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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 9:45:48 GMT
I joined a friend to go and have a listen to some blokes high end kit.
He had Wilson Audio Sophia series 3 Speakers. An Audio Research reference 5se Pre-Amp. Audio Research reference Phono 2se. VPI Prime Signature Turntable. Grahame Phantom 3 tone arm. Some rebuilt Benz MC cartridge. Mark Levinson 33 Mono blocks. Cables all Transparent.
We are expecting to be blown away he pops a Rebecca Pidgeon 300gm pressing on.
We both sit there with frowns on our faces something is wrong. We look at each other, my friend who is a Serbian and very much to the point, says to the bloke, "your right speaker is much softer than the left". The guy gets all huffy, "how can you say that i have spent a fortune and you come in here and start criticising my equipment".
Hold on a bit says my friend something is wrong just relax do you have a mono switch on that pre. I think so says the bloke, my friend goes over to the pre and hits the mono button. For a brief second the right speaker wakes up then goes back to what it was. Did you hear that, no says the bloke, there is something wrong with your hearing, every person I have invited over has always been blown away with my kit, how come you criticise why cant you just enjoy the music.
Soon a heated argument is raging, I just stay shtum, these two blokes are at it hammer and tong. I know my friend he takes a back seat to no one. Eventually there is a lull, I pipe up jeez chaps we had better be going, remember Mike you promised your wife you would be back before 6. So off we went Mike still fuming the other chap as huffy as hell.
I have learned over the years just to keep my opinion to myself when listening to some of the guy's kit out out there. Unless directly asked if I find anything that might be of help in improving the sound.
One bloke a few years ago even wanted to punch me when I happened to mention that perhaps a Rotel Amp is not quite up to scratch driving a B&W 801. This Clown even said to me he uses a NAD 3020 with them, I give up.
Guess it takes all sorts, for the most part I keep quite and let the blokes gabber on about what expensive kit they have or have had. When directly asked I just say oh some DIY speakers, some entry level pre, some valve mono blocks I got for a song, some cheaper VDH cables, and a rega 2 and budget CD player.
Then just smile internally knowing that at least for me I would not swap it for any of the disappointing badly set up high end kit they have. Many times when asked I have made suggestions about the set up, and then fiddled around a bit with speaker placement and put a big smile on the blokes face.
It astounds me that guys can throw mega bucks at kit, and keep spending trying to get the thing to sound good, (always something wrong with it, solution spend more).
When some simple common sense will solve most of the problems they have. A lot of times the room sucks, and they are subject to WAF. Well if you cannot have a wife that puts up with your stuff that keeps you at home, out of the strip clubs, and off a bar stool, it is time to go it alone, or give up role over and stop wasting money.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 10:07:20 GMT
Some guy's have a childish attitude to such things. If somebody told me my system sounded crap, I'd probably laugh. You can always take an offended party's mind off the Hi-Fi by telling him his wife is ugly I guess.  |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 22, 2019 10:29:15 GMT
What's all this expensive gear for? massage his ego and status/sense of self esteem, or to actually improve his perception of the music he listens to? Rebecca Pidgeon's one of those audiophool 'artists' isn't she, so in this case I'd say the former?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 11:44:50 GMT
The Hi-Fi world certainly seems to attract more than its share of oversensitive inadequates who take any kind of negativity as a personal affront. As they say, 'if you can't stand the heat............
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 11:50:25 GMT
Another friend has just contacted me asking if I had an American plug to figure 8 cable. What for I said, oh to connect my kids X box to my power strip. I can help you with an adapter or with some plastic plugs I used to use to take power from the outlets on the back of those old Jap amps. As there is no earth you can use it on an existing figure 8. No he says I have an Audioquest figure 8 cable here and I need at least a hospital grade American plug. Where can I get one. You can get one from "Stinky", we call him Stinky because he has bad B/O. Stinky has a business he runs from home supplying all sorts of mods for Rega's, cables, plugs. etc. at silly prices. He has them at R700 that is about $50 US. Sh#t says my friend (No electrical wholesaler does them here import only). Well I will just have to spend the money, I want the best?  ? (for a kids X box) R700 here will get you a nice dinner for four at an Italian restaurant, with a couple of beers, and a bottle of wine for the ladies, plus a sweet for afters. Guess it takes all sorts. This bloke will obsess about a small scratch on the top of some piece of equipment hidden from site. "I know it is there Bud and it drives me mad". He buys an amp the other day cosmetically restores it, it had a few scratches and a small ding on the front. He aluminium welds up the ding, powder coats the whole casing, pad prints all the writing back on then sells it for two thirds of what he paid, not including the cost of the re-ferb. "Bud I cant sell a thing that is damaged like this what will people think of me". The irony of it all is that he is always broke at the end of the month, and his credit card is deep in the red. Oh yes I had to make two trips to the powder coaters a total of 110km helping him out with the stupid thing |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 22, 2019 12:35:37 GMT
The Hi-Fi world certainly seems to attract more than its share of oversensitive inadequates who take any kind of negativity as a personal affront. As they say, 'if you can't stand the heat...............get out of the valve amplifier showroom? |
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2019 16:22:42 GMT
Some guy's have a childish attitude to such things. If somebody told me my system sounded crap, I'd probably laugh. You can always take an offended party's mind off the Hi-Fi by telling him his wife is ugly I guess. Low emotional intelligence is an audiophile affliction. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 18:08:06 GMT
The Hi-Fi world certainly seems to attract more than its share of oversensitive inadequates who take any kind of negativity as a personal affront. As they say, 'if you can't stand the heat...............get out of the valve amplifier showroom?  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 19:09:09 GMT
Ahhhhh the MF A1 better than a George Foreman grill .......😁
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Post by alit on Feb 22, 2019 19:24:43 GMT
Aye some people are weird. If I have folk round I make a point of asking them to be honest, I’m always looking for constructive criticism.
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 22, 2019 19:43:32 GMT
At least they'll repair the Foreman grill under warranty
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Post by macca on Feb 23, 2019 8:31:05 GMT
Aye some people are weird. If I have folk round I make a point of asking them to be honest, I’m always looking for constructive criticism. Very much so. I can understand having some pride in it if you built it all yourself but if, like most of us, you just handed over some cash and then plugged it in, where is the emotional attachment coming from? Agree about the low emotional intelligence. There's a lot of that about. I alternate between feeling sorry for them and wanting to give them a hard slap. |
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Post by alit on Feb 23, 2019 8:46:52 GMT
Yeah, I remember at an Owston years ago, we all decided we’d be brutally honest with each other rather than being polite since we knew each other well enough. Only way to progress.
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Post by macca on Feb 23, 2019 9:07:50 GMT
There's been a couple of occasions I've heard very pricey systems sound terrible but not said anything as I didn't know the owners, who were friends of friends. Maybe they would have taken it on the chin but if you don't know them you don't know how they'll react so best to say nothing.
I have a friend who is a professional musician, known him almost 30 years, so he tells it to me like it is. Never had a situation where I thought it was good and he thought it was bad. Any criticism he's made has always been echoing what I already (secretly) thought, so I know he's a good guide.
One thing that does my head in is brand fanboys. Very few manufacturers who haven't made at least one piece of crap over the years and there's no single brand 'signature sound' that will suit everyones' tastes but they still come out with the 'If you don't like it you must be deaf or have an agenda' bullshit. Grow up!
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 23, 2019 9:22:29 GMT
One-brand forums are usually the worst enclaves for such types, but at least it keeps most of their output in one place and away from the rest of us. They do tend to venture out on pilgrimages elsewhere and act as a clique at times, but at least they are interacting with other non-devotees in those instances.
I haven’t kept up with Wigwam, but their adoption of the naim forum refugees would be interestung.
1. They may widen their scope and interact with others there, maybe even hearing other stuff.
2. They might just stay in their little ghetto and not feel safe enough to venture out
3. They may even shy away now that they have to operate outside of their one party state.
NB: I’m not having a pop at Naim or it’s fans. I only use them as an example because the closure of the official forum might throw up some insights.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 9:56:52 GMT
I've been to a couple of places where the focus was on the "prestige" of the gear rather than the performance. I have offered a mild opinion and seen the glint in their eyes turn to disappointment. However if they take the opinion and give it a whirl, they have been left happy.
If you piss on their "prestige parade" that's usually when you get the touchy audiophile syndrome.
If they are only after the best sound, they will take your advice or at least try it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 9:59:12 GMT
I find the Klipsch Community a one brand forum, to be a very polite and friendly crowd. They seem to be the exception, because they do not seem to shout from the roof tops that the Klipsch brand is the be all and end all. They seem to give all brands a fair shake, and seem to be music lovers above all, not box swapping Audiofools looking for the elusive Bat Fart. The discussions on there are certainly not full of braggarts like Audiogon for instance. Almost every thread on Audiogon turns into look at me look, look at what I got and, how much I spent etc.
I have a few musician friends they certainly do listen differently than the so called Audiophile, what ever that my imply.
They listen for instance to the timber of the instrument, the playing technique of the artist, the timing (most important), the emotional message the singer or instrumentalist is trying to convey. I have for ever listened to music in this manner, it certainly works for me when the music is more important than most things Audiophiles listen for.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 10:09:49 GMT
One-brand forums are usually the worst enclaves for such types, but at least it keeps most of their output in one place and away from the rest of us. They do tend to venture out on pilgrimages elsewhere and act as a clique at times, but at least they are interacting with other non-devotees in those instances. I haven’t kept up with Wigwam, but their adoption of the naim forum refugees would be interestung. 1. They may widen their scope and interact with others there, maybe even hearing other stuff. 2. They might just stay in their little ghetto and not feel safe enough to venture out 3. They may even shy away now that they have to operate outside of their one party state. NB: I’m not having a pop at Naim or it’s fans. I only use them as an example because the closure of the official forum might throw up some insights. You mean the Linn forum refugees Andrew ? Naim forum has recently moved to a new host i believe but hasn't closed afaik. |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 23, 2019 10:35:27 GMT
When posting on the Wam Linn threads (not so much in very recent times), I've tried to be respectful of the mindset there and also share how *i* was able to get what I thought was a good sound from the Linn products I sold. I don't think I was that controversial and if it helps owners to get better music reproduction, then why not?
The issues I've had were with the Harbeth User Group and the once AVI-centric HDD forum. The latter was dominated by Ashley James' claims for his tiny ADM9 totally trouncing all passive models and ATC actives in particular (maybe they were better in the mids, but no tiny box can give the scale of a larger model - AVI now have an ATC 100 sized three way coming out and guess what, these are loads better than the current DM12 - grrr!). The former I'd best not say anything about, but read a few threads and it should become obvious why so few post there (Harbeth audiophiles in the far east use vinyl and valves anyway, for a silky smooth warm 'tone')
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 23, 2019 11:03:05 GMT
One-brand forums are usually the worst enclaves for such types, but at least it keeps most of their output in one place and away from the rest of us. They do tend to venture out on pilgrimages elsewhere and act as a clique at times, but at least they are interacting with other non-devotees in those instances. I haven’t kept up with Wigwam, but their adoption of the naim forum refugees would be interestung. 1. They may widen their scope and interact with others there, maybe even hearing other stuff. 2. They might just stay in their little ghetto and not feel safe enough to venture out 3. They may even shy away now that they have to operate outside of their one party state. NB: I’m not having a pop at Naim or it’s fans. I only use them as an example because the closure of the official forum might throw up some insights. You mean the Linn forum refugees Andrew ? Naim forum has recently moved to a new host i believe but hasn't closed afaik. Sorry, yes I did. I guess I’m still lodged in the era where the two were so interlocked it was hard to separate them  |
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Post by macca on Feb 23, 2019 11:12:16 GMT
You seem to get extremes at either end. Like with the Linn LP12, there are people who go on every chance they get about how Sh#t it is and on the flip side you get people who get all offended if someone suggests its maybe not the best deck in the world. Everyone else just walks on by without making eye contact. Who gives a Sh#t what someone else is using to listen to their music? I mean I'm interested to know what other people use and what they think but I'm not going to get all emotional about it.
Supposedly some bloke who designed the thing got screwed over by Linn. All this was 40 odd years ago. And people still get all het up about it even though they never knew him or anyone concerned and have just read about it somewhere. They don't even know if it's true. But they still get full of self-righteous anger over it. So weird.
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 23, 2019 11:17:32 GMT
When posting on the Wam Linn threads (not so much in very recent times), I've tried to be respectful of the mindset there and also share how *i* was able to get what I thought was a good sound from the Linn products I sold. I don't think I was that controversial and if it helps owners to get better music reproduction, then why not? The issues I've had were with the Harbeth User Group and the once AVI-centric HDD forum. The latter was dominated by Ashley James' claims for his tiny ADM9 totally trouncing all passive models and ATC actives in particular (maybe they were better in the mids, but no tiny box can give the scale of a larger model - AVI now have an ATC 100 sized three way coming out and guess what, these are loads better than the current DM12 - grrr!). The former I'd best not say anything about, but read a few threads and it should become obvious why so few post there (Harbeth audiophiles in the far east use vinyl and valves anyway, for a silky smooth warm 'tone') It was only by reading your posts about AVI and Harbeth forums that I looked in on them, I kinda expected you to be exaggerating (only because that seemed to be too daft to be for real). I actually found that your reports were understating the madness. Forums raise for me the notions of groupthink and cult behaviour. Both those examples seem to fit the mould to some extent. In Ashley’s case you could see so many of his thoughts and ideas being adopted by more prominent posters. Once he had some dominant followers in place, they seemed to be a key element in “conversion” of others or even driving away of “non-believers”. I particularly noted the way others picked up and ran with the notion of passive speakers being seen and referred to as “legacy” designs, simply because Ash decided they had been superseded by actives. Soon you get to a stage where the dominant ideas aren’t challenged because all that’s left are followers or a few who daren’t speak up. From that point, you tend to generate the one-brand devotees who either stick to their own or become the audio evangelists. It’s a pity because the idea that one brand has all the answers is statistically very unlikely, before we even get to individual tastes. It alos stifles development and design innovation because there is no criticism to feed improvement. So in effect, the disciples help stifle the thing they seek to serve. Ever decreasing circles springs to mind. |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 23, 2019 18:27:36 GMT
exactly.
We all benefit from the illumination of criticism.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 18:41:34 GMT
There are some, of course, who are beyond or incapable of accepting it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 18:59:50 GMT
Alas that's true Mr K.
I've nothing against critics as long as they don't criticise me or mine ..... I am who I am, I like what I like.
Hypocritical ? Yes because I do like to criticise a bit. 😇👿
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Post by dsjr on Feb 23, 2019 19:39:49 GMT
Re. The LP12. It's my view that Ivor appropriated a design that itself was largely appropriated from Thorens. the TD150 is so damned close in far too many ways imo. Sure the RD11/LP12 beaing was a spindle with tapered and rounded tip, but Thorens went over to this in 1972 when the RD11 came along (there was a captive ball before). I regard the original RD11/LP12 as a 'blue printed stage 2' version of the TD150.
Thing is now, 'better' decks tend to cost a hell of a lot more and in the Uk, nobody takes the S[acedeck seriously, 'cos it lacks the jewellery finish of it's far dearer equivalents like the Raven One and similar.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 20:11:11 GMT
Ivor is just a business man and a fecking copycat. No talent!
S.
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Post by antonio on Feb 24, 2019 5:12:09 GMT
I remember talking about a dCS Rossini, and a certain member of another forum saying the sound was too clinical even though he had never heard this particular model, but was going by a previous equipment he had heard. I tried telling him we did not care for the companies early products, but the sound had moved on, yet in his head the they were to forever be too clinical.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 5:59:01 GMT
Alas that's true Mr K. I've nothing against critics as long as they don't criticise me or mine ..... I am who I am, I like what I like. Hypocritical ? Yes because I do like to criticise a bit. 😇👿 I have been around the block far to many times and am old enough to actually not care about what others think or say about me. These things are out of my control I try my best to be Stoic, not easy at times, practice makes perfect. Hypocrisy is the one thing that gets my goat, I am working on that, it is never to old to learn. Pointing it out is a useless exercise, might as well reason with a Gold Fish for all the good it does. I see far to many people trapped in the merry go round of their egos, they are never satisfied. Used to find this when I rode motorcycles, they had to have the fastest, latest and greatest, sometimes they had two or three new bikes a year. I was just in it for the freedom, the fresh air, and above all riding alone on those early mornings, that were cold and misty, when my hands and face were freezing, and my two stroke was in it's element, howling away, winding up and down the mountain passes. Who cares if it was a 15 year old 350. Same with audio it is about the pleasure it gives me, even if is the music coming out my bedside squawk box. |
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Post by macca on Feb 24, 2019 7:26:12 GMT
There's a difference between offering constructive criticism and just being plain nasty. The problem is with the people who get off on being nasty and the people who are so insecure they cannot accept constructive criticism.
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