Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 1, 2018 9:00:24 GMT
I’ve started asking myself this question lately. Having a few bits of kit to hand has reminded me of the vastly differing priorities most of them exhibit.
I am going to try and name a few and then rank them in order if importance’s to me in order to understand my own needs better.
Off the top of my head we have:
1. Realistic scale: Two elements to this, Do you need a huge soundstage in terms of width, depth or both? Do you need the sort of volume and impact that real musicians produce. If you do, then it’s likely you will be talking big speakers and a room to accommodate them, as well as a room that isn’t hrough the wall to neighbours. You will also need either powerful amps, efficient speakers or both. Of course there are many levels to both elements, but it’s good to know how much of either you need to be happy.
2. Frequency response. None this can take many paths. Obviously a fast response is often held as the optimum but does it require a few deviations such as upper bass lift to create timing. Does increased treble give an impression of detail? A big can of worms, but perhaps good to work out whether you can live with certain. Variations better than others.
3. Timing and rhythm: This one I’m not so sure about because I don’t really know what produces this quality. I only know it when I hear it. So far, I have often found it is bought at the expense of soundstage depth. I also think it may be bought at the expense of a flat response. Upper bass lift is probably the most likely element.
So for me, I’d say the timing comes first. If it’s not snappy and rhythmic, I don’t usually enjoy it.
Next up is soundstage height and width (let’s call it 2d scale). If it isn’t spacious, I don’t enjoy it, but the 3rd dimension I will happily live without in order to get that “up close and personal” feel to music.
Frequency response is less important. In fact I think I prefer a slightly phat upper bass to give the music a bit of kick. I seem less sensitive to a bit of treble lift and actually seem to find it stimulating. The only thing I seem allergic too is weedy upper bass and midrange hardness.
Finally we have the sort of volume and scale we get with live music. For one thing you’d end up with hearing damage if you indulged in this regularly. Secondly, it would piss off your neighbours within minutes. Finally, I couldn’t listen this way for King sessions, it’s just too much. So I’m very happy with room filling sound and no more.
My priorities are borne out by my favourite products and how I’ve combined them. My favourite Xerxes deck and Exposure amps both have the frequency response and timing that creates the up close and personal feel. My Spicas and planets generate massive soundstages without excess depth sucking the life away.
This is all seen from my own map of reality so many of the terms used may mean different things to others. The point of it was not to find agreement t or even common ground, it was to stumulate others to think about what they like in order to hopefully get them to recognise what facets of sound they are seeking.
To me, recreation of live music is unrealistic because most recordings were never live anyway.They were laid down track by track in an un-natural acoustic with many instruments only producing sound via electronics. Add to that the difficulty in playing at live music levels in terms of db, bass etc and it’s all a set of compromises to me. YMMV.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 9:20:27 GMT
That's a lot to respond to . I may address the various points later, but one thought crossed my mind. Knowing what you seem to like from speakers, I wondered if you'd heard the Reference 3a MM Da Capo speakers? I'd have thought thay'd be right up your street, offering what the Spica's seem to, but more of it all round. I've heard the Da Capo's up against another of my old favourites, the Sonus Faber Electa speakers which surprisingly, were completely blown away by the Da Capo's. The sound from the Da Capo's seems almost holographic and hangs in the air in front of you with huge soundstage depth. It really is a bit uncanny.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 1, 2018 9:29:34 GMT
That's a lot to respond to . I may address the various points later, but one thought crossed my mind. Knowing what you seem to like from speakers, I wondered if you'd heard the Reference 3a MM Da Capo speakers? I'd have thought thay'd be right up your street, offering what the Spica's seem to, but more of it all round. I've heard the Da Capo's up against another of my old favourites, the Sonus Faber Electa speakers which surprisingly, were completely blown away by the Da Capo's. The sound from the Da Capo's seems almost holographic and hangs in the air in front of you with huge soundstage depth. It really is a bit uncanny. One of my favourites. Very much like Spica. My mate had a pair which I thought produced his best ever sound. He had them on loan and didn’t keep them. He did rate them, but felt they were too expensive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 9:35:04 GMT
Yes.......The Ref 3 De Cappos are quite magical, i regret not buying a mint piano black pair that came up at AOS at an absolute steal a couple years back.
The wee Dulcettes are also quite superb.....same but less !!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 9:52:37 GMT
Yes.......The Ref 3 De Cappos are quite magical, i regret not buying a mint piano black pair that came up at AOS at an absolute steal a couple years back.The wee Dulcettes are also quite superb.....same but less !!! Me too. I wanted those, but was as usual, too skint!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 1, 2018 10:41:10 GMT
The ones I heard had been modded slightly. I am led to believe the crossover is very simple. Thisnpair had a massive capacitor (paper in oil?) inside. It had come looose and my mate had to refit it, which also put him off, so to be completely fair, I haven’t heard a stock pair. I can’t see it being a massively different speaker in stock form though.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 13:00:01 GMT
Ok, here we go....its such a personal thing and depends on your ears and what you have heard on your audio journey. In my case I have heard very few different pieces of equipment, I keep stuff for a long time and only try and improve it by diy means. So maybe my view will be dismissed by many of the readers. But I have played in a lot of bands over the last 27years with 1000's of gigs under my belt (electric and acoustic). So I agree with Andrew that the live music performance can never be played back like it was at the gig. It can be changed to sound nearer to it but there lies the magic. For me the most important thing is retrieval of detail and I am not ashamed to say it. There. But there are big BUTS. It can not be the type of detail that you find harsh or fatiguing (like treble lift). So what brings more detail ? Reduced noise, minimum phase altering components, fewer components to do the same job ? Reducing noise is not easy without the rising complexity of feedback voltage regulation. Better power supply components ? I like an EI transformer for its ability to pass fewer mains nasties over from the primary winding to the secondary. But they have bigger hum fields so one step forward and one step back unless cited carefully. I am certainly a convert to the simplicity is best way of thinking but only when it is better than other ways. Speakers without crossover I like very much, semi omni also. Semi omni don't throw the sound at you like p&s speakers I have heard. All good for a relaxing sound. My Naim CD3.5 without the output stage is better to me as the sound is more detailed and less harsh / fatiguing at the same time Seems I have dropped lucky with this and the dac chip is suitable to use in this way. Got rid of 3 opamps, tens of resistors and capacitors and relay in each channel. Not to mention two power supply eliminated from the equation. Tone is also very important to me and the space around the instruments. Hearing reverb and decay from instruments I have never heard before is definitely one of the biggest buzzes I get from the diy process when things go well. Not bothered so much about table top flat frequency response. If a hump was obvious I would do something about it though. Soundstage an holographic qualities are a tough one for me. If I could get more of it without affecting my most important parameters then I surely would. Having grown up on Naim though I am not particularly well versed (although my current kit is much better than naim in this regard). I have considered sticking a cathode follower buffer on the end of my now straight out of the dac chip cdp. That may bring me increased soundstage depth etc. Who knows. Dynamics and slam in my view must come from big power supplies with low impedance especially in the power amps. Back to phase and flat impedance - Andrew I don't know if you read the very long thread on diyaudio from the designer of Spica speakers (JBeau)?Very very interesting as regards phase and flat impedance of regulators right past the limits of human hearing. Not everything is about low noise and flat frequency response.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 1, 2018 14:54:20 GMT
Ok, here we go....its such a personal thing and depends on your ears and what you have heard on your audio journey. In my case I have heard very few different pieces of equipment, I keep stuff for a long time and only try and improve it by diy means. So maybe my view will be dismissed by many of the readers. But I have played in a lot of bands over the last 27years with 1000's of gigs under my belt (electric and acoustic). So I agree with Andrew that the live music performance can never be played back like it was at the gig. It can be changed to sound nearer to it but there lies the magic. For me the most important thing is retrieval of detail and I am not ashamed to say it. There. But there are big BUTS. It can not be the type of detail that you find harsh or fatiguing (like treble lift). So what brings more detail ? Reduced noise, minimum phase altering components, fewer components to do the same job ? Reducing noise is not easy without the rising complexity of feedback voltage regulation. Better power supply components ? I like an EI transformer for its ability to pass fewer mains nasties over from the primary winding to the secondary. But they have bigger hum fields so one step forward and one step back unless cited carefully. I am certainly a convert to the simplicity is best way of thinking but only when it is better than other ways. Speakers without crossover I like very much, semi omni also. Semi omni don't throw the sound at you like p&s speakers I have heard. All good for a relaxing sound. My Naim CD3.5 without the output stage is better to me as the sound is more detailed and less harsh / fatiguing at the same time Seems I have dropped lucky with this and the dac chip is suitable to use in this way. Got rid of 3 opamps, tens of resistors and capacitors and relay in each channel. Not to mention two power supply eliminated from the equation. Tone is also very important to me and the space around the instruments. Hearing reverb and decay from instruments I have never heard before is definitely one of the biggest buzzes I get from the diy process when things go well. Not bothered so much about table top flat frequency response. If a hump was obvious I would do something about it though. Soundstage an holographic qualities are a tough one for me. If I could get more of it without affecting my most important parameters then I surely would. Having grown up on Naim though I am not particularly well versed (although my current kit is much better than naim in this regard). I have considered sticking a cathode follower buffer on the end of my now straight out of the dac chip cdp. That may bring me increased soundstage depth etc. Who knows. Dynamics and slam in my view must come from big power supplies with low impedance especially in the power amps. Back to phase and flat impedance - Andrew I don't know if you read the very long thread on diyaudio from the designer of Spica speakers (JBeau)?Very very interesting as regards phase and flat impedance of regulators right past the limits of human hearing. Not everything is about low noise and flat frequency response. I think I could do with re-reading John Bau’s thoughts on Spica because they absolutely work for me. Phase is something I don’t really understand, but hopefully I can still get much from his words.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 15:05:52 GMT
Interview with John Beau HEREThe long and boring (not to me) thread he started on diyaudio about phase and regulators HEREA very clever and interesting chap.
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 1, 2018 15:53:40 GMT
Interview with John Beau HEREThe long and boring (not to me) thread he started on diyaudio about phase and regulators HEREA very clever and interesting chap. Thanks for the link, Stu, Definitely a clever guy. Pity he hasn’t made more speakers. They are really special
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 22:19:13 GMT
For me it would be:
Holographic Imagery Vocal Presence Dynamic Contrast
Not too fussed about anything else such as pace, timing, top-end extending to the heavens or a bottom-end plumbing the fiery pits of hell. I listen on headphones and the qualities above are what give the most satisfaction. The same qualities would also apply with speakers.
Always had a bit of a thing for imagery. Years (decades) ago I discovered an unusual speaker set-up that produced the most amazing imagery: center vocal images were rock-solid and palpable. Images right and left existed in their own time and space. Used to freak me out. And all from a lowly pair of Castle Richmonds.
These give a bit of an idea as regards sound qualities. The last one is just laughable in terms of the sense space and depth it offers, and all from a lowly MP3 6M file.
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Post by macca on Nov 1, 2018 22:30:02 GMT
1. Realistic scale: Realistic to the studio? Or to a gig? realistic to the studio then flat 20hz to 20Khz with no shortage of power an current and you're there. So big speakers and amps in a treated room.
2. Frequency response. The idea is you design your speaker to measure flat anechoically and then when you get it into the room you get room gain in the bass and absorption in the treble which balances out the way we hear which is we are more sensitive to the midrange frequencies than we are to the bass. So it makes sense to do that. Not to say designing by ear is going to be worse but you can think you've got it right and then you listen to one particular recording and it's way off. It needs a lot of trial and error. Been there and done it.
3. Timing and rhythm: Yes that's a tricky one. I've heard a couple of speakers that have just been fundamentally wrong. (Wharfedale Delta 30 for e.g) But mostly it isn't the speaker's fault. Needs a thread all on it's own that one. I have some theories about that.
Next up is soundstage height and width - depends so much on the recording even before you get to the kit and then the room. It's nice if you can get it and it is possible to have it amazing - 3D - if it is there on the recording. Personally it isn't a deal breaker for me. Other things are more important (and easier to improve).
Frequency response is less important. I also like a slightly phat bass. And I like to hear those cymbals tinkle. And the bass should drive the music, not the mids. But I think a flat frequency response is important to get this as I said before. Finally we have the sort of volume and scale we get with live music. - Acoustic or amplified? Acoustic you can pretty much do with certain big speakers. Big Tannoy and JBL will both do that, like the kick drum is in the room.
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