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Post by dsjr on May 6, 2018 8:33:06 GMT
Greetings again. Hope this time we can talk about just the gear  |
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Post by antonio on May 6, 2018 9:04:09 GMT
Hi Dave, welcome and nice to see you've joined up.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 6, 2018 11:07:55 GMT
Greetings again. Hope this time we can talk about just the gear Completely agree. It really shouldn't be hard on a hifi forum, but it somehow doesn't always pan out that way on so many of them. I have written it large in the forum title because I want it to "trump" everything else and stay there as a constant reminder. Great to have you here. For a forum about "the gear", it's great to have someone who knows so much about the subject and is willing to share it  |
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Post by dsjr on May 6, 2018 13:17:34 GMT
Call it an Aspergic need Nobody wants to know about mid 20th century chiming clocks these days, so HiFi will just have to do
P.S. Garrard had a subsidiary making clocks from an electric model to a single train basic type to elaborate triple-chime models. At their best, they were solid movements in pretty decent cases by and large, but they suffered after WW2 due to cheaper German equivalents coming in and folded in the early 50's sadly. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 6, 2018 13:38:34 GMT
It's going to be interesting to see who joins here and how they fare. I'm hoping there will be enough people whose main interest is the gear itself to sustain a decent community. It won't be a place for pathologically argumentative types because I want it to be pleasant to frequent. You shouldn't be attacked for expressing your opinion on hifi anyway. Hifi has been a big source of pleasure for me and it's that I want to share. At first I didn't want to run a forum at all. Less so when it started to move further and further away from hifi. Then I began to think about what I did want. And that was to talk almost solely about hifi with other like-minded people. Let's see if we can attract some more "good eggs", Willy Wonka style |
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Post by pauld on May 10, 2018 20:17:44 GMT
Hi Dave and welcome. I still think ES14’s sound better with the plugs out |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 10, 2018 20:41:46 GMT
Hi Dave and welcome. I still think ES14’s sound better with the plugs out And I'm on the fence.... Mine used to hang out a bit |
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Post by dsjr on May 10, 2018 20:43:16 GMT
They boom with the plugs out, at least the later ones do and I have Robin M himself to back me up - so there  It's 25 years since I sold mine, but these are another speaker I'd like to try again, knowing what I now know... |
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Post by pauld on May 10, 2018 22:11:48 GMT
I never had any boom, obviously Robin was wrong too haha  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 10, 2018 22:26:59 GMT
I never had any boom, obviously Robin was wrong too haha Apparently there was a bit of controversy over those bungs. Robin wanted to use fox fur initially........but he opted to leave the bungs out when he got into trouble from Basil Brush..... BOOM BOOM! |
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Post by pauld on May 10, 2018 23:37:43 GMT
Lol
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Post by dsjr on May 11, 2018 8:10:55 GMT
Groan....
The sad thing was, after the take-over, the ES14's doubled in price very quickly from around £450pr to £899 I recall. killed them as no further work was done on the design...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 11, 2018 8:46:08 GMT
That's crazy. I didn't realise they became so expansive.. I still recall buying my pair quite early on , probably October 1987? The pride had just gone from £299 to £350. I'm not sure about any other changes but I think the tweeter plate became more seamless and I definitley remember the bungs were glued in place on the newer version.
Oddly I was only given a chance to hear the old ones at Sound Org, I guess I bought semi-blind.
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Post by dsjr on May 11, 2018 10:15:37 GMT
A long story, but knowing Robin well from his (KJ) Audiomaster days, I had some insight into what he was doing and Chesham was only just down the road from Tring The first ones were open ported, free-standing away from walls and with metal tweeter plate. The sound of this era was smooth and self effacing in a kind of Celestion SL6 way (I wonder if the cones and maybe tweeter domes came from Celestion, looking back?). Once HiFi review magazine got interested, Robin abandoned the idea to use three core mains cabling for the speaker cables (hot bass, hot tweeter and common return) and decided to tweak them for Linn-Naim dealers, as with their stable support, he could reliably build his business. The bass unit magnet had it's flux reduced a bit, but this made them inclined to boom through the port (Paul), so the foam 'resistance' was added, neatly glued in at first. The tweeter plate became a precision plastic moulding too. Since dealers-who-know-better started peeling the bungs out and making a hideous mess around the neat glue-line, Robin left them removable if preferred. My compromise was to put the bungs in sideways, which gave a tad more weight and warmth, but didn't allow them to sound off on synth bass lines Shortly after, Robin developed the bass unit further, adding the 'phase plug' to improve behaviour at the 'crossover point.' The output up there was reduced so rather than add a resistor to the tweeter, his compromise was to change the cap value to bring it in later (2.2uF from the previous 3.3uF). This put the characteristic response bump sparkle into the metal dome tweeter and replacing the cap with a 'better' one increased the output still further. Since most owners were using LP12 based front ends with smoooooth cartridges, it didn't matter so much unless a digital source was used. I used my final pair with an ARC SP14 and Tube Technology Genesis mono's and this was amazing until the power amps ate their quads of EL34's after a year or so, which were being thrashed to 100W (these amps would have been superb set to 50W I feel looking back). Just before Robin allowed himself to be head-hunted by Mordaunt Short, he discussed refining the tweeter (I think magnesium plating was one option but I can't be sure), but this never happened and once he joined M-S, I understand he was totally removed from the Epos side. A few years later, he left M-S when it kind of collapsed and he asked for Epos back, to be refused and told he didn't understand what Epos was all about.... I believe he went to Mission for a while before abandoning domestic audio and moving further back into the speaker industry and I lost touch with him after this in the mid 90's. One telling thing for me regarding my total lack of business acumen. Robin never priced the ES14's to make huge profits, but M-S did and maybe a grand the pair was it's proper level in top end terms. It's not as if Robin wasn't generous with dealer margins either... lastly, Robin told me the ES14 bass driver factory cost was £25 of which £20 was the casting and magnet I think. The Naim SBL mk1 driver supplied raw to Naim cost them £6! Admittedly Naim added the ugly pole piece and covered the pressed driver frame in damping pads, but a replacement retail was £75 at least. I'm not sure where Naim got the mk2 SBL driver from, but at least it had a cast basket frame I believe and the price went up to nigh on a ton I remember. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 11, 2018 12:02:12 GMT
Dave, I have to say that a bloody fantastic post, so full of information that isn't out here ANYWHERE. I am loving reading your posts and your appearance and contributions here have made me so glad I started a forum in the first place. It's had some pretty dismal beginnings and hiccups but with posts like yours it's made me happy to have put up with all that.
The information and industry insight you have is incredible. You have, and always will have, completely free rein to post anything you like here and I guarantee anyone even thinking of turning up to spoil the party will be given short shrift.
I'm ONLY interested in the gear and probably always have been, although it took me far too long to realise it. The history of our hifi industry and the products that were born from it are such a passion for me.
I really wish I'd met Robin Marshall, John Farlowe, Julian Vereker and Roy Gandy amongst others. I did meet Max Townshend. Dennis Morecroft and one or two others, but reading your posts kinda fills in that part of me that never got to interact with people that I'd love to have met.
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Post by dsjr on May 11, 2018 17:14:53 GMT
Some of those you mention were genuinely lovely people, although I wish Dennis M had stopped continuously tinkering with his products - every time I went to visit Jimmy H (three or four times a year at the time), he had another mod done to his DNM amp, so no two batches were ever quite the same back then.. Max T is a large man with large personality - I liked him a lot and he could be very honest when he mislaid his sales hat - Another one with master tapes to compare his Rock turntable products to and he was well aware how good CD could be in comparison with said masters...
JV and RG? JV was alright but a businessman rather than a proper design engineer. he cobbled his products well and made a huge success of it, but I remember him as a bit of a penny pincher who'd charge the earth if he felt he could get away with it, including some photo's he'd taken and had a special processing done to deepen the moody effect (I forget the technique). RG was smug and when he was in total control of Rega, the entire company was almost insufferable in its attitude. They KNEW they had something good going on and although never unfriendly, they regarded us as necessary insects to do the job for them I felt. This changed completely in the 90's when others took over the day-to-day running of the firm and their sales manager who posts on YouTube is an ex-colleague of mine from Northampton days - you think I know a bit, it's NOTHING compared to this chap who picks up info from all over the industry.....
You know, I don't know if all this is therapeutic to me or depressing... When I was king of my little dem room, I loved being able to share what I'd discovered by demonstration as well as words. I can't dem the crap I come out with now, so can only talk about it from experiences at the time! I hope I have most of it basically right, but obviously memories can sometimes play tricks...
People I wish I'd spend proper time with (and one I never met at all) were Quad's Peter Walker, who I understand was a bit of a rebel in his day, but happy to have design assistance where necessary and the other who was so kindly and patient to me on the phone, was Spendor's Spencer Hughes. Dorothy his wife used to answer the phone - always cheerful and helpful and Spen himself would happily chat on the phone, offering advice and NEVER EVER patronising. When discussing the bass of BC1's and the rise and rise of simpler alternatives, he always listened patiently and with understanding, explaining that the BC1's success prevented any huge changes as the BBC bought a good few hundred pairs as general mid level monitoring boxes. I believe he put a lot of thought into the SP1 which eventually replaced them on the domestic market, as the tighter bass sound and higher power handling on rock music was in a different league, giving very little away to the BC1 in the mids where this latter does have something special imo on reproduction of acoustic instruments. Friend Alex has a pair of SP1mk1's and they do sound superb to me and look so much better too - my BC2's look terrible now. The whole BBC stodgy bass came of some Rogers models and the ripe/lush Spendors which arrived after Spen's passing I think, coupled with the need for free space use rather than tight to a wall.
One company kind of related to the above I'm having a hell of a time with is Harbeth! I dare not say too much, but the owner has been shocked to the core with the runaway success of the 'Anniversary' models (I suspect because all caps sound the same as all good amps do when level matched to 0.2db - why don't all dealers have an oscilloscope in the dem room to show clipping?) - take a £3500 speaker, put in posh poly caps with your name on them, add WBT sockets and bling trims on the tweeters and offer a wacky veneer adding £800 to the cost - oh and fancy label - they've gone bananas worldwide it seems and already good sales have taken off even more on all anniversary issues. I'm far too much of a maverick to post on their forum now as I rock the carefully steered boat, but the attitude there even puts Rega of old in the shade I find. Good luck to them,but I fear my SHL5's in storage will have to go as I'm not in that safe-sound vibe any more and my geriatric Spendors can sing out when asked to (on a good day!!) |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 17:33:00 GMT
Was Roy Gandy's parents wealthy?
S.
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Post by dsjr on May 11, 2018 17:45:44 GMT
Dunno Shane. RG's not short of a bob or three, but more than that I have no idea...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 11, 2018 19:53:15 GMT
You tend to forum a picture of people from pics, comments and interviews. RG gave a couple of long interviews and I came away expecting someone quite humble I always liked JV's daring. He wasn't afraid to make things that were different. The SBLs were a special speaker for me and until Roksan Darius, there was nothing much like them. The Aro too was a bit of a daring move, then there was the Naim electrostatic. Oh, and the boats! Wish I'd met him, As I was a Townshend devotee back in the late 80s I did chat to Max over he phone quite a bit and also met him at the Penta Show. He really is a character and I loved the chats. I didn't know he was Pete Townshend's cousin til he told me. Great bloke and very happy to share info that others would keep closely guarded. Good ears too IMO. There are some real good guys out there. Bob from Neat springs to mind. He had the best used hifi shop imaginable until his speakers took off. I was a regular I'd really like to meet Haider from Sonneteer too. I've only exchanged emails and PMs with him but his genuine interest, decency and love of what he makes shine through. Makes me proud to own Sonneteer products. |
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Post by dsjr on May 11, 2018 20:09:58 GMT
Bob's second hand shop is where my Dual 701 came from thirty years ago. At the same time, I bought a Decca Export for a pal and it turned out to have a mint VDH diamond fitted so a fantastic £50 worth at the time...
Roy G is a pleasant chap to talk to, don't get me wrong. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 8:51:40 GMT
Hi Dave!
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Post by pauld on Jul 2, 2018 11:44:30 GMT
That is really interesting information about Robin and Epos.
As Dave knows, I preferred the sound of the Epos without the plugs as I found them too thin and bass light without. I agree however, that with them out, if you had the wrong amplification, they did have a tendency to boom a little.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 2, 2018 11:52:36 GMT
Whatever gets the music to your ears really. I'm just taking some kind of weak stand on the port bungs 'cos I chatted with Robin a few times about it. That's why he stopped gluing the things in so people could make their own decisions.
I'm having to come to terms with the fact that my memories of this stuff are old now and mainly when the products were new or just a few years old. I had NS1000's THIRTY YEARS AGO for example and replaced them with the first pair of ES14's which weren't as good to start with and became better in many ways after amp and source upgrades (I now realise the 1000's would have improved too, but there you are...)
I only use the Control 1's for amp tests. but bloody hell they're good. No screechy vocals, top is muted if anything with no tinsel and what bass there is is tuneful and hints at going lower than they can. Great £45 used for what I need of them!
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Post by pauld on Jul 2, 2018 13:04:53 GMT
I thought the Epos were excellent speakers and a bargain in reality.
My Focal's are better in every way, but then for nearly 10x the original retail price of the Epos they should be, not that I paid that for them.
The Focal's were harder to get 'right', but now they are they sound stupendously good.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 2, 2018 13:42:26 GMT
That is really interesting information about Robin and Epos. As Dave knows, I preferred the sound of the Epos without the plugs as I found them too thin and bass light without. I agree however, that with them out, if you had the wrong amplification, they did have a tendency to boom a little. I wonder if rooms have a lot to do with boom or no boom. The port frequency is going to excite some and not others. Mine boomed and droned like crazy without bungs a S aomdid the earlier ones in Sound Org if placed in the smaller dem room. They are surely a great speaker to try and tweak today. Those cabinet side wallls are not rigid, ten stuffing is too “generous and then there’s the port. Even with those issues, it’s a magical speaker. Just imagine what a small improvement might bring. |
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