Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 10, 2018 13:52:40 GMT
Mine has never been worse. How yours?
I’ve been playing with two turntables today.
A Mission 775 with their version of the Jelco SA250 and a brand new AT91
A Revolver with Their version of the Jelco SA250 and another brand new AT91.
I play an album side then switch decks, which takes about a minute. Then I listen to the other deck. I’m aware of differences, but cannot retain the sound I’ve just left behind, even after a minute. One deck may be better than the other, but I’m no longer in any position to tell.
Is it auditory memory, or do I just not listen to sonics in the way I used to? I’m really not sure but both decks play music well and the sonic foibles are too unimportant for me to care which I listen to.
Rapid AB comparisons just aren’t possible when you have to unplug stuff. If it was two line level sources, I’d probably have an easier time comparing.
The reason in banging on about this is because I and most others recall sound from ages ago and compare with things we’ve heard subsequently in different rooms, systems etc and with ears that are now many years older. Not very reliable if I can’t carry a sound for a minute, is it? “Gone in 60 Seconds” sounds appropriate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 14:42:10 GMT
I'm the opposite I think. Once a piece of equipment has left an impression with me, I tend never to forget that. I can remember the effect on the sound of even just an interconnect cable. Pickup cartridges leave a huge impression, I can assemble in my head the sound of say, a Decca or an SPU or any other cartridge I've used.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 15:16:06 GMT
I tend to have a good memory for every recording I play for the first time after the change. Once I play that recording a few times I forget what it sounded like before.
I once had a good experiment with transformers. Whilst everything was playing I picked up the transformers one by one and move them about within the constraints of the wiring (transformers were un bolted and cable ties cut. Was a very rewarding exercise especially as I could hear the changes whilst listening all be it not in the ideal listening position.
You need two copies of the LP and a way to have both TT's wired up and a switch.
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Post by dsjr on Oct 10, 2018 15:35:05 GMT
When I compared lots of turntables forty years ago when the LP12 was vying for pole position, after fifteen minutes demming I couldn't tell any difference at all. If you concentrate, all faculties disappear I find. taking a break and returning and on to the next ten to fifteen minutes... Listening less formally and much is revealed - and NOT over a fortnight either, which some serial borrowers used to tell me... Subsequent decades weren't so fraught, as dems were less in-yer-face comparisons I remember and far more relaxing over a cuppa and so on.
The two decks you have were in a similar tier I remember and the AT91, although I love it for the money, is hardly a transparent 'wide open' sound that may show subtle timbral shading - neither is the 95E to be honest. You'd really need a 520 or possibly 530 to really hear the differences and as the arms are so similar, you're probably hearing them more than the decks they're mounted on.
My IC-150's have switching for the two phono inputs to the same stage (extra layers on the selector for this purpose), but you'd be getting stressed doing it so I wouldn't recommend it, especially as I bet neither deck runs totally true to speed, so you'd get errors there...
Westie, which deck do you like USING? The Revolver used to have a less than perfect finished bearing, although thirty plus years of intermittent use will have polished it down by now. Which deck can you get new belts for? In silent grooves, which one rumbles or drones more (that Airpax motor is crap really with a standard phase arrangement, but was very VERY cheap at the time and Linn and Rega used it, so all was ok..... Piano notes, do either waver randomly aside from eccentricities in the disc itself. Bass 'tunes,' any difference or are both one-mote or highly tuneful, especially on synth bass?
I could go on. The 'tune-dem' as explained on the Linn site has never let me down, but some men have difficulty with it as so many of us are tone-deaf apparently.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 10, 2018 17:09:17 GMT
I’ve spent all day blissfully messing round with turntables. It’s a great question, Dave. Truth is, I just love Revolvers and always have. Sure, I know my Sony with its OC9 easily bests it sonically, but I’m still drawn to listen to the Revolver. Every time I’ve heard one over the years, I’ve enjoyed them. They put me at ease in a way many decks don’t. Pinks for instance piss me right off, despite many impressive sonic traits.
I played both decks to my wife, who also preferred the revolver. We both kinda suspect the Mission has slightly better sonics but somehow it all just hangs together more naturally on the Revolver.
I think I’ve gone from an extreme of only listening critically to the opposite one of never listening that way. I think I’m far happier this way. I’m going to stick with the approach of how something makes me feel, rather than analysing the sound. It seems to serve me well.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 10, 2018 17:17:11 GMT
I'm the opposite I think. Once a piece of equipment has left an impression with me, I tend never to forget that. I can remember the effect on the sound of even just an interconnect cable. Pickup cartridges leave a huge impression, I can assemble in my head the sound of say, a Decca or an SPU or any other cartridge I've used. Cartridges are definitely the most characterful of hifi components, it’s like they have real personalities. Hell, they have more personality than most people I worked with in the Public Sector! You also tend to love or hate them: Supex, Denon, AT = Love Ortofon = Hate Goldring = too bland to care. Just my opinion, and like people, it would be a boring world if we all liked then same personalities. A lot more people would be lonely for one thing! |
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Post by macca on Oct 10, 2018 17:45:10 GMT
IIRC studies have shown we have about 4 seconds to retain the sound, which is why they recommend fast switching. But that's if you are trying to determine if there is any difference between two items where the difference, if it exists, is very slight.
If you trying to decide which you prefer that's a whole different ballgame. For me I like to spend a long time just listening, couple of weeks, then swap round.
Like Geoff says I think we always keep an 'impression' of sound long term but it isn't specific, it wouldn't help you in a blind test of cables for example. Added to that we tend to think that we remember things far more accurately than we actually do.
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Post by dsjr on Oct 10, 2018 18:00:27 GMT
Westie, Ortofon vary the tone with many models and they can design to order it seems. Compare an SPU to a 2m Blue for total extremes for example  The 540mk2 or Super OM40 was in a different plane to an OM10 or 510mk2. Clever really, juggling with parts that cost relatively little to make a package costing hundreds (on many of their MC's back in my day, the packaging cost as much or more than the cartridge itself...). |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 18:00:52 GMT
I’ve spent all day blissfully messing round with turntables. It’s a great question, Dave. Truth is, I just love Revolvers and always have. Sure, I know my Sony with its OC9 easily bests it sonically, but I’m still drawn to listen to the Revolver. Every time I’ve heard one over the years, I’ve enjoyed them. They put me at ease in a way many decks don’t. Pinks for instance piss me right off, despite many impressive sonic traits. I played both decks to my wife, who also preferred the revolver. We both kinda suspect the Mission has slightly better sonics but somehow it all just hangs together more naturally on the Revolver. I think I’ve gone from an extreme of only listening critically to the opposite one of never listening that way. I think I’m far happier this way. I’m going to stick with the approach of how something makes me feel, rather than analysing the sound. It seems to serve me well. Good for you, Andrew. S. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 18:31:33 GMT
Westie, Ortofon vary the tone with many models and they can design to order it seems. Compare an SPU to a 2m Blue for total extremes for example I'm sure that's right. Ortofon have been at this game long enough to judge how to orient coils and magnets and what spec they should be to tailor the sound to produce specific characteristics. Of course there's more to it Like tip profile, suspension compliance and materials choices etc. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 10, 2018 19:17:53 GMT
I haven’t heard an SPU, but I have heard more than a dozen others and all have a slightly thin blandness to them that makes them the audio equivalent of rice cakes. All the MMs I’ve heard have completely sucked. The best MC wasn’t exactly bad, but nor was it in the same league as AT33/OC9.
I accept their may be different sounding Ortofons, but in general, I have heard a “house sound” from Ortofon and it’s one I wouldn’t want to live with. Plenty of carts out there with a character I do like, so why bother with Ortofon.
Remember I had a 540 and didn’t know it was worth anything, I judged it to be sub-AT91 based purely on sound. It didn’t sound any different to what I recalled from a 520. I really thought they were tenner jobs. I still wouldn’t part with a tenner for one.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 19:26:31 GMT
Nothing thin or bland about an SPU. I had a vintage one and the sound was glorious!
The MC25FL isn't far short either. Damn nice MC.
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Post by dsjr on Oct 10, 2018 19:46:34 GMT
Old ortofon MM's may get a bit scrappy when the diamonds are worn and gunked up, but I promise you that a 530 and 540 sounded FAR better than a 510 and 520 *when new styli were compared directly using the same body.* I did this for a couple using a Planar 2/RB250 of all things and we all preferred the 540/Planar 2 to a 520/Planar 3. Surface noise was lower with the 'better' stylus and string tone was in a different league.
The SPU is a glorious sound, but more than a bit inaccurate to the source master when you realise the bass that's often removed to cut the disc in the first place, but who the feck cares! It's nothing like astringent modern cartridges and can sound too lush if you get an older one wrong. I believe some work has been done on more modern ones to update them a bit without losing the charm and absolute solidity and stability this model has in bucketloads and as long as there's not a good digital source to show you how it should really be (mostly), it's a fine vintage listen...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 19:46:44 GMT
It's been established that memories are retained better when there's an emotional involvement.
Psych yourself up and engage your emotions for a listen.
Either that, - or just accept the fact you're going senile.
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 10, 2018 20:13:26 GMT
It's been established that memories are retained better when there's an emotional involvement. Psych yourself up and engage your emotions for a listen. Either that, - or just accept the fact you're going senile. My memory has been at senility level since I was able to walk! You are right that I tend to remember how a product made me feel, far more than I remember what it sounded like. |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 10, 2018 20:16:49 GMT
Old ortofon MM's may get a bit scrappy when the diamonds are worn and gunked up, but I promise you that a 530 and 540 sounded FAR better than a 510 and 520 *when new styli were compared directly using the same body.* I did this for a couple using a Planar 2/RB250 of all things and we all preferred the 540/Planar 2 to a 520/Planar 3. Surface noise was lower with the 'better' stylus and string tone was in a different league. The SPU is a glorious sound, but more than a bit inaccurate to the source master when you realise the bass that's often removed to cut the disc in the first place, but who the feck cares! It's nothing like astringent modern cartridges and can sound too lush if you get an older one wrong. I believe some work has been done on more modern ones to update them a bit without losing the charm and absolute solidity and stability this model has in bucketloads and as long as there's not a good digital source to show you how it should really be (mostly), it's a fine vintage listen... I must admit I’d really like to hear an SPU. Too many people have commented on it’s emotional content. The Ortofons I’ve tried have all been sorely lacking in this respect as well as sonics. It would have to be a bargain one that I could sell on, but I will never say never  |
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