Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 3, 2018 9:36:03 GMT
This has been dawning on me for a while. I think it started when I saw videos of Klipsch La Scalas sounding wonderful when being driven by T amps. It made me recall memories of Snells being driven by Audio Innovations amps and sounding mighty. Then I’ve watched as Jerry bought a megabucks pair of omnis and found that he really didn’t benefit much from more expensibe and higher powered amps.
Then we come to my time with my own efficient omnis. They satisfy me completely with the low powered Campion. In fact the more powerful amps I have tried have been worse. Actually, all amps have been worse. Part of me still believes a KSA50 would make them sound even better but I genuinely have no desire for any other big power amp, because my experience of them makes me feel they only perform at higher volumes. The planets just fill the room with glorious sound at all volumes, so I don’t feel the need to go crazy with volume to get the sound to escape the boxes.
Right now I’m enjoying Jennifer Warnes “Famous Blue Raincoat” on CD and it’s nevertheless sounded fuller, or more “in the room”. In short it’s never been this satisfying, and I’ve played it on pretty much every system I’ve owned,
So what about it? Is a bigger amp usually better? I’m beginning to think it’s only relevant with speakers that call for it. Even then, such systems need to be played at a certain volume to work.
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Post by antonio on Oct 3, 2018 10:22:09 GMT
No. What you have just described only reinforces my belief speakers make the most difference, and as long as your amp can drive them adequately all is good. Pleased you're still enjoying the Planets.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2018 11:39:18 GMT
I recall someone telling me a good low wattage amp can sound more musical. But that could very much be urban myth.
S.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2018 15:13:10 GMT
No you don't need bigger amps. Just more of them
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,434
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 3, 2018 15:18:01 GMT
No you don't need bigger amps. Just more of them I must admit I really did like my 4 monos. Moving to two much bigger amps was a high step backwards,
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Post by dsjr on Oct 3, 2018 15:55:52 GMT
Amps HAVE changed over the years, at least decent ones have. You can NEVER have too much power, but the amp has to be good at low volumes too.
Steve C has some home made large single driver speakers of great sensitivity (all discussed on HFS and Audio talk). He loves his low powered valve amp projects he's made, and the home-made NVA derived amp is also well liked in this setup, but he did try a humungous Crown PA/venue amp (hundreds of Watts a side) and it didn't seem to disgrace itself at all at low domestic levels, which surprised me hugely in all honesty. All pictured and described on Audio talk threads going back six months or so.
The Krell KSA50 and 50S aren't really very powerful at all (90 - 100WPC class AB into 8 ohms but guaranteed half that power as Cass A as much as a complimentary circuit can be), but what DOES set them apart is the doubling of power into 4 and possibly 2 ohm loads and for that you need huge heat-sinking, maybe multiple output transistors and huge power supplies to deliver when needed. On paper at least, a Quad 606/707/909 family amp is actually more powerful - 130W+ per channel into 8 ohms, 225 W+ per channel into 4 ohms but maybe self-protected into much lower than this. Thirty years ago when the 606 came along, it was regarded as a seriously powerful amp, but not today really...
As an aside, maybe some of you with spare dosh should try one of the better pro amps to see if they can deliver for peanuts? Yamaha make some very well respected pro models costing well under a grand new. Jerry (jandll) the box swapper had and liked a crown XLI1500 for a while.
The thing is, many modern speakers are not that efficient, so many domestic amps of whatever quality are going to be pushed on peaks a bit. Most current Naims are better at low levels than they ever were in the 80's (I still find them bland though), but when you push them IT HURTS in my experience. Conversely, the little NVA A20 is only really around 125 - 20WPC at a push, but it soft clips so nicely you only realise it when it's gasping for breath.. Most domestic amps are somewhere in between in my experience... The baby T amps get recommended often and at very low volumes they're really good and clear, but the limits 8for me* are too low to be usable and the sound gets tinnier and tinnier the higher you go in volume - distortion grows to stupid levels too, so unusable for old headbangers like me...
Does any of the Sh#t above make any sense?
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 3, 2018 16:05:06 GMT
The build quality of so many pro amps is off the scale compared to domestic kit.You get the feeling that it’s because there’s no “hifi” premium. I had one a few years ago,,which a former owner had built into a pretty case. I thought it was very good indeed. Probably not far off the Bryston 4bST which it most resembled. I only paid around £200 used,
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2018 16:25:04 GMT
No you don't need bigger amps. Just more of them I must admit I really did like my 4 monos. Moving to two much bigger amps was a high step backwards, Well, i'm on my way to a six pack. I still have all my Avondale amps as well and when all built I will have 12 monoblocs Four drivers in each of my speakers so I could possibly use 8 channels. The cost of speaker cable will probably break me though.
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,434
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 3, 2018 16:45:27 GMT
I must admit I really did like my 4 monos. Moving to two much bigger amps was a high step backwards, Well, i'm on my way to a six pack. I still have all my Avondale amps as well and when all built I will have 12 monoblocs Four drivers in each of my speakers so I could possibly use 8 channels. The cost of speaker cable will probably break me though. You could just buy a 100m reel of H07 cable, you can always double it up if you like and it won’t break the bank. Probs no more than £30 per reel.
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Post by macca on Oct 3, 2018 17:06:04 GMT
No. What you have just described only reinforces my belief speakers make the most difference, and as long as your amp can drive them adequately all is good. Agree. People simply underestimate how hard it is to drive some designs of speaker properly, especially your typical 2 or 3 way tower speaker with its 4 ohm bass/mid. Current is more important than watts. I've heard plenty of systems that would benefit from a better amp - and by better I mean better engineered not 'better' in terms of sound quality. IME the two go hand in hand anyway. People usually blame the speaker in such situations because on paper the amp should have 'enough watts'. The big difference of opinion on speakers like Yamaha NS1000s are entirely down to that ( and to a lesser extent the quality of the source. People overestimate how good their turntables are as well. Good speakers are less forgiving of mediocre vinyl set-ups but people blame the speakers).
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Post by dsjr on Oct 3, 2018 17:32:26 GMT
The NS1000M's I had for a while, but I did think the ES14's were better in the mids. Mind you, apart from exposure to NS1000's when they were first imported in 1975, I used them with an Lk280 a lot of the time and this may well have been a huge bottleneck for them at home in a nearfield situation. The NS2000's I heard once were sublime I recall (I forget the amp, but it could have been a Nak PA7 from memory) The Spendors here sound just fine with the D-150 and little different to how they 'sounded' with the Krell. They're a pretty easy load though and dip at 6 ohms in a narrow band of the mids and maybe the very highest frequencies where there's not much there... Apart from that, they peak at 32 ohms at crossover as many BBC derivations do, so the krell wasn't being tested at all except for heat in the confined space it had to be in (only a couple of 40 minute sessions though before I bottled it and took it out)...
One issue is that you can make a delightful lowish powered amp (one modern maker example are the Sonneteer integrateds imo), but to make this circuit deliver more power, the supply would need drastic increases, then the output devices would need upgrading or doubling, tripling or 'quading' up and this introduces other issues I suspect that would need designing out. Extra protection would be needed to stop random popping of these output transistors and lo and behold, the price has gone through the roof with all the extra gubbins added. Having said that, the old classic Crown DC300A is nearly half a century old and these still sound fine and run and run and run and run...............
Big pro amps may get round some of this in the quantities made per batch. I suspect many are made for not much in China now. I bet the current Quad amps could be half the price and still profitable, but they have a bad vibe over hear as it is. fancy the Artera selling for £499 when the 909 was a grand and pretty much identical apart from some details. it would be the same as Audiolab, when the Chinese 8000 clones (S, Q, P and M's) were substantially cheaper than the classic UK ones and I'm sure they weren't any worse (I haven't compared, but you get the drift). the Chinese casework didn't look 'quite' as substantial, but that's only from pictures - the innards looked just fine to me.
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Post by macca on Oct 3, 2018 17:51:44 GMT
One issue is that you can make a delightful lowish powered amp (one modern maker example are the Sonneteer integrateds imo), but to make this circuit deliver more power, the supply would need drastic increases, then the output devices would need upgrading or doubling, tripling or 'quading' up and this introduces other issues I suspect that would need designing out. ..........
From reading what various designers say this would seem to be the case.
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