Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,152
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 1, 2018 14:24:42 GMT
Everywhere I turn, I see a revised version of history that I don’t recognise. Magazines, dealers and manufacturers of yesteryear apparently all colluded to rob punters blind and stitch them up with some sub-par “Emperors Mew Clothes” version of hifi. Utterly powerless, these poor swabs were each relieved of thousands of pounds. Other, more worthy makers all went to the wall, when (like Brando) they coulda been contenders.
This is becoming the accepted version of hifi history on many forums. The trouble is, it doesn’t stand up to basic scrutiny.
1. There were other non-Linn/Naim dealers out there. I didn’t have a car, or even a lot of money, but I still got to Edinburgh, Glasgow Harrogate, Leeds and London to hear other kit. I also went to the Heathrow shows. It wasn’t hard to hear other ways to make music. There were loads of other dealer ads in the mags, so it wasn’t like other kit was hidden or confiscated.
2. Every Linn/Naim dealer sold via demonstration. If you listened to the kit and then chose to buy it, then you have nobody else to blame but yourself.
3. Even if you believe you only bought because the gear was misrepresented as “the best available” by dealers of mags, you weren’t short-changed. You got the ego boost you sought from owning “the best” if that was your reason for buying. You can’t even argue that you were left out of pocket when the whole “flat earth con” was exposed, because these items still hold value better than most and are still very sought after. They are also extremely reliable, with great service backup and parts availability.
4. Then we have all the other makers who were excluded and robbed of success. I used to have some sympathy for this myself, but as I’ve revisited products from that era, I have realised that most of them failed for other reasons. Some were ugly, poorly built and finished, lacking user friendliness, poorly supported, unreliable etc etc. A handful of others (eg Myst) were too expensive to build profitably and therefore either doomed to fail, or destined for higher prices where they would be more of a niche product. The reason the “also rand” didn’t become winners was much more to do with their own shortcomings, rather than any conspiracy. By contrast, Linn, naim and Rega made comparatively well finished, reliable products that were never in short supply, proved profitable for makers and retailers, and which sold well, based on demonstration. They also provided clear upgrade paths and strong used markets to support them.
We seem to live in an age where it’s far easier to blame circumstances or other folk for everything. To me, the whole flat earth conspiracy theory is just another one of these stories people are telling because they can’t face up to the consequence so of their own actions.
Discuss.
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Post by macca on Oct 1, 2018 17:33:40 GMT
Interesting topic and you are right...to an extent.
I have old Hi-Fi Review mags here from the end of the 1980s (Chris Frankland, Paul Benson, the bloke who wrote Rebus who's name escapes me right now). Yes they all loved and used Linn and Naim but the mag favourably reviews products from lots of different manufacturers. It also prints a fair few letters of criticism complaining about the Linn/Naim bias.
However the only Jap products that get reviewed are CD players and tape decks - probably since at the time only the japs were making them, Jap turntables, speakers and amps? Forget it. Never reviewed and occasionally dismissed as tat not worth bothering with. In the absence of any other input what is the serious punter supposed to think? If you weren't on Doctor money the mag would recommend Rega 2 or 3 but only until you had enough cash to buy the only deck worth bothering about.
Very occasionally they would review Yank kit but only to slag it off, which admittedly was quite funny.
So I think it's fair to say there was an overall 'culture' of 'British is best, don't bother considering anything else' it wasn't all pervasive. From what I can gather it is true that Linn exerted some pressure on dealers to push Linn exclusively. I think DSJR has mentioned this and he has first had experience, but I've also heard it from others involved with Linn dealerships.
As you rightly say though, there were a lot of hi-fi shops back then and maybe ten percent if that carried Linn, so it was never a hegemony in that respect.
One thing a lot of people have said is that punters would come in having read the mags and already dismissed the stuff not pushed regularly and didn't even want to demo it. Don't know if you found that Westie? Although I suppose Richer was a different kettle of fish as it was almost exclusively sold Jap bin-end back then. It was a high-street clearance house, not a 'proper' dealership. I loved it myself, best hi-fi shop ever and I couldn't afford Linn/Naim/Rega in then in any case.
If I'd had a hi-fi brand back then I would simply have pushed my kit on the mags and got them to review it, by hook or by crook because that was the only way back then to get good amount of sales. You join a game you play it, you don't try to change the rules, that'll get you nowhere. You don't like the way an industry works then find another business.
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Post by dsjr on Oct 1, 2018 18:35:28 GMT
I was lucky. I worked for one of Linn, Naim and Rega's top three dealers of the 80's, so we had no pressure at all from these three to 'only' push their products. the pressure came internally, from a blinkered Naimie sales director who fell for it hook, line and sinker! We were able to have some wiggle room in that we sold the big Nakamichi amps (Threshold derived so Pass designs I believe) and the Nak designed CA7 preamp mainly, which were cheaper than top Naims by then. Unlike other dealers who took sides, we sold plenty of Linn amps as well as Naim ones and customers had the choice! the Linn Lk1 and 2 at least at first, sounded like Quad (so great string/orchestral timbres) but could drive the 3 ohm loads of Saras and 'Briks which no Quad could at the time. We sold the Rock 2 and Revolver turntables and tried with the AR, but shitty bearing sloppiness ruined it and we abandoned it before the far superior toleranced 'Legend' model came along later.. Our London store also had a well established Quad contingent and we sold a lot of Quad amps and speakers to these people, along with Rogers LS7's, Studio Ones (our Concert Room was large so few bass issues) and so on, but maybe we were the exceptions compared to other smaller stores selling the 'terrible twosome's' products. Despite some of us begging to take on the Absolute Sounds portfolio (the Hampstead store had many customers who 'upgraded' their Isobarik systems into ARC/Krell and Sonus Faber style ones (Douglas Adams for one!)), we were denied most of it by said director except for the odd Koetsu and so on. Oh yeah, the ARO caused some consternation on the LP12 as originally, I thought it sounded cack until the Cirkus kit on the Fruitbox LP12 took most of the fruit away and let the arm sing out properly - my opinion only and probably not shared by others I suspect.
I witnessed the Myst couple being humiliated by our sales director one morning. The Myst amps did sound very good, better than a cheaper Naim (and pics of the internals show how beautifully simple and superbly made they were) and the couple making them tried their best, but were talking to a brick wall despite the audible evidence. These memories stay with me, as well as a visit in the late 80's by Peter Comeau, then half of Heybrook. We were good Heybrook dealers, but the London store senior management treated him like a low-rent rep which he certainly didn't deserve. He was trying to refine the HB1 and HB2 concept and of course making them more 'refined' took some of the character away...
Too many stories. I was lucky to have pro and non Linn/Naim owning friends who tried to keep me grounded as best they could, not always successfully at the time. I was young and very naive then and enjoyed the 'exciting' sounds of then Linn and Naim systems. The rot started when I always wondered why Isobariks in passive form could never reproduce massed strings where Quad 57's and if there wasn't any bass, BC1's did it with ease... I digress though.
Is any of the above any sense?
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Post by dsjr on Oct 1, 2018 18:44:41 GMT
I should add that I bought my first LP12 after comparing same with other mid 70's decks and preferring the way it had with music of the time. My first Naim amp was a 12S/160 which replaced a Radford 25 and 22 preamp pair (re-valved but nothing else). A HiCap, 32 and bolt-up 250 replaced this and sounded much nicer (bolt up 250's properly set up are lovely valve-like amps and NOTHING like the CB version which replaced it). An Lk1 and 2 replaced these.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,152
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 1, 2018 18:46:33 GMT
Interesting topic and you are right...to an extent. I have old Hi-Fi Review mags here from the end of the 1980s (Chris Frankland, Paul Benson, the bloke who wrote Rebus who's name escapes me right now). Yes they all loved and used Linn and Naim but the mag favourably reviews products from lots of different manufacturers. It also prints a fair few letters of criticism complaining about the Linn/Naim bias. However the only Jap products that get reviewed are CD players and tape decks - probably since at the time only the japs were making them, Jap turntables, speakers and amps? Forget it. Never reviewed and occasionally dismissed as tat not worth bothering with. In the absence of any other input what is the serious punter supposed to think? If you weren't on Doctor money the mag would recommend Rega 2 or 3 but only until you had enough cash to buy the only deck worth bothering about. Very occasionally they would review Yank kit but only to slag it off, which admittedly was quite funny. So I think it's fair to say there was an overall 'culture' of 'British is best, don't bother considering anything else' it wasn't all pervasive. From what I can gather it is true that Linn exerted some pressure on dealers to push Linn exclusively. I think DSJR has mentioned this and he has first had experience, but I've also heard it from others involved with Linn dealerships. As you rightly say though, there were a lot of hi-fi shops back then and maybe ten percent if that carried Linn, so it was never a hegemony in that respect. One thing a lot of people have said is that punters would come in having read the mags and already dismissed the stuff not pushed regularly and didn't even want to demo it. Don't know if you found that Westie? Although I suppose Richer was a different kettle of fish as it was almost exclusively sold Jap bin-end back then. It was a high-street clearance house, not a 'proper' dealership. I loved it myself, best hi-fi shop ever and I couldn't afford Linn/Naim/Rega in then in any case. If I'd had a hi-fi brand back then I would simply have pushed my kit on the mags and got them to review it, by hook or by crook because that was the only way back then to get good amount of sales. You join a game you play it, you don't try to change the rules, that'll get you nowhere. You don't like the way an industry works then find another business. Y’know, that reminded me of something that made even me chuckle.Yes we did have some people who came in and had already decided on some brand........Technics! I kid you not. We carried Most of the typical BADA dealer stuff inc Linn, Naim, Rega, Mission, Audiolab, Quad, Michell, Arcam, Creek, Cambridge, Spendor, JPW, Monitor Audio, Kef, Musical Fidelity etc etc. So many people came in and completely ignored the lot of it in favour of drooling over the Technics stuff! We used to all laugh at them, but maybe they knew something after all. We carried the SL1200 and SLP1200. We sold a few of the former but not a single one of the latter. Nobody ever asked to hear it. The rep told us it was exactly the same as the SLP990 which we did play with and also sold a few of. The Sony 555 and Meridian 207 beat it easily although I thought it better than the CD94 which I detested. None of us ever thought of trying then1200 for ourselves thanks to Technics own rep! |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,152
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 1, 2018 19:08:21 GMT
Buyers of the Japanese stuff we sold almost never wanted to hear it, they just wanted us to hand over the box. We even stocked the tonearms: Same story.
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Post by macca on Oct 1, 2018 19:20:23 GMT
The lesser Technics amps always sounded thin to me and always avoided them. Never heard any of their flagship types but it does look to be in a different league so I don't know.
Technics had adverts everywhere at one time so I suppose it's what civilians would gravitate towards in a shop. At least it is a brand they have heard of and know is good, even if they don't have a Scooby. It was sort of the Ford Escort XR3i of hifi brands back then.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,152
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 1, 2018 19:27:35 GMT
The lesser Technics amps always sounded thin to me and always avoided them. Never heard any of their flagship types but it does look to be in a different league so I don't know. Technics had adverts everywhere at one time so I suppose it's what civilians would gravitate towards in a shop. At least it is a brand they have heard of and know is good, even if they don't have a Scooby. It was sort of the Ford Escort XR3i of hifi brands back then. Spot on! They were definitely XR3i types  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2018 20:18:50 GMT
The Technics rep was talking rubbish. There's a novelty.
The SL-P1200 uses 2 PCM54 DACs and a MN 6618 digital filter. The SL-P990 uses 4 PCM56 DACs in dual differential mode with a MN 6622 digital filter, for a start.
Naim used the 990 or the 1000 as a base to work from when they were developing the CD1.
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Post by macca on Oct 1, 2018 21:19:10 GMT
I was going to say that. In fact I think I have an SLP990 somewhere. I'll have a search for it at the weekend. I don't recall it being anything special though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2018 22:39:51 GMT
'Flat Earth' Hi-Fi attitudes even pre-date the advent of CD. I recall the same things as others, reviewers and users of Linn and Naim products (for instance) ignoring much of what else was available and even scorning anything that did not fit the philosophy. Nowadays, this kind of mindset is largely discredited, but unfortunately, there still exists an obsessive 'fringe' that cannot accept that there are other ways to do things. Their loss I say.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 18:41:04 GMT
The Technics rep was talking rubbish. There's a novelty. The SL-P1200 uses 2 PCM54 DACs and a MN 6618 digital filter. The SL-P990 uses 4 PCM56 DACs in dual differential mode with a MN 6622 digital filter, for a start. Naim used the 990 or the 1000 as a base to work from when they were developing the CD1. Oh. The Technics rep would have been more correct if he had said the 12000 was the same as the 1000. Not that they are. But they do use the same DAC and digital filter and in general terms are the same, although the 1000 has digital outputs. It doesn't mean to say they sound the same though. And which version of the 1200? Ferreting about the 'net for the past few years I've discovered there was at least 6 variants of the SL-P1200. I do have a Meridian 207. It's ok, but I'd rather listen to the 1200. Both are a joy to use. Again though, I prefer the Technics as it provides a more pleasing interaction. It also works great with a pair of Sennheiser HD 424 headphones. Interesting read here: www.adrian-kingston.com/SL-P1000.htm |
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Post by macca on Oct 9, 2018 18:49:24 GMT
I forgot to look for that SLP990.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 19:17:09 GMT
When you find it, put it on eBay. They go for quite a bit.
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Post by macca on Oct 9, 2018 19:38:10 GMT
I know, I paid a fair bit for it on eBay I never sell on ebay anyway. Far too much potential aggravation that I can't be bothered with. Don't buy on it anymore either. When I first discovered it I did a bit of a 'kid in a sweet shop' thing for a while. Nothing expensive but bought lots of kit I'd really fancied back in the day but couldn't afford it new. Now I only buy and sell here and AoS because you're pretty much guaranteed to be dealing with reasonable people. Not that there are none on other forums but I'm not a member of any of them. Been ripped off a few times on ebay, not for any serious money though so couldn't be arsed to do anything about it. But it was enough for me to pack it in. |
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Post by dsjr on Oct 9, 2018 19:50:18 GMT
The original bolt-up Naims - 120 and 250 especially, really WERE great amps at the time and communicated the music so well I recall. They still age, blow supply caps and generally drift just like the later ones though. We were horrified when the CB range came along and the 250 out of the box 'sounded' horribly hard toned - ok, harsh! The worst excesses did moderate over the first few weeks of use (hence the bullshit around 24/7 operation) but it was a poor excuse and 'we' kind of accepted it. Thing was, 'everything else' didn't sound like this, so for me it became a problem, solved when Linn brought their (better on massed strings) amps out. Our sales director firmly believed Naim was correct and everything else was wrong and sadly, he wasn't in the slightest alone.
I think I said this before (amongst everything else no doubt), but we were very young then (I was 19 in 1976 when I got my first LP12, with Grace 707) and like many bods of around my age, we all liked the same kind of rock/prog and some punk/post-punk/new romantic '80's' music. Linn and Naim stereo's gave the music a kind of 'urgent' and 'exciting' quality (Siouxsie + Banshees 'Icons' was a high point on a friend and colleague's 'brik bolt up 250 era tri-amped system and TeeDee's 'Tangram' just sounded amazingly 'there' in that room I recall). Loads of other musical examples, but the Naim amps of all eras were sensitive to mains issues and every day, the 'sound' after eleven at night got better i remember and it wasn't just the bedtime vibe in the room doing it I maintain.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 20:34:10 GMT
I was going to say that. In fact I think I have an SLP990 somewhere. I'll have a search for it at the weekend. I don't recall it being anything special though. Have you never tried using it as a transport ? |
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Post by macca on Oct 14, 2018 22:34:38 GMT
Damn I forgot again to dig it out. No not tried it as a transport.
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