|
|
Post by macca on Sept 29, 2018 7:03:24 GMT
stick up some pictures of your room, or a plan of it, maybe we can work out a solution that hasn't occurred to you.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 7:17:28 GMT
stick up some pictures of your room, or a plan of it, maybe we can work out a solution that hasn't occurred to you. I'll put some up later. At work currently. |
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Sept 29, 2018 8:25:18 GMT
Around 400% I gather, the same as Rega make to trade prices. I saw my TIS being made up and it does entail more fiddling than the cheaper ones. He now has someone in to do this more fiddly stuff (I swear I have nothing whatever to do with it). Plenty of alternatives if you don't like the man or the stuff he makes for whatever reason, but I couldn't let my TIS sample go so stumped up (my income was a bit higher then, so not such a financial issue as it would be now). SSPmk2 is very much closer to it I thought, but some gripe even at that, so I'm stumped really. I really liked TIS mk1. I can understand it being hard to,part with. A 5m set of SSP mk2 isurelynhas to be a LOT more than 400% profit. You’re only talking 40m of RG316, a bit of braided screen and a fivers worth of plugs. And it’s £1300. But it’s all old news now. How many people would actually buy much more than a 2m set of interconnects - in an NVA system anyway? Passive preamps feck up the loading for other power amps almost universally, so to keep excesses under some kind of control, interconnects are usually less than 2m and normally 0.7 to 1m in length, unless you're an owner of Cubix Pro types in which case you'd be pretty loaded!
50m drums of RG316U are around £150 to buy aren't they? Add the plugs (not expensive I grant you, but they're rather better than they look) and braids and then multiply by four as is usual for non-greedy trade makers (Linn and Naim used to multiply up by seven to trade prices we paid as dealers). See, it soon adds up. I don't think any SSP or TIS has been sold over 2m anyway, so it's all academic now to those of us out of the loop.
Anyway, if we're talking about rip-offs, what about the two top Transparent Audio mains filters? SIXTEEN GRAND for a four socket jobbie, but you should only use two of these sockets, so have to buy another if you have more items in your stereo. They have a 'better' filter again and it's TWENTY FOUR GRAND I gather. What the feck's inside I have no idea, but it's THIS level I seriously have difficulty with!
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Sept 29, 2018 9:10:40 GMT
I really liked TIS mk1. I can understand it being hard to,part with. A 5m set of SSP mk2 isurelynhas to be a LOT more than 400% profit. You’re only talking 40m of RG316, a bit of braided screen and a fivers worth of plugs. And it’s £1300. But it’s all old news now.
Anyway, if we're talking about rip-offs, what about the two top Transparent Audio mains filters? SIXTEEN GRAND for a four socket jobbie, but you should only use two of these sockets, so have to buy another if you have more items in your stereo. They have a 'better' filter again and it's TWENTY FOUR GRAND I gather. What the feck's inside I have no idea, but it's THIS level I seriously have difficulty with!
Just toys to relieve wealthy people of their excess money. I mean let's face it if we're going to look for rip-offs in the world of hi-fi we will find ourselves in a target-rich environment. Be quicker to list the stuff that isn't a rip-off. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 9:13:42 GMT
With that math, my 1m cables should cost £560 😂😂😂
I've been going about this all wrong lol.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 29, 2018 9:17:16 GMT
I really liked TIS mk1. I can understand it being hard to,part with. A 5m set of SSP mk2 isurelynhas to be a LOT more than 400% profit. You’re only talking 40m of RG316, a bit of braided screen and a fivers worth of plugs. And it’s £1300. But it’s all old news now. How many people would actually buy much more than a 2m set of interconnects - in an NVA system anyway? Passive preamps feck up the loading for other power amps almost universally, so to keep excesses under some kind of control, interconnects are usually less than 2m and normally 0.7 to 1m in length, unless you're an owner of Cubix Pro types in which case you'd be pretty loaded! 50m drums of RG316U are around £150 to buy aren't they? Add the plugs (not expensive I grant you, but they're rather better than they look) and braids and then multiply by four as is usual for non-greedy trade makers (Linn and Naim used to multiply up by seven to trade prices we paid as dealers). See, it soon adds up. I don't think any SSP or TIS has been sold over 2m anyway, so it's all academic now to those of us out of the loop. Anyway, if we're talking about rip-offs, what about the two top Transparent Audio mains filters? SIXTEEN GRAND for a four socket jobbie, but you should only use two of these sockets, so have to buy another if you have more items in your stereo. They have a 'better' filter again and it's TWENTY FOUR GRAND I gather. What the feck's inside I have no idea, but it's THIS level I seriously have difficulty with!
Even at £3 a metre for raw cable, a 5 metre set of 4x shotgun 316/u cable is only £120, plus a fiver for plugs and a fiver for screen. That’s £130 against a price of £1300. You quoted 4x cost and I’m pointing out that isn’t wholly true. The point I and others are making is that if you set yourself up as some sort of internet policeman, exposing rip offs, whilst claiming to be direct sell and so no “slurp”, you may look an utter hypocrite if you are found to be charging cost x10 for your product. Especially when you have no advertising, prenmises, dealer margin, distributors etc. Whether or not they sell is immaterial. Of course I agree with you about other cable makers being even worse, but that doesn’t alter the example above. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 29, 2018 9:18:42 GMT
I'm currently struggling with this a bit. I have the Krell standing up on its face plate handles as I don't have any cables long enough to drop it between the speakers. The problem is I don't want to have 3m long interconnects and 1m speaker wires. I can't move anything and it can't really stay where it is. 3m interconnects and short speaker cables looks to be my only option. Imo there’s nothing wrong with 3 m lengths.Remember, mine were 5 metres and unscreened. Yours will be screened and lower loss. 3m is fine imo.t |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 29, 2018 9:22:30 GMT
Or you could swap amps with Macca and go balanced  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 10:19:29 GMT
How many people would actually buy much more than a 2m set of interconnects - in an NVA system anyway? Passive preamps feck up the loading for other power amps almost universally, so to keep excesses under some kind of control, interconnects are usually less than 2m and normally 0.7 to 1m in length, unless you're an owner of Cubix Pro types in which case you'd be pretty loaded! 50m drums of RG316U are around £150 to buy aren't they? Add the plugs (not expensive I grant you, but they're rather better than they look) and braids and then multiply by four as is usual for non-greedy trade makers (Linn and Naim used to multiply up by seven to trade prices we paid as dealers). See, it soon adds up. I don't think any SSP or TIS has been sold over 2m anyway, so it's all academic now to those of us out of the loop. Anyway, if we're talking about rip-offs, what about the two top Transparent Audio mains filters? SIXTEEN GRAND for a four socket jobbie, but you should only use two of these sockets, so have to buy another if you have more items in your stereo. They have a 'better' filter again and it's TWENTY FOUR GRAND I gather. What the feck's inside I have no idea, but it's THIS level I seriously have difficulty with!
Even at £3 a metre for raw cable, a 5 metre set of 4x shotgun 316/u cable is only £120, plus a fiver for plugs and a fiver for screen. That’s £130 against a price of £1300. You quoted 4x cost and I’m pointing out that isn’t wholly true. The point I and others are making is that if you set yourself up as some sort of internet policeman, exposing rip offs, whilst claiming to be direct sell and so no “slurp”, you may look an utter hypocrite if you are found to be charging cost x10 for your product. Especially when you have no advertising, prenmises, dealer margin, distributors etc. Whether or not they sell is immaterial. Of course I agree with you about other cable makers being even worse, but that doesn’t alter the example above. Here here!!! Excellent post. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 10:20:27 GMT
I'm currently struggling with this a bit. I have the Krell standing up on its face plate handles as I don't have any cables long enough to drop it between the speakers. The problem is I don't want to have 3m long interconnects and 1m speaker wires. I can't move anything and it can't really stay where it is. 3m interconnects and short speaker cables looks to be my only option. Imo there’s nothing wrong with 3 m lengths.Remember, mine were 5 metres and unscreened. Yours will be screened and lower loss. 3m is fine imo.t I can only try it. I'll see what happens. I'll still post a picture. Got my eye on a rather nice looking KSA50. Shall I??? |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Sept 29, 2018 11:13:00 GMT
Changing amps for one that actually will fit in the room? Classic.
I agree there's no big deal using 3 metres of interconnect if you have to. Not long enough to be worth going balanced. Plus you're able to make your own which ameliorates the cost a bit.
(BTW I've now got the spotfire cables all wired in, listening later).
|
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Sept 29, 2018 11:37:58 GMT
My take on all the Krell systems I ever saw when they were new new at any rate, was with the power amps between the speakers and long interconnects from 'active' preamp to them. I can't find data for the 50 or 100 as per sensitivity etc. but an early 'Choice review gives the 50 at 175mV at 22K loading. This is ridiculously sensitive and far more than say, a Quad 303 or NVA power amp, so I reckon it's nearer to 1.175V, but obviously I can't check. Later 'Choice reviews don't give these figures, only the pre and power together. Macca's Krell, where a full technical review and manuals can be got online, specifies 1.3V needed for full output, so again, a passive preamp is a bit marginal to say the least.
I only say the above because a unity-gain preamp may not be enough gain if non-CD sources are used. Many phono stages, if not the very best ones, have a lowish output not much different from tuners and the tape/cassette decks I used to sell. Most active preamps can give out 5V+ although old designs such as Naim and the related Quad 33 ancestor, may be lower (the 33 is around 1.5V max, although it will drive long cables happily).
Just thoughts borne from experiences. I couldn't put 'maccas' Krell anywhere near the speakers 'on show' and it risked thermal runaway in the cupboard it was in latterly, so that was another reason why it needed to find a better home.
|
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Sept 29, 2018 11:47:27 GMT
Imo there’s nothing wrong with 3 m lengths.Remember, mine were 5 metres and unscreened. Yours will be screened and lower loss. 3m is fine imo.t I can only try it. I'll see what happens. I'll still post a picture. Got my eye on a rather nice looking KSA50. Shall I??? If you can store it if the 100A suits better, then why not.
The 50 has gone up and beyond Top End status and reputation now and like all good old gear, it's a collectors item now, so prices will climb if they aren't already and later models will follow suit in due course if history of other older gear is any guide. Got to be worth it while it's under a grand. 80's (which probably do need checking now as most will have (hotly) driven Apogee cruel loads) were £1150 not long ago and the amazing (to me) FPB300 was around four grand a year or two ago and this one was a Quad 606 on steroids in sound and less 'clinical' as I remember (why I love the 606 and descendants so very much).
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 29, 2018 11:53:35 GMT
Imo there’s nothing wrong with 3 m lengths.Remember, mine were 5 metres and unscreened. Yours will be screened and lower loss. 3m is fine imo.t I can only try it. I'll see what happens. I'll still post a picture. Got my eye on a rather nice looking KSA50. Shall I??? If it’s the Mk1 I’d definitely say yes. I don’t know the Mk2 at all. Stereophile did a compariosn, which left me feeling like I’d only want the mk1, but at the end of the day it’s just a few words describing someone else’s experience. Even if you take away all other factors, your sample might not sound the same. I’d still have it tho lol  |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 29, 2018 12:00:32 GMT
Changing amps for one that actually will fit in the room? Classic. I agree there's no big deal using 3 metres of interconnect if you have to. Not long enough to be worth going balanced. Plus you're able to make your own which ameliorates the cost a bit. (BTW I've now got the spotfire cables all wired in, listening later). Interested in hearing your thoughts. Not least because I’ve never heard you over-play any difference and you have a healthy scepticism of the scale of cable difference without having a closed mind. TIS mk1 made me rethink how much an interconnect could affect the quality of your system. Nothing else has really made me care unless it wasn’t too bright like Nordost. Whilst I hear differences, I wouldn’t feel unduly short-changed if I had to live with most of the ones I have had. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Sept 29, 2018 13:13:02 GMT
Well I already had a brief listen with them when Ollie brought some round and that was enough to convince me to buy some even though they are not cheap. So that probably says it all already.  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 14:23:31 GMT
Well I already had a brief listen with them when Ollie brought some round and that was enough to convince me to buy some even though they are not cheap. So that probably says it all already. Well, they may not be cheap BUT they are a bargain because you get way more cable for your money than with anyone else. I can offer that because I'm not doing it to make a living, its for personal enjoyment, mine and yours. Let's not forget, if I were to apply the mark up mentioned earlier, they'd be £560 a pair!! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 14:29:07 GMT
My take on all the Krell systems I ever saw when they were new new at any rate, was with the power amps between the speakers and long interconnects from 'active' preamp to them. I can't find data for the 50 or 100 as per sensitivity etc. but an early 'Choice review gives the 50 at 175mV at 22K loading. This is ridiculously sensitive and far more than say, a Quad 303 or NVA power amp, so I reckon it's nearer to 1.175V, but obviously I can't check. Later 'Choice reviews don't give these figures, only the pre and power together. Macca's Krell, where a full technical review and manuals can be got online, specifies 1.3V needed for full output, so again, a passive preamp is a bit marginal to say the least. I only say the above because a unity-gain preamp may not be enough gain if non-CD sources are used. Many phono stages, if not the very best ones, have a lowish output not much different from tuners and the tape/cassette decks I used to sell. Most active preamps can give out 5V+ although old designs such as Naim and the related Quad 33 ancestor, may be lower (the 33 is around 1.5V max, although it will drive long cables happily). Just thoughts borne from experiences. I couldn't put 'maccas' Krell anywhere near the speakers 'on show' and it risked thermal runaway in the cupboard it was in latterly, so that was another reason why it needed to find a better home. Luckily, my phonostage has plenty of gain so I shouldn't be adversely affected. I may have a look at the KSA 50 but it would have to go in the same spot as the 100 so no gain really. I can also get my hands on a KSA50S for £1000 so plenty of options but I think I'll just stick with the KSA100 |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 14:30:41 GMT
Changing amps for one that actually will fit in the room? Classic. I agree there's no big deal using 3 metres of interconnect if you have to. Not long enough to be worth going balanced. Plus you're able to make your own which ameliorates the cost a bit. (BTW I've now got the spotfire cables all wired in, listening later). Let me know how they go mate, just remember they will need some burn in time, or not dependent on your view. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Sept 29, 2018 15:22:07 GMT
Well I already had a brief listen with them when Ollie brought some round and that was enough to convince me to buy some even though they are not cheap. So that probably says it all already. Well, they may not be cheap BUT they are a bargain because you get way more cable for your money than with anyone else. I can offer that because I'm not doing it to make a living, its for personal enjoyment, mine and yours. Let's not forget, if I were to apply the mark up mentioned earlier, they'd be £560 a pair!! Anything that costs £100 or more is 'expensive' as far as I'm concerned |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Sept 29, 2018 15:29:22 GMT
Changing amps for one that actually will fit in the room? Classic. I agree there's no big deal using 3 metres of interconnect if you have to. Not long enough to be worth going balanced. Plus you're able to make your own which ameliorates the cost a bit. (BTW I've now got the spotfire cables all wired in, listening later). Let me know how they go mate, just remember they will need some burn in time, or not dependent on your view. I'm going to go for 'Not'. Actually the odd thing about unconscious bias is that you might hear something happen even if you are convinced that it's nonsense. Anyway going to have my traditional Saturday night chicken chow mein first then down to some listening with a drop of Guinness. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 15:34:25 GMT
Let me know how they go mate, just remember they will need some burn in time, or not dependent on your view. I'm going to go for 'Not'. Actually the odd thing about unconscious bias is that you might hear something happen even if you are convinced that it's nonsense. Anyway going to have my traditional Saturday night chicken chow mein first then down to some listening with a drop of Guinness. We'll wait and see. I'm sure the Guinness will loosen the hearing nicely |
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Sept 29, 2018 15:42:17 GMT
The 50S is different in all ways from the originals with a balanced current circuit from input to output, three-level bias for the outputs and a tight lean 'professional amp' kind of clean presentation rather than the slightly more 'organic' nature of a top Quad or even the FPM models, which tonally seemed to bridge the two. I found the original 50 slightly 'cloudy' sounding in comparison with modern amps BUT, those memories need to be tempered by the sources and preamps I used at the time, ten years after Jimmy had his trio of 50's (possibly Linn or Naim, which would tell the story there I reckon). The KSA80 I heard so many times was used with a Krell preamp (Pam 7 and KRC2 I seem to remember) and the FPB's were often partnered with ARC, although the one I sold went with a Theta DaVID processor-preamp, which sounded better (less bass-coloured) than an ARC LS25 and had a silent transformer.
Reminiscing as i do, I'd love to try a DNM active preamp although the few that come up cost a fortune and they did vary a bit in the 80's and 90's, some having loads of extra supplies and others not needing these so much - I lost touch when he moved it all to Switzerland and already high prices went through the roof...
|
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Sept 29, 2018 15:47:32 GMT
Back to topic... The SSC isn't totally silly money if you can't make one yourself, but I have to say that if the gear is well matched, even stock SC 'sounds' just fine to me - but that's just me. The plugs used look a bit cheap and shiny, but I've found them easy for me to work with, the plating tends to stay on well, they don't vary in ease of pushing in and pulling out as the Neutrik-Rean ones do and I believe capacitance is quite low as well (some RCA plugs aren't good in this aspect although it's years since I measured any).
Did anyone ever try the Shark silver plated stuff you used to be able to get from Maplin? Ever so expensive (around six quid a metre), but I liked it at the time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 16:28:06 GMT
Back to topic... The SSC isn't totally silly money if you can't make one yourself, but I have to say that if the gear is well matched, even stock SC 'sounds' just fine to me - but that's just me. The plugs used look a bit cheap and shiny, but I've found them easy for me to work with, the plating tends to stay on well, they don't vary in ease of pushing in and pulling out as the Neutrik-Rean ones do and I believe capacitance is quite low as well (some RCA plugs aren't good in this aspect although it's years since I measured any). Did anyone ever try the Shark silver plated stuff you used to be able to get from Maplin? Ever so expensive (around six quid a metre), but I liked it at the time. I have meters of that stuff. It cost me 80p for 50m just before it shut down. It's a decent cable but not great. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 29, 2018 20:38:38 GMT
Back to topic... The SSC isn't totally silly money if you can't make one yourself, but I have to say that if the gear is well matched, even stock SC 'sounds' just fine to me - but that's just me. The plugs used look a bit cheap and shiny, but I've found them easy for me to work with, the plating tends to stay on well, they don't vary in ease of pushing in and pulling out as the Neutrik-Rean ones do and I believe capacitance is quite low as well (some RCA plugs aren't good in this aspect although it's years since I measured any). Did anyone ever try the Shark silver plated stuff you used to be able to get from Maplin? Ever so expensive (around six quid a metre), but I liked it at the time. Was that the blue stuff? I had it back in the day. It was clear but a bit fierce, maybe it was the gear I used tho. I agree with you about SC too. It’s plenty good enough for most people and it beats many more expensibe cables. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 29, 2018 20:43:08 GMT
The 50S is different in all ways from the originals with a balanced current circuit from input to output, three-level bias for the outputs and a tight lean 'professional amp' kind of clean presentation rather than the slightly more 'organic' nature of a top Quad or even the FPM models, which tonally seemed to bridge the two. I found the original 50 slightly 'cloudy' sounding in comparison with modern amps BUT, those memories need to be tempered by the sources and preamps I used at the time, ten years after Jimmy had his trio of 50's (possibly Linn or Naim, which would tell the story there I reckon). The KSA80 I heard so many times was used with a Krell preamp (Pam 7 and KRC2 I seem to remember) and the FPB's were often partnered with ARC, although the one I sold went with a Theta DaVID processor-preamp, which sounded better (less bass-coloured) than an ARC LS25 and had a silent transformer. Reminiscing as i do, I'd love to try a DNM active preamp although the few that come up cost a fortune and they did vary a bit in the 80's and 90's, some having loads of extra supplies and others not needing these so much - I lost touch when he moved it all to Switzerland and already high prices went through the roof... At least you didn’t buy a DNM preamp then not bother your arse to even try it.....Doh! That remains one of my biggest Hi-Fi regrets. I used to buy compulsively then end up with too much kit and clear it all out before I could get round to trying. I always wanted to try one and it was so cheap I will never get another for anything like that. It was a series 3A (Twin) iirc and it was something like £225 or maybe £250. |
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Sept 30, 2018 8:45:07 GMT
I did that with mid 20th Century striking and chiming clocks after my dad passed, now worth very little. Garage full to clear out whether we move or not and five went yesterday at auction - one twin chimer that does look a bit bulky only fetched a tenner, but there's a good strong long lasting movement inside that keeps good time. Forty or so more to go a few at a time to save flooding the auction house...
I'm an effin' hoarder OK? Like a recovering ex-smoker spouting off against current smokers, I get all huffy about HiFi box swappers One thing about having no spare dosh is that you tend to try all the permutations available to get a piece of kit to work better. Reducing the mains voltage to make a Dual 601 not drone through the speakers for example (the motor was an iffy design to start with and was changed in subsequent related models), successfully trying an AT120E with a Garrard AP76 I'd rebuilt (the deck isn't quite the pile of shite I thought it might be, but no interest to peeps here so i'll say no more) and even getting a Linn LK1 working again, after 'upgrading' from one thirty years ago - I believe the Lk2 amps (all three) compounded the slightly airless and band limited 'effect' but it seems the power amps once working reliably can be opened out a bit and the preamp on its own is fine in a vintage mid period Quad preamp sense (I mean, late 44 and 66 sense, not 33, early yellow buttoned 34 or 44 and so on). |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 30, 2018 9:21:55 GMT
I think I’m becoming an ex box swapper, little by little. I still dabble with odd bits but I have no intention of changing my main system. I just don’t listen in a way that leaves me wanting,
I still have a gear fetish, but I also hat having loads of possessions around domit keeps me in check.
I 100% agree with your description of LK amps. Airless is a real good way of putting it. I had never thought about this being down to bandwidth limiting, but it make sure absolute sense.that trait seems to make amps more “sure footed” which I also struggle to understand the reasons for, but it does seem to be the case.
|
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Sept 30, 2018 10:43:00 GMT
Well done Westie, (ex box swapper) you can now enjoy the music and give up worrying whether you've got the VERY BEST system.
|
|
