Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 19, 2018 8:55:19 GMT
I just switched my hifi on ahead of a listening session a bit later, the Sonneteer kit really seems to open up after warming up. Much more than most kit, in fact.
I switched on 4 boxes then realised I can also switch on the turntable (a Sony DD) without it being left spinning. Warming it up shouldn’t really have any impact, but then I remembered a few people, who left decks spinning 24/7 back in the day. For the life of me, I can’t see a good reason for it, but there must have been some justification.
So, can a deck benefit from warm up? Given that I can power mine up withkut spinning the motor, should I warm it up too? Or is it warming up the motor by getting it turning that’s the thing? Alternately is it all BS and folklore best forgotten?
Anyone else warm their deck up? Anyone tried? I remember the old angle poise lamp theory but that was pretty much debunked.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 10:07:04 GMT
I doubt it makes much difference with a turntable.
My mate insisted on leaving his LP12 rotating permanently. I did point out that I couldn't see the benefit in prematurely wearing out a main bearing.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 19, 2018 10:19:21 GMT
Yeah it was LP12s that mainly got this treatment. Do you remember the trend of removing the arm rest from Ittok arm boards too? That one seemed really OTT to me as well.
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Post by dsjr on Sept 19, 2018 10:50:21 GMT
De-lurks -
If the motor and bearing aren't slugged with coagulating lubricant, the mechanics should come to speed instantly. leaving a fruitbox on 24/7 is recipe for premature main bearing wear, as only some old LP12 bearings stand the test of thousands of hours' use - Cymbiosis see more than most come back and I trust Peter Swain's opinions as he's good at dealing with errant Sondeks over the decades. Even clogged up old Duals and Garrards with synchronous motors lock to the mains frequency come rain or shine (and stiff bearings...).
Direct drives with electronics may be a little different here. My Dual 701 has a thermistor (on long legs) in the drive electronics to try to compensate for the analogue signal circuit warming up. Mine's currently not quite on the right place in the heart of the circuit and the deck speeds up slightly over the first ten minutes, stabilising thereafter. The non-quartz Technics decks I've had are right from the off and stay there and any with quartz locking will lock to speed quickly and permanently in any case as the crystal vibrates at a given frequency irrespective of a few degrees here and there I believe.
Lenco's seem to need ten minutes or so too, especially the ones with greased main bearings *as originally supplied.* But again, these (and the 301/401 with high-drag main bearings) seem to settle after ten minutes running, not really requiring any further adjustment after.
-re-lurks
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 19, 2018 10:58:51 GMT
I always thought that 24/7 spinning malarkey was a bit mad. I wonder who started it? Must’ve been someone with a bit of influence? I really hope it wasn’t JMH because I liked that guy  I haven’t got a clue about DDs. I haven’t even looked at the bearing. Wouldn’t even know what to expect or even whether to re-oil or what to use. I don’t even know if the Sony is quartz locked or understand how it works. That’s probably another thing I struggle with. Any belt drive I can tinker with and be sure I’m doing what is needed. It does sound good though. |
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Post by macca on Sept 19, 2018 11:45:04 GMT
The anglepoise light thing was to warm up the cartridge, not the deck. Cartridges vary widely in measured performance depending on the ambient temperature they are in (although you won't necessarily hear it).
Anyone who leaves their deck spinning 24/7 needs psychiatric help. And a new motor before long too.
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Post by dsjr on Sept 19, 2018 12:59:50 GMT
I always thought that 24/7 spinning malarkey was a bit mad. I wonder who started it? Must’ve been someone with a bit of influence? I really hope it wasn’t JMH because I liked that guy I haven’t got a clue about DDs. I haven’t even looked at the bearing. Wouldn’t even know what to expect or even whether to re-oil or what to use. I don’t even know if the Sony is quartz locked or understand how it works. That’s probably another thing I struggle with. Any belt drive I can tinker with and be sure I’m doing what is needed. It does sound good though. I think the LP12 24/7 thing came from Grahams, where for a while, they had an original LP12 on dem with a broken switch, so they just bypassed it. The original rocker switches weren't very sturdy and the big red push button one was better, but could still fail. the Valhalla/Lingo one was/is a low voltage trigger and lasts for donkey's years.
Also, Linn suggested a 24/7 Valhalla LP12 warmed the environment under the lid a little as per macca's comment above about some cartridge suspensions being temp sensitive. The 24/7 Valhalla itself didn't last more than a few years (ten or less) before blowing up or needing some attention.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 19, 2018 14:13:51 GMT
I always thought that 24/7 spinning malarkey was a bit mad. I wonder who started it? Must’ve been someone with a bit of influence? I really hope it wasn’t JMH because I liked that guy I haven’t got a clue about DDs. I haven’t even looked at the bearing. Wouldn’t even know what to expect or even whether to re-oil or what to use. I don’t even know if the Sony is quartz locked or understand how it works. That’s probably another thing I struggle with. Any belt drive I can tinker with and be sure I’m doing what is needed. It does sound good though. I think the LP12 24/7 thing came from Grahams, where for a while, they had an original LP12 on dem with a broken switch, so they just bypassed it. The original rocker switches weren't very sturdy and the big red push button one was better, but could still fail. the Valhalla/Lingo one was/is a low voltage trigger and lasts for donkey's years. Also, Linn suggested a 24/7 Valhalla LP12 warmed the environment under the lid a little as per macca's comment above about some cartridge suspensions being temp sensitive. The 24/7 Valhalla itself didn't last more than a few years (ten or less) before blowing up or needing some attention.
I’ve seen so many “cooked” Valhallas. Repaired a couple too. It was an odd one all round, because it really did add a certain character. A Hercules was more pitch stable but lost something to my ears. Lingo (mk1) sounded a bit soulless on the few occasions I heard it. |
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Post by dsjr on Sept 20, 2018 7:39:45 GMT
That Airpax motor vibrates badly (hold a rotating one on an old Rega for some confirmation) and anything to minimise this can't be a bad thing. *At the time,* a Lingo improved bass clarity a little and I thought the mids too (remembering the lower resolution of Linn and Naim preamps of the era). Whatever I think overall of the Armageddon supply upgrade, the motor rotation was smooth as silk, although I never took the box apart to see the 'phase' circuit and neither did I measure the drive voltage off the huge isolating transformer Naim used (as I believe that's all it was).
But to me, the fundamental upgrade was actually the Cirkus kit, which then included the original Cirkus sub-chassis, now replaced by the Majik one I believe. The quality in the bass was very much improved although with Ekos and Arkiv then, the sound went too 'dark' for me (this was into a Kairn though)
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 20, 2018 8:30:12 GMT
My one LP12 regret is not owning a deck with Armageddon, Aromajd Troika. I never even got to hear one, I’d still never say never on that one,
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Post by dsjr on Sept 20, 2018 11:56:15 GMT
The ARO is an expensive pita to use and the wobbling on warps can't do image stability any good. Sorry for the plug, but the stabilised NAS uni-pivots, although not as well finished, were a doddle to use and sound fab with a Decca - nuff said  The Troika wasn't all that you know, when a Koetsu Black sounded better in an LP12/Ittok for around the same money. I did hear and have still somewhere some great sound-bites on a Goldring rebuilt Troika that WNWOAN had (ARO mounted too on his own made turntable) and there was some bite and sparkle here that I don't remember from the original build examples - could be the fruitbox curse though. I think the ARO and Armageddon didn't really 'gel' until the Cirkus sub-chassis-bearing and later plinths came along, as I thought the previous issues rather more soggy than the Lingo/Ittok. Times change and products age differently. I wonder if my opinion still holds. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 20, 2018 17:37:24 GMT
I really did like ASA, and Asaka. Karma Imowned too, but it was a little less musical to me. I ownned a Troika and never bothered to fit it, which I regret.
One day as might pick up an LP12/Armageddon/Aro/Troika. They hold value so well, it could effectively be a free trial. It sure I could live with a bouncy deck and a wobbly arm for more athn a few weeks tbh. Just very curious to hear. My only experience of unipivots to this day was the Mayware on an Analogue works deck (Notts inspired). It was refreshingly at ease with itself.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 12:50:49 GMT
Wind up.......⏰
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 14:13:23 GMT
Another good way to 'warm up' your TT is to clamp your cordless drill to the spidle and let it rip! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 14:16:39 GMT
Or if its a belt drive........just set fire to it.🆒
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 8:30:33 GMT
I've got an aro on an LP12with lyra argo. Have not compared it to the PL71 I have yet as PL71 arm bearing needs tightening up. Its on my to do list (very long).
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Post by dsjr on Sept 22, 2018 16:04:23 GMT
The PL71 arm uses gravity loaded horizontal bearings like the simpler R200 and there's enough mass there for the horizontal races not to rattle in use. the vertical bearings shouldn't have perceptible play imo.
I hated the ARO on a mid 80's LP12, but the later Cirkus decks with much better plinths seemed to sort the wayward sonics out. Much of the ARO's 'sonics' are actually in the particular exit cables Naim used to use, which I understand came from France. Our Naimie sales director sourced a drum and sold interconnects made with the stuff.
If the LP12 is mod 80's, it'll probably have a not too good main bearing (white sleeves?), but I'm too much at a distance to really comment now.
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