Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,378
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 10, 2024 20:54:57 GMT
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Post by gninnam on Nov 10, 2024 21:32:25 GMT
Interesting post and write up. Like the stye of the information and your conclusion seemed fair. Well done sir
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,378
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 10, 2024 21:41:13 GMT
Interesting post and write up. Like the stye of the information and your conclusion seemed fair. Well done sir Thank you. It's a new approach, but I think it has value 😊
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 11, 2024 3:36:43 GMT
How about a contrary opinion? 😂 I must admit I found the review a bit confusing and inconsistent at times. Towards the end the idea that you'd been trying to use CD quality 16/44 all the time for comparisons was introduced....what? That's the first time that was mentioned, I think? And as you mentioned yourself,it doesn't really make sense as Amazon Music provides higher rez in the price. It's a selectable choice for playback. You came across as a bit of an old fart at other times, uncomfortable with new things. Puttering around in dusty old charity shops and used LP bins, and waiting for albums to arrive in the post, rather than actually listening to music when you wanted to. Often you seemed to think the streaming sounded better, but, nah, you'd rather use the hard copy anyway. You never really addressed the exploratory power of the streaming services; discovering new music either by the service's recommendations or by random association with links from music already played. This is a fabulous and revelatory thing for many music lovers. My own experience with Amazon Music has been very different. I've tried Amazon Music a couple of times, and both times found the user interface for searching and playing music very poor compared to other services like Qobuz or Tidal. It was incredibly frustrating and annoying and totally ruled it out for me. One function I frequently wanted required 5 individual steps with Amazon compared to 1 or 2 with other services. Incredibly annoying after a while. Amazon Music didn't remember previously used preferences for search result display, other services did. Grrrr ..... I'd rate Amazon Music as easily the worst of the streaming services in terms of its user interface. Personally, it would be my last choice, if nothing else was available. I'd probably rather have a CD collection. 😂 But that's my review, not yours. I'll get my coat.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,378
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2024 8:12:47 GMT
Thanks Jerry,
Nothing like stinging criticism first thing in the morning 😂😂
TBF, I could have addressed the fact that user interface was null and void due to the X50D s appalling management of any streaming service, which makes them all pretty equal
Hmmm, I'll give this some thought.
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2024 8:14:01 GMT
Convenience and instant gratification sounds great - until you realise what the unintended consequences are.
I love walking up to the record shop or the charity shops and sorting through the albums to find things I want that I haven't got, or taking a punt on something that looks interesting. Getting it back home, sticking it on and giving my verdict.
And while I'm there having a chat with the owner and the other punters.
I'm old enough - and so are you Jerry - to recall the world before the big supermarkets and the retail parks, when you went to the greengrocer, then the butcher, the the cake shop, and they were all privately owned and you got personal service from someone you knew, and who knew you. And maybe a chat about the football, or the cricket, or what was happening in the news.
Is life really better with all that gone? Sure now it's cheaper and quicker providing you don't mind being served by some surly teenager who's only interested in upselling you the loyalty card.
It's the intangibles that matter the most but the baby has gone out with the bathwater.
So what that you can access 'a million tracks.' If I want a particular album I can order it, I still have access to it, it's just not instant. And I don't need to keep paying rent for it in perpetuity. And one day when you want to listen to it and it's not there anymore because the rights owner didn't renew the licence, what do you do then?
Like renting a house where you're happy and one day the landlord says 'Sorry mate I've got to give you notice.' Its never better to rent.
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 11, 2024 8:27:11 GMT
Thanks Jerry, Nothing like stinging criticism first thing in the morning 😂😂 TBF, I could have addressed the fact that user interface was null and void due to the X50D s appalling management of any streaming service, which makes them all pretty equal Hmmm, I'll give this some thought. Yeah, sorry about that. I must have woke up cross this morning. 😂 But hey, there must be just so much sycophantic brown nosing you can take even on your own forum. And, yes, bypassing the streaming service's UI is probably something you should have mentioned. 👍 Amazon Music's UI is a thing of horror and desolation.
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2024 8:27:26 GMT
Sorry Oli - I should have said - I enjoyed reading your article. Not sure what this obscure music you're listening to is though...you want to put some Zappa on mate
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2024 8:31:50 GMT
Thanks Jerry, Nothing like stinging criticism first thing in the morning 😂😂 TBF, I could have addressed the fact that user interface was null and void due to the X50D s appalling management of any streaming service, which makes them all pretty equal Hmmm, I'll give this some thought. Yeah, sorry about that. I must have woke up cross this morning. 😂 But hey, there must be just so much sycophantic brown nosing you can take even on your own forum. And, yes, bypassing the streaming service's UI is probably something you should have mentioned. 👍 Amazon Music's UI is a thing of horror and desolation. That's modern day programmers for you. None of them can do a good GUI if you put a gun to their heads. You should have seen the credit card payment app we had to use at FedEx. One of the world's largest, wealthiest companies and it was like something an amateur had knocked up in ten minutes. I e-mailed the IT manager and told him it was certainly the shoddiest piece of crap I'd ever had to use. To my amazement they did fix it but I think only because I shamed them into it.
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 11, 2024 8:34:43 GMT
Convenience and instant gratification sounds great - until you realise what the unintended consequences are. I love walking up to the record shop or the charity shops and sorting through the albums to find things I want that I haven't got, or taking a punt on something that looks interesting. Getting it back home, sticking it on and giving my verdict. And while I'm there having a chat with the owner and the other punters. I'm old enough - and so are you Jerry - to recall the world before the big supermarkets and the retail parks, when you went to the greengrocer, then the butcher, the the cake shop, and they were all privately owned and you got personal service from someone you knew, and who knew you. And maybe a chat about the football, or the cricket, or what was happening in the news. Is life really better with all that gone? Sure now it's cheaper and quicker providing you don't mind being served by some surly teenager who's only interested in upselling you the loyalty card. It's the intangibles that matter the most but the baby has gone out with the bathwater. So what that you can access 'a million tracks.' If I want a particular album I can order it, I still have access to it, it's just not instant. And I don't need to keep paying rent for it in perpetuity. And one day when you want to listen to it and it's not there anymore because the rights owner didn't renew the licence, what do you do then? Like renting a house where you're happy and one day the landlord says 'Sorry mate I've got to give you notice.' Its never better to rent. Ah, but I'm a shy, introverted loner. The last thing I want is a nice cosy chat with the f#####g greengrocer. Just give me the veg without the chat, you t#sser. And if the streaming service goes kaput? Oh horror. That's just like swapping to a different service and starting afresh. I've done that a lot as I've tried most of the streaming services. And it's really great. I start out anew discovering new music, using the fabulous exploratory resources that these services provide. And it's dead easy to find old favourites. Bring it on!!
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,378
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2024 8:38:16 GMT
Sorry Oli - I should have said - I enjoyed reading your article. Not sure what this obscure music you're listening to is though...you want to put some Zappa on mate Thanks Martin. Yes, it's been a bit of a journey of strange music recently. However, I'm enjoying a lot of stuff I'm hearing. Led Zep and the like are still in my arsenal 😉
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,378
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2024 8:39:29 GMT
Thanks Jerry, Nothing like stinging criticism first thing in the morning 😂😂 TBF, I could have addressed the fact that user interface was null and void due to the X50D s appalling management of any streaming service, which makes them all pretty equal Hmmm, I'll give this some thought. Yeah, sorry about that. I must have woke up cross this morning. 😂 But hey, there must be just so much sycophantic brown nosing you can take even on your own forum. And, yes, bypassing the streaming service's UI is probably something you should have mentioned. 👍 Amazon Music's UI is a thing of horror and desolation. No, I'm actually very grateful for the feedback. Your points regarding what was missing from the review are spot on. I have taken note.
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 11, 2024 8:41:33 GMT
It's the age old battle between the old farts stuck in their ruts, and the sprightly youngsters eager for new experiences.
Except our ages are the wrong way round. 😂
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 11, 2024 8:54:04 GMT
Oli >>That's modern day programmers for you. None of them can do a good GUI if you put a gun to their heads.<<
It sounds like perhaps you haven't experienced Qobuz' or Tidal's or, best of all, Spotify's own UI?
They are quite impressive. And they really show up Amazon Music for a pile of sh#te, unfortunately. Your review readers need to know that. And you need to experience it to see for yourself and to determine your own opinion.
I would guess that most folks use the services' own UIs.
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Post by pete on Nov 11, 2024 9:05:18 GMT
I enjoyed the review Oli and great that you did it. Everything I thought has been said really.
I agree regarding the inconsistency and missing out the opportunity streaming services give to find new music, but that is aside from concentrating on best SQ.
Like you, Martin, and others, the going into the shop and browsing, choosing and chatting is all part of the experience for me, how that should fit into the review I’m not sure, maybe it is for a different review on finding new music.
You have always written informative and enjoyable reviews of equipment which I, and other have really enjoyed. All I can suggest is stick with that style and develop from there.
Thanks for sharing 😁
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2024 9:06:34 GMT
Oli >>That's modern day programmers for you. None of them can do a good GUI if you put a gun to their heads.<< It sounds like perhaps you haven't experienced Qobuz' or Tidal's or, best of all, Spotify's own UI? They are quite impressive. And they really show up Amazon Music for a pile of sh#te, unfortunately. Your review readers need to know that. And you need to experience it to see for yourself and to determine your own opinion. I would guess that most folks use the services' own UIs. I have used Spotify - only at someone else's place where they hand me an i-pad thingy and asked me to select something. Anytime that happens my mind goes blank. So you can type in anything and it finds it but what do you type in? Or you can scroll down. It starts with 'A' which is logical, but because there's so much on there you can be scrolling down through 'A' for the rest of the morning. Now at home if I want music but nothing specific I just go over to the alcove with all my music in and browse along the shelve. I don't have to scroll through a load of stuff I'm not interested in because this is my collection and so I like all of it. Anytime I get handed that i-pad you know what I put on? AC-DC because it's near the start and I know I like it. Of course in my collection it's the best mastering because I made that choice, on Spotify it's whatever they choose to give you. And it's not even lossless. I'm sorry but streaming sucks. Big time. In lots of ways.
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Post by pete on Nov 11, 2024 9:09:26 GMT
Oli >>That's modern day programmers for you. None of them can do a good GUI if you put a gun to their heads.<< It sounds like perhaps you haven't experienced Qobuz' or Tidal's or, best of all, Spotify's own UI? They are quite impressive. And they really show up Amazon Music for a pile of sh#te, unfortunately. Your review readers need to know that. And you need to experience it to see for yourself and to determine your own opinion. I would guess that most folks use the services' own UIs. I have used Spotify - only at someone else's place where they hand me an i-pad thingy and asked me to select something. Anytime that happens my mind goes blank. So you can type in anything and it finds it but what do you type in? Or you can scroll down. It starts with 'A' which is logical, but because there's so much on there you can be scrolling down through 'A' for the rest of the morning. Now at home if I want music but nothing specific I just go over to the alcove with all my music in and browse along the shelve. I don't have to scroll through a load of stuff I'm not interested in because this is my collection and so I like all of it. Anytime I get handed that i-pad you know what I put on? AC-DC because it's near the start and I know I like it. Of course in my collection it's the best mastering because I made that choice, on Spotify it's whatever they choose to give you. And it's not even lossless. I'm sorry but streaming sucks. Big time. In lots of ways. Completely agree with this experience. Maybe I have not used it enough and need to go past this stage?
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2024 9:22:29 GMT
I have used Spotify - only at someone else's place where they hand me an i-pad thingy and asked me to select something. Anytime that happens my mind goes blank. So you can type in anything and it finds it but what do you type in? Or you can scroll down. It starts with 'A' which is logical, but because there's so much on there you can be scrolling down through 'A' for the rest of the morning. Now at home if I want music but nothing specific I just go over to the alcove with all my music in and browse along the shelve. I don't have to scroll through a load of stuff I'm not interested in because this is my collection and so I like all of it. Anytime I get handed that i-pad you know what I put on? AC-DC because it's near the start and I know I like it. Of course in my collection it's the best mastering because I made that choice, on Spotify it's whatever they choose to give you. And it's not even lossless. I'm sorry but streaming sucks. Big time. In lots of ways. Completely agree with this experience. Maybe I have not used it enough and need to go past this stage? Glad it's not just me! I do read comments from others who have become disillusioned with it. Mostly because it's too easy to chop and change and they never sit and listen to a full album like they used to - and they miss that. Perhaps you do get used to it after a while? They say that about buggery. I don't know. And honestly, I'm not really interested in finding out.
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2024 9:43:51 GMT
Apologies if my comments on this thread are a bit negative - it's just a bit of fun.
I think we should all use the methods that suit us the best and I accept for some that's a streaming service.
Just wanted to point out it's not the universal panacea touted by some. (Not aimed at Jerry or anyone in particular).
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 11, 2024 9:46:59 GMT
So some people like something and others don't. Well, that's never happened before.
Yes, before I took up streaming for myself I tried using it at other people's places, and it sucked big time for the reasons mentioned and others.
But once I was finally nagged into trying it at home (it turned out to be trivial to start streaming from my phone, I had no idea) suddenly it all made sense and I'm a fully paid up convert to rented music.
Rented music suits my listening style anyway. I had a wall full of CDs most of which I hadn't played for years. Most albums I now play I didn't know about a fortnight before.
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Post by pete on Nov 11, 2024 10:13:37 GMT
Apologies for taking this further of track but a really important reason for me, and probably others, I like buying music,new, in whatever format, so the creater gets paid a reasonable amount for their work.
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 11, 2024 10:30:01 GMT
Apologies for taking this further of track but a really important reason for me, and probably others, I like buying music,new, in whatever format, so the creater gets paid a reasonable amount for their work. Yup. For me that's the major drawback of the current streaming model. I'd happily pay 50% more for my rented music if that went to the musicians and not into the pockets of the industry oligarchs. As a further aside, I did send a couple of payments to musician performers I enjoyed, sort of their go fund me accounts. I'm not sure what response I was expecting, certainly not a fanfare of trumpets and a tickertape parade. But I wasn't expecting to be totally ignored, either, but that's what happened. I didn't do it again. I've since learned about Patreon, a nicely positive environment, and I've signed up there.
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2024 10:58:29 GMT
If you get enough plays you can make decent scratch. I know someone who gets between £500 and £1200 a month in royalties from streaming. And has the gig fees plus the merch take on top of that.
Hard work but it is a living. As always the trick is to be good, then lots of people will listen.
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Post by bencat on Nov 11, 2024 11:00:02 GMT
Buying records from the shop in either vinyl or CD was a very frustrating thing for me . I liked large sections of music like Afro Beat , Salsa , Bossa Nova , Bhangra and many more that most shops had never heard of let alone stocked . Then you went to a specialist shop and doubled the price . So then I discovered the delights of Second Spin , Amazon and eBay to sell a huge selection of used Cd,s in every genre . So bought about 18 to 20 a month and some times more . Then came LMS and ripping all my music in Flac to a HD and playing this via players . Material Skin GUI appeared and playing what I wanted became so much easier . My own experience from early on was that most Albums had three perhaps four tracks that were great then lots of filler . Now I could hit the random button and I had a huge jukebox that played my music in different sequences . This is how I listen still . I have yet found any streaming service that gets the idea of true random Sinartravthen Femi Kuti just does not happen and they all seem to take a root from the first track played and follow that genre not what I want . I want true random and constant surprise if something comes on and I do not want to hear it right then then that is what the skip button is for .
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2024 11:14:22 GMT
Seems to me like there's still a gap in the market for a streaming service that does everything that people want and does it well - with a good GUI.
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 11, 2024 11:17:14 GMT
I think what Andrew bencat wants is an app that can read his mind. That might take a little longer to become available. Most of the current streaming services really are very good and would meet most people's needs.
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Post by bencat on Nov 11, 2024 11:27:35 GMT
Jerry if there is ever an App that can read my mind then the world will end and the App will run screaming from the room . What I want is an algorithm that mimics true random choice from a library so that there are weightings given to the first track . It is easy to see that Tidal , Qobuz and Spotify and Deezer all give too much weight to the first track either chosen or played . If it is a reggae track then the next or the third track will be a reggae track . If it is a Afro Beat track then the list will be peppered with Afro Beat tracks . What I want is the surprise , it is why I turn off the star ratings I do not want it to play just five star rated tracks I want strange pairings . Under a plugin on LMS there is huge list of different randoms you can use including least played tracks , never played tracks and other options . This is what would be good on streaming services to let you choose how random you want a list to be .
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2024 11:52:06 GMT
This is the trouble with so called AI
Same on Amazon. You buy a hoover and then next day 'Recommended For You' is more hoovers.
Eh? I just bought a hoover - surely it can work out that the last thing I will be interested in buying the very next day is another one?
Can it not think 'This bloke just bought a hoover, must be interested in a clean house', and then offer other cleaning products? Really how hard would that be?
But no. Skynet and The Matrix are still a long way off it seems.
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Post by pete on Nov 11, 2024 14:03:28 GMT
This is the trouble with so called AI Same on Amazon. You buy a hoover and then next day 'Recommended For You' is more hoovers. Eh? I just bought a hoover - surely it can work out that the last thing I will be interested in buying the very next day is another one? Can it not think 'This bloke just bought a hoover, must be interested in a clean house', and then offer other cleaning products? Really how hard would that be? But no. Skynet and The Matrix are still a long way off it seems. Skynet, the real one used to be just up the road from me, and as for The Matrix how do we know we are not already there!!! Agree with your Amazon suggestion thoughts, thought of a different career??
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Post by stevew on Nov 11, 2024 18:13:39 GMT
Well done on the Hi-Fi Bear initiative. Still not sure about the name, could be raising some interest in other quarters. You have a really good skill - with the ability to express written thoughts on audio and equipment with the benefit of sensitive and analytical hearing. When I read Jerry’s critique I thought ‘ well… there’s a grumpy bugger at 4 in the morning !’. However on reflection, I think he has some valid points. Perhaps the comments on sampling rates could form part of the introduction and a tad more clarity on who was winning the ripped vs streamed battle.? Overall though, it’s a great extension to the writing you have provided in your blog. For me the streaming platforms (mainly Qobuz) now form the basis of my digital side, but it has some severe downsides. Missing tracks. Did my head in the other day looking for some Tracey Thorn tracks, especially the early stuff. Here’s a screen shot of a compilation album of her early output… same result on Spotify and Amazon music. Obviously a conscious decision to exclude stuff from streaming … but it’s not that rare.
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