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Post by dsjr on Aug 29, 2018 18:22:38 GMT
Using headphones a lot as I have to do presently, I've been comparing different phono stages, admittedly only one being current production (NVA). What I'm about to discuss is on MM level, let alone the significantly more sensitive MC level.
I think it's fair to say that phono stages and *racks* aren't really compatible. Hum is always there and as the stages are moved about, this hum comes and goes, so not a steady state situation. Donkeys years ago, a Naim 32.5 'sounded' better when kept well away from a nearby HiCap - and the induced hum was tiny on the MC 'K' boards I remember...
Whether in an amp or external, I feel it's VITAL for a phono stage to be separated away from other units with transformers inside. I can't believe how sensitive metal cased units can be, let alone taking it for granted with an NVA with plastic case. Any motor noise in the deck - and some do generate a fair amount through the stylus, especially vintage idler drives, as well as induced hum (Regas with some pickups) will be added to by any further hum fields and any form of 'fidelity' in the turntable system will be much reduced and/or lost altogether.
If you MUST regard vinyl as a serious high fidelity source, then HUM is a very genuine and serious killer, even at fairly low levels. take attention to minimising or eliminating this and you'll benefit hugely when playing records I reckon.
Apologies if this is granny sucking eggs to you all, but I was shocked this aft when trying to play a record in the workroom and the frustration it caused annoyed me...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 19:18:13 GMT
Right Dave I wi!l discuss........just don't get all techno on me fukin ass......OK I have used an NVA Phono 2 (2 PSU) for a while now. It is slap bang in the middle of a steel / glass rack. It is surounded on all sides by power amps with fuk off nasty transformers. It is fed by Bog standard Scottish mains. it is paired with the best high output MM cart in the world ( GOLDRING 1042 ) TT - Technics 1210 MK5 IT IS AS QUIET AS A MOUSE WITH A TOM CAT LOOKING IN THE WINDOW.....DEATHLY SILENT.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 19:42:59 GMT
What is this HUM people speak of...........?
ššš
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Post by dsjr on Aug 29, 2018 20:42:51 GMT
Then you're supremely lucky that your 'Tupperware' phono stage is silent - sorry, I couldn't help it - and I'm genuinely pleased for you - seriously.
My Phono 2 is quiet as well, but since typical MC cartridge types have generally a tenth of the output of your 1042, you can possibly see why an MC phono stage may well be more sensitive to any hum fields that may be around and may be 'hissier' too.
I was shocked frankly, as all the crap spewed out against NVA by non NVA owners concerning the perspex casework being no good (I'm ignoring the personal Sh#t), yet the Phono 2 is well behaved when it shouldn't be... and so called superior metal cased stages picked up induced hum fields too easily in my opinion...
I still think people with record players should take care over this aspect though as best they can, as I feel the 'sound' benefits too the less hum there is in the background...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 29, 2018 21:30:01 GMT
Then you're supremely lucky that your 'Tupperware' phono stage is silent - sorry, I couldn't help it - and I'm genuinely pleased for you - seriously. My Phono 2 is quiet as well, but since typical MC cartridge types have generally a tenth of the output of your 1042, you can possibly see why an MC phono stage may well be more sensitive to any hum fields that may be around and may be 'hissier' too. I was shocked frankly, as all the crap spewed out against NVA by non NVA owners concerning the perspex casework being no good (I'm ignoring the personal Sh#t), yet the Phono 2 is well behaved when it shouldn't be... and so called superior metal cased stages picked up induced hum fields too easily in my opinion... I still think people with record players should take care over this aspect though as best they can, as I feel the 'sound' benefits too the less hum there is in the background... I do t think itās anything to do with the plastic casework. My older (metal cased) NVA preamp was sensitive to anything being placed anywhere near it. That was only after I changed to MC and sent the amp back to be changed. It was fine with MM. I believe the basic circuit hasnāt changed so itās probably more to do with the design than anything. My Michell Iso also has a plastic case but it isnāt bothered about being sat next to other stuff. I guess it will bother some people having to space kit out, but others wonāt give a monkeys. |
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Post by macca on Aug 30, 2018 6:36:42 GMT
There shouldn't be any hum never mind taking steps to reduce it. It's amazing what people will put up with. That phono stage bake -off at MCRU where there was hum and the overall sound quality, from the descriptions, seemed to be generally poor. From 60 grands worth of kit. How can you evaluate anything in that situation? As soon as I see someone say 'Yes there was some hum but you couldn't hear it once the music started' I walk away without making eye contact.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 6:53:02 GMT
I'm with you macca, their system is deeply flawed somewhere along the line if that's the case.
Oh and......
I've never been a fan of MC Cartridges, and i dont buy into the obligatory (They're better than MM) mindset.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 8:20:26 GMT
No problems with hum in either of my systems. Yonks ago, when I lived in That London, the phono stage would regularly pick up signals from minicab radios, but now everything's inky-black silent between tracks even with the volume turned up.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 30, 2018 8:25:14 GMT
There's an extra sense of 'precision' with many good MC's though, where MM types are either toppy or beefy but rarely both (can't describe it further). High frequencies are usually more extended with MC types, but you'd have to work at it - expensively - for full potential. Bass can be more 'solid' with a well matched MC.
As you say though, depends on the items concerned, how they match together and of course, personal taste... MM's have come along hugely and I'm stunned how Rega still sell their squidgy old MM's designed in the dark ages - ugh! They pick up hum from the deck motors too.
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Post by macca on Aug 30, 2018 11:51:24 GMT
There's an extra sense of 'precision' with many good MC's though, where MM types are either toppy or beefy but rarely both (can't describe it further). High frequencies are usually more extended with MC types, but you'd have to work at it - expensively - for full potential. Bass can be more 'solid' with a well matched MC. As you say though, depends on the items concerned, how they match together and of course, personal taste... MM's have come along hugely and I'm stunned how Rega still sell their squidgy old MM's designed in the dark ages - ugh! They pick up hum from the deck motors too. They don't have more extended high frequencies though, you can see from the plots that both MM and MC are flat to 20Khz
MCs can have a sort of 'glittery' effect at the top end though, which does sound like they are more refined and accurate although I suspect it is just an artefact since it isn't present on CDs
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Post by dsjr on Aug 30, 2018 14:44:55 GMT
the tip resonance of MC's is or used to be 40k+ according to the reviews I have here and they're very good at reproducing cutter ringing by all accounts. The 'glittery' artefact is most possibly a rise over 10k coupled with a phono stage not able to deal with it. SPU's and DL103's don't 'glitter' AT ALL in recent experience  |
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Post by macca on Aug 30, 2018 17:02:43 GMT
I agree the modern SPU sound like digital, or very close. My first thought when I heard one was 'what's the point of that?' DL103 is just crude in the top. Not poor sounding, but it's too coloured for me.
Denon DLS-1 - now that's an MC that gets it right to my ears. Not syrupy but not cold and clinical either.
Back to racks - I'd like one of those professional jobs where I could stack about 10 units in it but they are silly money. Still using my old 3 tier Apollo I bought in about 1993 or so. Loads of utter bollocks talked about racks and what they do. Your turntable cares what it sits on, pretty much nothing else does. And most racks are not optimised for putting a TT on, they are generally designed to look fancy and expensive and that's it.
I see systems with really expensive turntables and the TT is just sat on a sideboard. That really is sub-optimal especially for a sprung suspension deck but I suppose WAF dictates it. Waste of an expensive deck, though.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 30, 2018 18:23:12 GMT
Some racks can make a difference to the sonics of some electronics, I don't know why (these for instance - www.decoaudio.com/deco_audio_something_solid.html), but it was repeatable to us in the shop. I can't demonstrate the fact, so it's all empty words sadly  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 30, 2018 18:48:08 GMT
Some racks can make a difference to the sonics of some electronics, I don't know why (these for instance - www.decoaudio.com/deco_audio_something_solid.html), but it was repeatable to us in the shop. I can't demonstrate the fact, so it's all empty words sadly I love the Something Solod speaker stands. I still live in hope of grabbing a pair. The racks are a bit too industrial for me but they do look well made. |
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Post by macca on Aug 31, 2018 6:29:29 GMT
Some racks can make a difference to the sonics of some electronics, I don't know why (these for instance - www.decoaudio.com/deco_audio_something_solid.html), but it was repeatable to us in the shop. I can't demonstrate the fact, so it's all empty words sadly Not if it was a controlled blind test and you can show the results. But I'm guessing it wasn't. If there was a turntable in the system then it's hardly surprising but the idea that what you sit a transistor amp, cd player, laptop. streamer etc on has an effect on the sound is demonstrably wrong. I use to put a weight on top of my cd player because I thought it made a marginal improvement. We've all been there. But it's just silly. The imagination is very powerful. It's why we think we hear improvement from all sorts of crazy tweaks. The vendors are just exploiting a flaw in basic human psychology. |
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Post by antonio on Aug 31, 2018 7:28:26 GMT
Macca, how many blind tests have you had at a dealers? I was always led to believe that the 2nd dem was always going to be more favourable than the 1st, so yes you are correct, imagination is very powerful. Two of us went to dem racks and only a cd player was moved, the differences were marginal with repeated dems we did find one rack to be better and luckily enough it happened to be the most stylish.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 31, 2018 7:42:10 GMT
I dunno any more. Definitely hear real differences with turntable support, as Martin says. I used to hear clear differences with an Isoplat under my CD player, Same with Black Ravioli. These days itās Foculpods.
The thing is, I used to āhearā similar differences with mains cables. Nowadays I donāt seem to notice. Itās been ages since I tried adding and removing CD player isolation and tbh I just canāt be bothered experimenting. These days I just stick the hifi on and spin a CD or two. If the differences exist, they arenāt big enough to make me care.
One day I may get the hifi bug again, but for now Iām happy being bug-free.
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Post by macca on Aug 31, 2018 7:59:29 GMT
Macca, how many blind tests have you had at a dealers? I was always led to believe that the 2nd dem was always going to be more favourable than the 1st, so yes you are correct, imagination is very powerful. Two of us went to dem racks and only a cd player was moved, the differences were marginal with repeated dems we did find one rack to be better and luckily enough it happened to be the most stylish. None at a dealers, did one at home with interconnects, that was a bit of a revelation for me. |
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Post by dsjr on Aug 31, 2018 8:46:53 GMT
Some racks can make a difference to the sonics of some electronics, I don't know why (these for instance - www.decoaudio.com/deco_audio_something_solid.html), but it was repeatable to us in the shop. I can't demonstrate the fact, so it's all empty words sadly Not if it was a controlled blind test and you can show the results. But I'm guessing it wasn't. If there was a turntable in the system then it's hardly surprising but the idea that what you sit a transistor amp, cd player, laptop. streamer etc on has an effect on the sound is demonstrably wrong. I use to put a weight on top of my cd player because I thought it made a marginal improvement. We've all been there. But it's just silly. The imagination is very powerful. It's why we think we hear improvement from all sorts of crazy tweaks. The vendors are just exploiting a flaw in basic human psychology. No macca, you're wrong in this and a turntable wasn't involved - it was Arcam FMJ original kit. Arcam did a bit of internal work on the chips to minimise this, so something must have been up with this generation of kit. You won't believe me, so I'll shut up now, but I heard it and it was repeatable. |
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Post by antonio on Aug 31, 2018 8:48:01 GMT
I dunno any more. Definitely hear real differences with turntable support, as Martin says. I used to hear clear differences with an Isoplat under my CD player, Same with Black Ravioli. These days itās Foculpods. The thing is, I used to āhearā similar differences with mains cables. Nowadays I donāt seem to notice. Itās been ages since I tried adding and removing CD player isolation and tbh I just canāt be bothered experimenting. These days I just stick the hifi on and spin a CD or two. If the differences exist, they arenāt big enough to make me care. One day I may get the hifi bug again, but for now Iām happy being bug-free. I feel the same way about experimenting with isolation ect. Happy with the way things are at the moment. Would like to have my Pink Triangle serviced but it means travelling all the way across country. |
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Post by macca on Aug 31, 2018 11:07:22 GMT
Not if it was a controlled blind test and you can show the results. But I'm guessing it wasn't. If there was a turntable in the system then it's hardly surprising but the idea that what you sit a transistor amp, cd player, laptop. streamer etc on has an effect on the sound is demonstrably wrong. I use to put a weight on top of my cd player because I thought it made a marginal improvement. We've all been there. But it's just silly. The imagination is very powerful. It's why we think we hear improvement from all sorts of crazy tweaks. The vendors are just exploiting a flaw in basic human psychology. No macca, you're wrong in this and a turntable wasn't involved - it was Arcam FMJ original kit. Arcam did a bit of internal work on the chips to minimise this, so something must have been up with this generation of kit. You won't believe me, so I'll shut up now, but I heard it and it was repeatable. I believe you heard what you heard but the fact that it was repeatable doesn't prove that anything was really happening. If you measured the output from the FMJ do you really think it would be different sat on the special rack compared to being sat on a table top? These things have been tested at length an it just makes no difference at all. I suppose there is the old fallback of 'we can't measure everything' but that's clutching at straws IMO. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 31, 2018 18:33:11 GMT
Speaking of racks, I found this article earlier about using Ikea Aptilig as shelves. Iāve seen them mentioned before and they look good. Such a pity about the slopes edge though. www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/ikea_aptitlig.htm |
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Post by antonio on Sept 1, 2018 5:12:17 GMT
Very similar to one that I use Westie, purchased from Argos, unfortunately no longer sold. When I was looking for a bamboo chopping board, the difficulty was getting one the right size for my tt to sit on.
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 1, 2018 8:57:04 GMT
I just love finding out about non hifi stuff you can get for low money and re-purpose. Such a pity about that sloped edge. If I was 100% confident I could straighten it off and leave no trace of the work, Iād snap some up now.
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