|
|
Post by firebottle on Mar 28, 2023 11:17:23 GMT
Yes for proper termination you need the through terminator.
The ability to disconnect the internal 75 ohm termination is to allow for daisy chaining to other units, so in that case only the end unit needs terminating.
|
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Mar 28, 2023 11:30:34 GMT
Good enough chaps have ordered one and will keep it in hand until my cable arrived which as they say it is being hand constructed might be ten days or more . As always will advise what if anything I hear . Not sure if I should try just the cable straight to see if that makes any difference and then add the through terminator or just for the whole thing . Will see my mood on the day and then report back .
|
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Mar 28, 2023 11:36:05 GMT
I would suggest the use of one of these for termination I would take these over anything on ebay for this application.
|
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Mar 28, 2023 11:40:23 GMT
Good enough chaps have ordered one and will keep it in hand until my cable arrived which as they say it is being hand constructed might be ten days or more . As always will advise what if anything I hear . Not sure if I should try just the cable straight to see if that makes any difference and then add the through terminator or just for the whole thing . Will see my mood on the day and then report back .
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Apr 1, 2023 8:13:50 GMT
no head shaking here, making changes to your set up and perceiving differences is completely normal. Maybe it won't happen for an alien but for us humans it's inevitable. The difference in signal Tony shows is in no way sufficient to be audible, it does not matter how revealing your system is. For best practice you should have the correct impedance digital cable. Will sound quality deteriorate if you don't? No. Tony's measurements demonstrate that. His subjective opinion on audibility has the same value as mine or anyone else's, that is - none whatsoever. I only commented because otherwise everything on this site is one way traffic and others reading who are not members and not already convinced might assume, due to an absence of contradiction, that it is gospel. Contradictory position is absolutely fine, but contradiction of Tony's subjective opinion isn't enough. As I said, I don't know what I'm looking at here, other than what looks like a pretty obvious measurable difference between two cables of differing impedance. The question of whether using impedance matched cables makes any difference was asked, and Tony has provided evidence that it does to the point of being measurable. I asked if it was audible, and Tony says so.... Tell us (and the Lurkers) what we're looking at in those measurements that demonstrates that it isn't audible and why you disagree with Tony. sorry for the late reply have had a lot going on in and out of work so not had the energy. Other members will no doubt rejoice.  The problem with the measurements Tony shows is that it is impossible to judge audibility from them. What we need to see is what is happening at the analogue output - i,e the signal we actually hear. For instance we could measure your mains voltage and show measurable differences from minute to minute but that does not mean the electrical signal going to your speakers has changed. it does make sense to optimise every aspect of the signal chain if you have the money to do that. I do that myself, peace of mind. Just don't agree with encouraging FOMO without real evidence. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,430
|
Post by Bigman80 on Apr 1, 2023 8:19:49 GMT
Contradictory position is absolutely fine, but contradiction of Tony's subjective opinion isn't enough. As I said, I don't know what I'm looking at here, other than what looks like a pretty obvious measurable difference between two cables of differing impedance. The question of whether using impedance matched cables makes any difference was asked, and Tony has provided evidence that it does to the point of being measurable. I asked if it was audible, and Tony says so.... Tell us (and the Lurkers) what we're looking at in those measurements that demonstrates that it isn't audible and why you disagree with Tony. sorry for the late reply have had a lot going on in and out of work so not had the energy. Other members will no doubt rejoice. The problem with the measurements Tony shows is that it is impossible to judge audibility from them. What we need to see is what is happening at the analogue output - i,e the signal we actually hear. For instance we could measure your mains voltage and show measurable differences from minute to minute but that does not mean the electrical signal going to your speakers has changed. it does make sense to optimise every aspect of the signal chain if you have the money to do that. I do that myself, peace of mind. Just don't agree with encouraging FOMO without real evidence. No worries Macca, hope all is ok and it's positive stuff keeping you busy. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Apr 1, 2023 8:23:46 GMT
sorry for the late reply have had a lot going on in and out of work so not had the energy. Other members will no doubt rejoice. The problem with the measurements Tony shows is that it is impossible to judge audibility from them. What we need to see is what is happening at the analogue output - i,e the signal we actually hear. For instance we could measure your mains voltage and show measurable differences from minute to minute but that does not mean the electrical signal going to your speakers has changed. it does make sense to optimise every aspect of the signal chain if you have the money to do that. I do that myself, peace of mind. Just don't agree with encouraging FOMO without real evidence. No worries Macca, hope all is ok and it's positive stuff keeping you busy. yeah all fine mate just working 12 hour days plus now some romantic entanglement too. Never rains but it pours. |
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Apr 1, 2023 8:24:01 GMT
Sorry with regard to digital this just does not work . With an analogue chain the input signal is directly comparable to each other and differences can be measured and compared to each other . With digital the input is a digital file but the output is an analogue signal and in no way are they comparable with each other . What you measure at the output is what you hear and the best measure of that is your ears .
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,430
|
Post by Bigman80 on Apr 1, 2023 8:25:38 GMT
No worries Macca, hope all is ok and it's positive stuff keeping you busy. yeah all fine mate just working 12 hour days plus now some romantic entanglement too. Never rains but it pours. Romantic Entanglement!!!!! It must be all that mojo of being the gaffer 💪 Money, power, romance.... outstanding |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Apr 1, 2023 8:30:54 GMT
being the gaffer is over-rated.
One bright spark is that my first month in charge has been the best month they've ever had. Not really down to me but am hoping to get some reflected glory out of it.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,430
|
Post by Bigman80 on Apr 1, 2023 8:43:19 GMT
being the gaffer is over-rated. One bright spark is that my first month in charge has been the best month they've ever had. Not really down to me but am hoping to get some reflected glory out of it. Take the glory mate. It doesn't happen all that often. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Apr 1, 2023 9:05:10 GMT
Sorry with regard to digital this just does not work . With an analogue chain the input signal is directly comparable to each other and differences can be measured and compared to each other . With digital the input is a digital file but the output is an analogue signal and in no way are they comparable with each other . What you measure at the output is what you hear and the best measure of that is your ears . digital and analogue sources do work differently but what they do is exactly the same - they both output a varying voltage which energises a magnet and makes a cone vibrate. It's not 'music' in those cables, just DC. It's not even music when it hits your ears. It's only music once your brain decodes the patterns of air pressure - and adds a whole bunch of other stuff to that information: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#:~:text=Other%20%20%20%20Name%20%20%20,it%20extr%20...%20%2024%20more%20rows%20) listening is the only way to decide if you like it or not but it's useless for making deductions as to what is happening from a technical point of view. |
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,626 
|
Post by optical on Apr 1, 2023 9:10:34 GMT
I'm sure there's better available but I just put one of these in the chain (and changed the Mutec input to 50ohm). amzn.eu/d/albqd85Seems to do the trick, subjectively it has made the clocks effect even more apparent.... Not wanting to divert the thread too much towards measurements but just a quick question; Would a pair of standard (cheap) red and white phono leads measure exactly the same at the output as a (subjectively) "better" sounding pair? And, if so, why doesn't everyone just use them.... ?? Obviously that's a rudimentary example and analogue as opposed to digital (as in this case) but it's a serious question. What would measure differently to indicate that they would in fact, sound superior, all things being equal without any interference from outside factors (electrical noise etc).... |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Apr 1, 2023 9:18:19 GMT
I'm sure there's better available but I just put one of these in the chain (and changed the Mutec input to 50ohm). amzn.eu/d/albqd85Seems to do the trick, subjectively it has made the clocks effect even more apparent.... Not wanting to divert the thread too much towards measurements but just a quick question; Would a pair of standard (cheap) red and white phono leads measure exactly the same at the output as a (subjectively) "better" sounding pair? And, if so, why doesn't everyone just use them.... ?? Obviously that's a rudimentary example and analogue as opposed to digital (as in this case) but it's a serious question. What would measure differently, all things being equal without any interference from outside factors (electrical noise etc).... Assuming they were not broken and not picking up any RFI or EMF (they tend to be unshielded), and assuming there was not some weird impedance match happening with the equipment they were connecting, then yes, they will measure the same. But note that there are caveats which have to be taken into account in a 'real world' set up. What we think is making a difference isn't always the thing that is actually making the difference. Yes I have heard differences between freebie cables and fancy ones. But not always, the use context is important. Wire doesn't introduce any noise or distortion in and of itself if that is what you are asking. This thread is in the measurements section so I wouldn't worry about talking measurements  |
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,626
|
Post by optical on Apr 1, 2023 9:24:12 GMT
I'm sure there's better available but I just put one of these in the chain (and changed the Mutec input to 50ohm). amzn.eu/d/albqd85Seems to do the trick, subjectively it has made the clocks effect even more apparent.... Not wanting to divert the thread too much towards measurements but just a quick question; Would a pair of standard (cheap) red and white phono leads measure exactly the same at the output as a (subjectively) "better" sounding pair? And, if so, why doesn't everyone just use them.... ?? Obviously that's a rudimentary example and analogue as opposed to digital (as in this case) but it's a serious question. What would measure differently, all things being equal without any interference from outside factors (electrical noise etc).... Assuming they were not broken and not picking up any RFI or EMF (they tend to be unshielded), and assuming there was not some weird impedance match happening with the equipment they were connecting, then yes, they will measure the same. But note that there are caveats which have to be taken into account in a 'real world' set up. What we think is making a difference isn't always the thing that is actually making the difference. Yes I have heard differences between freebie cables and fancy ones. But not always, the use context is important. Wire doesn't introduce any noise or distortion in and of itself if that is what you are asking. This thread is in the measurements section so I wouldn't worry about talking measurements Fair point on the measurements section 😂 Hadn't realised, measurements away! Like I say it's a serious question, as you say many other factors at play. Electrons travelling through wire, voltage etc, there is logic to that, I'm sure there is logic to be applied as to why a lot of folk are hearing differences with these sort of tweaks even if they are supposedly inaudible. Not all of that can be attributed to bias, although admittedly potentially another strong factor. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Apr 1, 2023 9:31:19 GMT
when people are tested with cables it does usually turn out that they cannot hear the differences they could when they know what cable is in use.
There is the famous case of Michael Livorgna where he could not distinguish multi-thousand pound MIT cables from cheap Monster cable despite being very confident that he could.
Or the Florida dealer who could not distinguish his very expensive valve monoblocks from an old Yamaha solid state integrated. (albeit it was a very good amp).
had the same experience myself, super confident I could hear the obvious difference between 16/44.1 and 24/192. With controls applied, I couldn't. Not in a million years. So I no longer try to use my ears as analysers. They just tell me if I like it or I don't.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pigmy Pony on Apr 2, 2023 9:52:31 GMT
being the gaffer is over-rated. One bright spark is that my first month in charge has been the best month they've ever had. Not really down to me but am hoping to get some reflected glory out of it. He'll be saying that to his new "romantic entanglement"  |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,430
|
Post by Bigman80 on Apr 2, 2023 9:53:38 GMT
Take the glory mate. It doesn't happen all that often. He'll be saying that to his new "romantic entanglement" 🤣🤣 |
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Apr 2, 2023 13:46:55 GMT
Well I will ask the question then I know how you can measure the analogue input and output and yes as you say these can be compared one against the other but not sure what this would either show or give you information to know what the differences if any were found would sound like . However the digital file input has no real correlation with the final out put to the speakers despite what you say what is being output is the information for an amplifier to recreate the analogue wave form through your speakers / headphones this is very different to what was put in to the start of your digital chain . In the case being talked about here as far as I am aware and there will no doubt be someone with better technical knowledge who can correct me a Master Clock added in the chain will not alter the digital file in any way the 1s and 0s in the file will stay the same . What it will do is make the base on which those numbers are generated more accurate and easier to convert with great accuracy . Now how you measure that I have no clue but I can tell you how you can hear what it is doing and what it sounds like . When they can measure why with certain pieces of music I can cry almost every time i listen to it then I will be able to use that measurement to sort out the equipment i would like to hear . Sadly I doubt this will ever be possible in my lifetime so will just have to do the old fashioned thing and listen and decide is this good or bad . I will still get told in that ever so superior way that I am fooling myself , it is just bias or the placebo effect or that it is distortion that i find attractive all of which is just so much hot air . If there is a broad band distortion that I have put in the chain then it will be the same for every piece of music I play but its not . As With the quality of recordings the better the recording the better the sound uplift but even poor recordings are helped so I will do what I can to make things a little better listening to the advice over impedance mismatches and settle back to enjoy the musical fun .
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Apr 2, 2023 14:17:21 GMT
Well I will ask the question then I know how you can measure the analogue input and output and yes as you say these can be compared one against the other but not sure what this would either show or give you information to know what the differences if any were found would sound like . However the digital file input has no real correlation with the final out put to the speakers despite what you say what is being output is the information for an amplifier to recreate the analogue wave form through your speakers / headphones this is very different to what was put in to the start of your digital chain . In the case being talked about here as far as I am aware and there will no doubt be someone with better technical knowledge who can correct me a Master Clock added in the chain will not alter the digital file in any way the 1s and 0s in the file will stay the same . What it will do is make the base on which those numbers are generated more accurate and easier to convert with great accuracy . Now how you measure that I have no clue but I can tell you how you can hear what it is doing and what it sounds like . When they can measure why with certain pieces of music I can cry almost every time i listen to it then I will be able to use that measurement to sort out the equipment i would like to hear . Sadly I doubt this will ever be possible in my lifetime so will just have to do the old fashioned thing and listen and decide is this good or bad . I will still get told in that ever so superior way that I am fooling myself , it is just bias or the placebo effect or that it is distortion that i find attractive all of which is just so much hot air . If there is a broad band distortion that I have put in the chain then it will be the same for every piece of music I play but its not . As With the quality of recordings the better the recording the better the sound uplift but even poor recordings are helped so I will do what I can to make things a little better listening to the advice over impedance mismatches and settle back to enjoy the musical fun . nobody is telling you that you are fooling yourself or telling you anything - stop being so defensive, it males it really difficult to have any sort of discussion. We look at the analogue output because that is the signal going on to the amp and then to the speakers so we can see if there are audible levels of noise or distortion, if the frequency response is flat, and a number of other criteria all of which can be used to judge if any change is taking place and, if so, if that change is potentially audible. You are correct the clock does not change the content of the audio file in any way but it is not impossible that it does other things that may change the signal. Most DACs these days have an internal clock so no matter how many clocks are in front of that the signal is still re-clocked again in the DAC. Only the last reclocking will matter. But you are using a very old DAC - in DAC terms - so that may not be happening in your particular use case. It is a placebo effect? Maybe, we cannot rule it out. We are all affected by cognitive biases, everyone of us will occasionally perceive differences when in fact there are none. Is that happening with these external clocks? I don't know. There are too many parameters at play to make definitive statements without a lot more technical information on each individual use case. Each system can be different. |
|
