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Post by macca on Oct 23, 2022 10:31:04 GMT
Following on from discussion this thread audioaddictsforum.com/thread/2597/ekta-mkiis-keeping-design-alive thought I would add a little to my comment I made there regarding loudspeaker break-in. I got the impression from what Jason posted that he was listening to the speakers, not being entirely happy with them, but then continuing to run them in for many hours after in the hope that they would 'loosen up' more and that the sound would improve due to this. He's since elaborated on that thread that that was not what he was doing, so fair enough but I think this is still a useful topic to discuss as a little knowledge here can save some expensive mistakes and disappointments. It's commonly accepted audiophile wisdom that speakers break in and that this process can take hundreds of hours. Indeed many manufacturers now state that their speakers will not reach optimum performance until 100 hours of use (Audionote) or even more in some cases. Zu for example state that they burn in their speakers at the factory for 500 hours Is this all complete bollocks, and if so, why are those claims being made? Firstly, a bit of common-sense. Drive unit manufacturers test their drivers before they ship them. And loudspeaker manufacturers - the competent ones anyway - test their loudspeakers before they ship them. If nothing else this is so that you get a pair of speakers that match in terms of output level, you don't want one louder than the other for the same power input. So when you open the box on your brand new drive unit or speaker it is not virgin. It has already had some use. I posted a link on the other thread to an ASR test where a newly unboxed speaker was compared to one with several hours on it, measurements showed no change. Here's a further fairly brief article, again with some measurements, that also shows no appreciable change in driver performance beyond a couple of minutes of use. Worth reading as it goes into more detail about what is happening than I am going to here - www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction-page-2So why do some manufacturers make these claims about hundreds of hours of break in improving the speaker when they are clearly nonsense? The obvious reason is that they do not want you to return the speaker if you are initially unhappy with them. Consider the typical scenario in which you go to a dealer to audition speakers. You have a listen and like what you hear and decide to buy. You are not buying the demo pair, he goes in his stock room and brings out some speakers still in the box with the cellophane on. You get home and set them up and...they don't sound anything like as good as they did in the dealers. Why? because his set are 'run in' and yours are fresh out the box? No! It's because his room is different to your room in dimensions, furnishings and probably construction. The speaker suits his room, they don't suit yours. So you call him and he says ' Well Audionote (or whoever) recommend at least a hundred hours of break in.' So you persevere and ether get used to the sound, kid yourself on that you now like them, or take so long about it that you can no longer realistically return them. A good dealer would let you return them but even a good dealer doesn't want to do that, it's hassle and expense. And if enough people bring the speakers back because they can't get on with them, he may decide to stop stocking them, and the manufacturer loses a dealer and sales. This is the real reason that they will tell you that you need to put hundreds of hours on speaker to break them in. There is no truth to it whatsoever. What they sound like after twenty minutes or so (at the very most) is what they are always going to sound like. |
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Oct 23, 2022 11:10:11 GMT
Zu Audio are convinced of the value of 'burn in', and give their drive units a right old work out, much of it at levels that they would never get in a domestic setting. For 600 hours. They do state that a 'settling in' period may also be needed, anything from one to four weeks. And they have a 60 day return policy.
I don't know how other loudspeaker manufacturers have a period of factory burn-in, but I might expect that makers of drive units may only test the units, not burn them in.
Good point you make about dealers using this excuse to help keep buyers from returning speakers that "don't sound right" though.
But why would manufacturers persist with such claims when it can so easily be disproved through measurements?
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Oct 23, 2022 11:30:38 GMT
I personally have no problem believing that anything mechanical in operation will need a period of time for mating surfaces to 'smooth off' any high spots before they will move freely and so perform optimally. And this might be the case with everything from loudspeakers to car engines, braking systems, locking systems etc. Are these things measurable? I don't know.
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Post by macca on Oct 23, 2022 11:32:47 GMT
Zu Audio are convinced of the value of 'burn in', and give their drive units a right old work out, much of it at levels that they would never get in a domestic setting. For 600 hours. They do state that a 'settling in' period may also be needed, anything from one to four weeks. And they have a 60 day return policy. I don't know how other loudspeaker manufacturers have a period of factory burn-in, but I might expect that makers of drive units may only test the units, not burn them in. Good point you make about dealers using this excuse to help keep buyers from returning speakers that "don't sound right" though. But why would manufacturers persist with such claims when it can so easily be disproved through measurements? yes they only test the units but if you read the article I linked to this is sufficient to burn them in and no change takes place after that. He even goes back after 4 years of use and measures again - exactly the same! Manufacturers know their market, so a company making professional monitors (e,g Genelec) will just publish a lot of measurements as their potential customer is educated in that area, and they know that's what they will mainly base their decision on. Other manufacturers who play to the gallery. Crossovers are bad, full range drivers are good, low sensitivity is bad, high is good, low power amplifiers sound sweeter than high power amplifiers, everything needs hundreds of hours burn in to sound at its best etc etc - all wrong but their market segment believe it wholeheartedly because they read this stuff all the time in the magazines and the forums and they don't have any understanding of measurements and so will just dismiss them as irrelevant regardless of what they show. |
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Post by macca on Oct 23, 2022 11:36:54 GMT
I personally have no problem believing that anything mechanical in operation will need a period of time for mating surfaces to 'smooth off' any high spots before they will move freely and so perform optimally. And this might be the case with everything from loudspeakers to car engines, braking systems, locking systems etc. Are these things measurable? I don't know. Yes, drivers will break in - the argument is not that they don't, but that it only takes a very short period of time, not tens of hours or hundreds of hours. Yes, it is all measurable. |
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Oct 23, 2022 11:46:03 GMT
Zu Audio are convinced of the value of 'burn in', and give their drive units a right old work out, much of it at levels that they would never get in a domestic setting. For 600 hours. They do state that a 'settling in' period may also be needed, anything from one to four weeks. And they have a 60 day return policy. I don't know how other loudspeaker manufacturers have a period of factory burn-in, but I might expect that makers of drive units may only test the units, not burn them in. Good point you make about dealers using this excuse to help keep buyers from returning speakers that "don't sound right" though. But why would manufacturers persist with such claims when it can so easily be disproved through measurements? Other manufacturers who play to the gallery. Crossovers are bad, full range drivers are good, low sensitivity is bad, high is good, low power amplifiers sound sweeter than high power amplifiers, everything needs hundreds of hours burn in to sound at its best etc etc - all wrong but their market segment believe it wholeheartedly because they read this stuff all the time in the magazines and the forums and they don't have any understanding of measurements and so will just dismiss them as irrelevant regardless of what they show.  Almost word for word what Zu Audio and their fans will say! I'm so gullible. But then I've always understood anecdote better than measurements. |
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Post by macca on Oct 23, 2022 11:54:44 GMT
Like you I've made good and bad buying decisions over the years, it turned out that my good decisions were purely down to luck.
if I knew then what I know now... but we all learnt from reading what the magazine reviewers said, thinking they were the experts, without realising they were just salesmen in disguise.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 23, 2022 12:06:45 GMT
Always an interesting and emotive subject of debate. Hifi is full of them!
With all these debates (and the power of the Internet) the 'run in is rubbish camp' with find lots of studies and the 'run in makes a difference camp' will find loads of studies to back up their claims. These debates become perpetual.
People who publish 'studies' showing run in makes no difference tend to bias the methods, results and conclusions to suit their beliefs. Manufacturers will obviously skew results to suit their business interests.
I tend to be skeptical about sitting in either camp until I have read some very rigorous and convincing studies/experiments - most aren't.
I will soon be in a position to conduct my own measurements with identical speakers - one run in and one not. I intend to test a selection of people blind and perform my own measurements. I will do the same to compare basic and fancy caps. I shall report back on my personal findings.
All I know from any subjective testing is that my brand new speakers have very little or no bass for a few hours. So much so that I can't hear notes that I know are there.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Oct 23, 2022 12:41:34 GMT
Jason, from seeing the posts of your previous projects, I know you won't rest until something is the best it can be, and look forward to your findings. Will this post earn me a discount?  |
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Post by macca on Oct 23, 2022 13:00:40 GMT
Always an interesting and emotive subject of debate. Hifi is full of them! With all these debates (and the power of the Internet) the 'run in is rubbish camp' with find lots of studies and the 'run in makes a difference camp' will find loads of studies to back up their claims. These debates become perpetual. People who publish 'studies' showing run in makes no difference tend to bias the methods, results and conclusions to suit their beliefs. Manufacturers will obviously skew results to suit their business interests. I tend to be skeptical about sitting in either camp until I have read some very rigorous and convincing studies/experiments - most aren't. I will soon be in a position to conduct my own measurements with identical speakers - one run in and one not. I intend to test a selection of people blind and perform my own measurements. I will do the same to compare basic and fancy caps. I shall report back on my personal findings. All I know from any subjective testing is that my brand new speakers have very little or no bass for a few hours. So much so that I can't hear notes that I know are there. A blind test would be interesting - but very difficult to do with strict enough protocols. I have been unable to find any tests whatsoever that show that break in of more than a couple of minutes makes the slightest difference, can you point us to them? This is the measurements waffle section after all. I've so far linked to two studies showing it's all over in minutes, can we see some testing supporting the opposite point of view? Nothing emotive from my side, just show me evidence and I can assess it. Only interested in reality, not opinion or 'I heard it so it's true'. I used to believe that hundreds of hours of break in was real and not just for speakers, and that I'd heard it happen. But when you go a bit deeper into the rabbit hole... |
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Post by jandl100 on Oct 23, 2022 13:01:20 GMT
.... if I knew then what I think I know now.... ... There you go, I fixed that for you, Martin.  |
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Post by jandl100 on Oct 23, 2022 13:03:38 GMT
No one can convince me that my MBLs, which were straight from the factory, didn't take at least a couple of weeks to run in.
As per Jason, the bass was just crap to start with. Many other changes as well.
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Post by macca on Oct 23, 2022 13:07:07 GMT
No one can convince me that my MBLs, which were straight from the factory, didn't take at least a couple of weeks to run in. As per Jason, the bass was just crap to start with. Many other changes as well. minutes or even a couple of hours I can be on board with - weeks seems to be a bit of a stretch. Do they use conventional bass drivers? |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 23, 2022 13:48:27 GMT
Always an interesting and emotive subject of debate. Hifi is full of them! With all these debates (and the power of the Internet) the 'run in is rubbish camp' with find lots of studies and the 'run in makes a difference camp' will find loads of studies to back up their claims. These debates become perpetual. People who publish 'studies' showing run in makes no difference tend to bias the methods, results and conclusions to suit their beliefs. Manufacturers will obviously skew results to suit their business interests. I tend to be skeptical about sitting in either camp until I have read some very rigorous and convincing studies/experiments - most aren't. I will soon be in a position to conduct my own measurements with identical speakers - one run in and one not. I intend to test a selection of people blind and perform my own measurements. I will do the same to compare basic and fancy caps. I shall report back on my personal findings. All I know from any subjective testing is that my brand new speakers have very little or no bass for a few hours. So much so that I can't hear notes that I know are there. A blind test would be interesting - but very difficult to do with strict enough protocols. I have been unable to find any tests whatsoever that show that break in of more than a couple of minutes makes the slightest difference, can you point us to them? This is the measurements waffle section after all. I've so far linked to two studies showing it's all over in minutes, can we see some testing supporting the opposite point of view? Nothing emotive from my side, just show me evidence and I can assess it. Only interested in reality, not opinion or 'I heard it so it's true'. I used to believe that hundreds of hours of break in was real and not just for speakers, and that I'd heard it happen. But when you go a bit deeper into the rabbit hole... Have you got any links to any credible studies from a neutral standpoint... Most studies are done by people who have a vested interest in the result - they skew the results to suit their beliefs. It makes for an interesting discussion, but you'll never actually resolve any truth of real facts. The ASR study is a complete farce. Sorry to say it like it is, but it is utter rubbish. The guy compared a broken in £23k speaker with a relatively new £750 speaker. He said they sounded the same and the tiny standmount (not broken in) had less output and less bass. I don't see that needs much further discrediting. It's like me building a top of the range Troels speakers and then running it in for a few hundred hours and doing a test against a non broken in Troels entry level standmount. What does it prove... Nothing. Like I said, I need to perform my own tests and measurements before I can form a robust opinion. |
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Post by Arke on Oct 23, 2022 14:36:22 GMT
macca it is hard to find any rigorous and creditible experimental evidence regarding break in on the Internet - nothing that I would class as credible in either camp. I know Troels did some driver Fs testing before and after break in, so shall try to find that. He struggled to get a driver's Fs to measure to manufacturers spec. It later turned out the manufacturers subject their drivers to extremely serious workouts to achieve their very low Fs specs. A change in a driver Fs will effect it's sound and performance, that is basic loudspeaker design. You only need to plug Fs values in to a simple loudspeaker design program to see that a change in Fs radically changes a driver's LF performance. When I built my sub I did some personal testing on it's brand new frequency response. I couldn't hear 20Hz and could barely hear 30Hz. After a day of playing LOUD and bassy music 20Hz was easily audible and 30Hz was very loud. Next time I have a new sub I shall measure the change (with a calibrated mic) over break in time. I would like to conduct some response time experiments too. IF it is true that the Spider is stiff to start and then loosens up, then the ability of the driver to stop and start will change. This may not change the output vs frequency, but it should change a driver's transient response. I shall provide more feedback when I have some decent measurements
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Post by macca on Oct 23, 2022 15:04:35 GMT
macca it is hard to find any rigorous and creditible experimental evidence regarding break in on the Internet - nothing that I would class as credible in either camp. I know Troels did some driver Fs testing before and after break in, so shall try to find that. He struggled to get a driver's Fs to measure to manufacturers spec. It later turned out the manufacturers subject their drivers to extremely serious workouts to achieve their very low Fs specs. A change in a driver Fs will effect it's sound and performance, that is basic loudspeaker design. You only need to plug Fs values in to a simple loudspeaker design program to see that a change in Fs radically changes a driver's LF performance. When I built my sub I did some personal testing on it's brand new frequency response. I couldn't hear 20Hz and could barely hear 30Hz. After a day of playing LOUD and bassy music 20Hz was easily audible and 30Hz was very loud. Next time I have a new sub I shall measure the change (with a calibrated mic) over break in time. I would like to conduct some response time experiments too. IF it is true that the Spider is stiff to start and then loosens up, then the ability of the driver to stop and start will change. This may not change the output vs frequency, but it should change a driver's transient response. I shall provide more feedback when I have some decent measurements I think you misread the ASR test, it was the same speaker measured when new and then measured again after an hour and a half of use - well, testing on the Klippel anyway. I agree this is not conclusive, it's just a single data point. I disagree that there was any bias involved. whilst I can see why a speaker manufacturer or dealer would be keen to convince customers that they need to put hundreds of hours on a speaker before it sounds right, I can't see what is to be gained by suggesting that in fact it's a very brief process? As you say there does not appear to be any testing - at least that's available on the internet - showing changes in drive units happening for an extended length of time. You'd think speaker manufacturers who claim this happens would publish something, but they don't. Anyway, I'm looking forward to your testing and the results. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 23, 2022 15:15:02 GMT
macca it is hard to find any rigorous and creditible experimental evidence regarding break in on the Internet - nothing that I would class as credible in either camp. I know Troels did some driver Fs testing before and after break in, so shall try to find that. He struggled to get a driver's Fs to measure to manufacturers spec. It later turned out the manufacturers subject their drivers to extremely serious workouts to achieve their very low Fs specs. A change in a driver Fs will effect it's sound and performance, that is basic loudspeaker design. You only need to plug Fs values in to a simple loudspeaker design program to see that a change in Fs radically changes a driver's LF performance. When I built my sub I did some personal testing on it's brand new frequency response. I couldn't hear 20Hz and could barely hear 30Hz. After a day of playing LOUD and bassy music 20Hz was easily audible and 30Hz was very loud. Next time I have a new sub I shall measure the change (with a calibrated mic) over break in time. I would like to conduct some response time experiments too. IF it is true that the Spider is stiff to start and then loosens up, then the ability of the driver to stop and start will change. This may not change the output vs frequency, but it should change a driver's transient response. I shall provide more feedback when I have some decent measurements I think you misread the ASR test, it was the same speaker measured when new and then measured again after an hour and a half of use - well, testing on the Klippel anyway. I agree this is not conclusive, it's just a single data point. I disagree that there was any bias involved. whilst I can see why a speaker manufacturer or dealer would be keen to convince customers that they need to put hundreds of hours on a speaker before it sounds right, I can't see what is to be gained by suggesting that in fact it's a very brief process? As you say there does not appear to be any testing - at least that's available on the internet - showing changes in drive units happening for an extended length of time. You'd think speaker manufacturers who claim this happens would publish something, but they don't. Anyway, I'm looking forward to your testing and the results. I think I read it correctly. I was referring to the subjective testing. The objective testing was the difference after 1.5hrs measuring 1000 data points. Each measurement would've been a few seconds, and only a handful of measurements in the LF region. It wasn't a test of before and after a proper break in. It was a test before and after a few minutes of tones in the LF. The other tones in the 1000 points would've been midrange and treble and not added to break in of the woofer spider. |
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Post by antonio on Oct 23, 2022 17:08:22 GMT
I can certainly understand your view point macca, but like all things in hifi there is no right or wrong. Some speakers may well take a 100hrs to fully run in (no, I can't believe 500hrs is needed) Some good manufacturers may well put a good few hours on them before they are released for sale, whereas a mass produced, under £1k, may be sold straight of the production line. I've recently purchased a new REL sub, it has certainly improved, taken more time since I do not play my music loud. Also my Tuolihoa's sounded a touch 'hard' when first played, they certainly seemed to soften up after 30hrs. Is this my 'mind/ears' playing tricks on me, I've no measurements to prove my assessments?
Do you think amplifiers can improve with a few hours on them from new?
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Post by macca on Oct 23, 2022 17:37:07 GMT
I can certainly understand your view point macca, but like all things in hifi there is no right or wrong. Some speakers may well take a 100hrs to fully run in (no, I can't believe 500hrs is needed) Some good manufacturers may well put a good few hours on them before they are released for sale, whereas a mass produced, under £1k, may be sold straight of the production line. I've recently purchased a new REL sub, it has certainly improved, taken more time since I do not play my music loud. Also my Tuolihoa's sounded a touch 'hard' when first played, they certainly seemed to soften up after 30hrs. Is this my 'mind/ears' playing tricks on me, I've no measurements to prove my assessments? Do you think amplifiers can improve with a few hours on them from new? I can see that with a subwoofer driver where you are hardly using any excursion could take a while to fully loosen. But you could have just blasted it loud with some deep bass for ten minutes and got there a lot sooner? Not heard an amp improve from new but I think some amps do take a bit of time to 'warm up'. Valve amps especially. That may well be totally psychological of course - although the measured performance of some amps does improve after a couple of minutes from switch on the change isn't necessarily audible. The thing is we don't actively listen for these things. My first thought when I get new equipment is not to make notes how it sounds now with some specific music and then check back periodically comparing my notes to see if there is any change due to burn in. I mean no-one does that. If I get a new amp in then I'm usually concentrating on whether it is better or worse than its predecessor.. But when the subject of burn in comes up we think back at some general impression and go 'oh yeah it seemed it got better as time went on.' We might well be wrong about that. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Oct 23, 2022 17:43:33 GMT
I can certainly understand your view point macca, but like all things in hifi there is no right or wrong. Some speakers may well take a 100hrs to fully run in (no, I can't believe 500hrs is needed) Some good manufacturers may well put a good few hours on them before they are released for sale, whereas a mass produced, under £1k, may be sold straight of the production line. I've recently purchased a new REL sub, it has certainly improved, taken more time since I do not play my music loud. Also my Tuolihoa's sounded a touch 'hard' when first played, they certainly seemed to soften up after 30hrs. Is this my 'mind/ears' playing tricks on me, I've no measurements to prove my assessments? Do you think amplifiers can improve with a few hours on them from new? I agree completely regarding subs, and run in is generally more important on larger drivers. My sub changed A LOT over a week - it took a few days of loud playing before it would even play 30Hz notes on tracks. I know the tracks very well and the notes were missing on the Sub and clearly there with just the Ektas. I have spoken to Troels about this before and it is true that a driver will generally break in over a few hours, BUT, that is with a high amplitude and continuous tone being played - say 40Hz. Most drivers manufacturers say 50-100hrs as most people don't play 40Hz at 95db for 2 hours. It is very subjective and I am sure I hear speakers change over a week or two. I will soon be in the position to compare and measure speakers before and after break in. |
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Post by macca on Oct 23, 2022 17:50:19 GMT
I think you misread the ASR test, it was the same speaker measured when new and then measured again after an hour and a half of use - well, testing on the Klippel anyway. I agree this is not conclusive, it's just a single data point. I disagree that there was any bias involved. whilst I can see why a speaker manufacturer or dealer would be keen to convince customers that they need to put hundreds of hours on a speaker before it sounds right, I can't see what is to be gained by suggesting that in fact it's a very brief process? As you say there does not appear to be any testing - at least that's available on the internet - showing changes in drive units happening for an extended length of time. You'd think speaker manufacturers who claim this happens would publish something, but they don't. Anyway, I'm looking forward to your testing and the results. I think I read it correctly. I was referring to the subjective testing. The objective testing was the difference after 1.5hrs measuring 1000 data points. Each measurement would've been a few seconds, and only a handful of measurements in the LF region. It wasn't a test of before and after a proper break in. It was a test before and after a few minutes of tones in the LF. The other tones in the 1000 points would've been midrange and treble and not added to break in of the woofer spider. I was only referring to the measurements he did - anyone can do the subjective bit. But yes you have a fair point about not all the test tones exerting the bass driver. The other link I gave in the op - that bloke does more tests, on different drivers, and one when brand new and then again after 4 years of use. |
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Post by Arke on Oct 23, 2022 18:05:14 GMT
I think I read it correctly. I was referring to the subjective testing. The objective testing was the difference after 1.5hrs measuring 1000 data points. Each measurement would've been a few seconds, and only a handful of measurements in the LF region. It wasn't a test of before and after a proper break in. It was a test before and after a few minutes of tones in the LF. The other tones in the 1000 points would've been midrange and treble and not added to break in of the woofer spider. I was only referring to the measurements he did - anyone can do the subjective bit. But yes you have a fair point about not all the test tones exerting the bass driver. The other link I gave in the op - that bloke does more tests, on different drivers, and one when brand new and then again after 4 years of use. Yeah, the ASR 'study' is definitely very dubious - I come from a science and engineering background as his test methods would be flagged up in primary school level science classes. The objective test ran two sets of measurements with no 'break in period' in between, so it didn't show anything. Why would anyone try to disprove/prove the affect of break-in and run two tests close together with no break-in in between - it amused me more than anything. The subjective test was two vastly (a 30x price difference) different speakers - again rather amusing. I shall read your other linked study, it did look more rigorous so should be much more interesting. |
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Post by Arke on Oct 23, 2022 19:04:41 GMT
macca the other article is much more interesting but doesn't answer many questions for me. Anecdotal and observations section: He cites a few anecdotal cases and then says: 'In hindsight, its clear the 2226s had been sufficiently broken in long before I took possession of them and it's doubtful any amount of burn in would have materially effected the 2447s, which sport titanium diaphragms.' And at the end of that section he says:'Following initial burn in, suspension compliance [probably a lot of spider compliance too - Arke] would show the usual expected shift, then eventually drift back to and settle at a value something on the order of ~5% to 10% greater than than that measured pre-burn in. In this case, taking the time to burn in drivers was necessary.' In the measurements section (at the start) the graphics show some test results, however, I can not see what the drivers were (exactly) or what constituted 'break-in'. The drivers in graphic 7 are mid range drivers, it would be interesting to see the break in effect on a woofer or subwoofer. I have noticed little (subjective) change with midrange drivers. In addition, it talks about the rubber surround supsension compliance having little effect. I understood that the break in has minimal effect on the suspension. It predominately changes the stiffness and compliance of the spider. Anyway, I shall endeavour to do some more thorough and rigorous tests when I have the means and opportunity. I am genuinely very interested and would like to know the truth - it would be useful for me to understand if break-in is required, and if so, how much. I'll soon have some brand new Arke Duos, so can compare directly with some that have had over 100hrs use. A subwoofer comparison and measurements would be very interesting too.
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Post by antonio on Oct 23, 2022 19:12:28 GMT
macca I remember watching a video made by a YouTube reviewer, he mainly reviewed speakers and dac's, but he felt it was time to upgrade his amplifier. He did buy a new amp and recorded the sound when new, after x hrs, then xx hrs and finally xxx hrs. You could certainly hear a difference, I don't believe he was trying to convince anyone for some $$$, just for his own curiosity.
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 23, 2022 21:21:08 GMT
The zu's are an edge case, heavy paper cone, massive double spiders and very heavy doped coth surrounds. You'd expect them to take an age. Same with the, PHY drivers, those crazy leather surround full range drivers and most large double coil sub drivers.
Most mass manufactured mid range and tweeters, nah.
If it was real the manufacturers would show you how much they care with before and after measurements. It doesn't, they don't.
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Post by macca on Oct 24, 2022 17:28:39 GMT
macca I remember watching a video made by a YouTube reviewer, he mainly reviewed speakers and dac's, but he felt it was time to upgrade his amplifier. He did buy a new amp and recorded the sound when new, after x hrs, then xx hrs and finally xxx hrs. You could certainly hear a difference, I don't believe he was trying to convince anyone for some $$$, just for his own curiosity. well it's o/t but I suspect he made a mistake. Possibly did not record at the same level the second time, or something like that. Measurements or a proper blind test are the only ways to determine the truth with this sort of claim. Casual listening is no use at all. |
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Post by antonio on Oct 24, 2022 17:38:04 GMT
macca He certainly did not seem the sort to make the schoolboy error you suggest.
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Post by macca on Oct 25, 2022 17:28:32 GMT
macca He certainly did not seem the sort to make the schoolboy error you suggest. well if you can find it again we can take a look at exactly what he did. If you think about what would have to happen to the components of an amplifier to change its output so significantly that it was not just audibly different but obviously audibly different, then things would have to be happening that are totally unknown. And currently unmeasurable. That's so massively unlikely that I think it's wise to be very sceptical until it is demonstrated to be true beyond reasonable doubt. |
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Post by antonio on Oct 26, 2022 8:55:59 GMT
Here you go macca He makes a recording when new and after 50hrs, my mistake saying he did 3 recordings, I think this is the correct vid and I know it was this reviewer that I was thinking about. You can check out some of his speaker/dac reviews if you doubt his competence. |
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Post by macca on Oct 26, 2022 17:45:02 GMT
he doesn't mention any test parameters or anything, he doesn't seem to understand how a volume control works, and he thinks he needs to burn it in for 500 hours?
I don't see much evidence here either way.
Have to say it sounds the same to me after the 50 hours but I've only got the laptop speakers to listen through.
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Almost word for word what Zu Audio and their fans will say! I'm so gullible. But then I've always understood anecdote better than measurements.
