Arke
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Post by Arke on Sept 23, 2022 17:00:25 GMT
Okay I'm a moron (no surprises there) Took these measurements from a draft drawing of my house I had on file. What I didn't take into account was wall cavities and a membrane at the rear of the room so it is in fact more like 13ft X 18ft which gives me a lot less space to work with.... Does explain why I have some acoustic issues and also has me slightly questioning if more "big" speakers are sensible even though they have full LF control.... Idiot 😬 I work better in metres... 5.5m x 3.96m is still a pretty substantial room. I assume that is plus alcove too? And the 4m (13ft) is the width? Therefore the 4m wide wall behind the speakers? EDIT: my new room will be 3.5m wide and 6.8m long so about 24m^2. Your room is 22m^2 (plus alcove?) |
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Post by lurch on Sept 23, 2022 17:09:31 GMT
Somewhere I read that the ideal dims for a musicroom were 13'x8'x5' (l,w,h) or multiples thereof. With the above dims your multiples ratio is 1.385 x 1.625 no idea of height. Not too far out but getting the width down to circa 1.4 would mean reducing it by about 2 foot.
Whether it would help matters I've no idea
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Post by macca on Sept 23, 2022 17:27:07 GMT
The problem is low frequencies, as I understand it. Doors and partitions mean nothing to low frequencies, they go right through.
I am also wondering if that alcove is the problem. Have you tried piling lots of dense absorbent material (bales of loft insulation for example) in there?
Maybe if you stacked it full it would stop the suck out? Okay that would mean you can no longer use it for storage but I'm guessing you could work around that.
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 23, 2022 18:00:26 GMT
Thanks chaps,
Lots of helpful suggestions there actually.
Stuffing the alcove is something to try.... Not sure how I'll report that one but better to do it and face the consequences rather than ask and be told in no uncertain terms it's a no.... 😂
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Post by lurch on Sept 23, 2022 19:48:20 GMT
Thanks chaps, Lots of helpful suggestions there actually. Stuffing the alcove is something to try.... Not sure how I'll report that one but better to do it and face the consequences rather than ask and be told in no uncertain terms it's a no.... 😂 A halfway house to stuffing the alcove is to get a couple of those basic Tesco single Duvets and turn them into curtains. Have them either on their own or behind the sliding doors your thinking of putting across the gap. An air gap of a few inches between the doors and 'Duvet curtains' will help with their effectiveness + they can be pulled aside for when the alcove is used as an office area. |
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Post by jandl100 on Sept 24, 2022 3:34:18 GMT
I'm getting a bit confused as to why you think a 13x18 foot room is bad or difficult - it sounds a very decent size to me - I think I'd probably rather have that than my room (11'6"x23') - although I am even more confused atm as to how the extra alcove bit fits in with the dimensions. I do note your comments about a bass suckout where you have your listening chair, I get a naughty but nice bass peak around 50hz  . Maybe your listening position is just unfortunate. As someone else suggested, can't you find a way to swivel things around? |
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 24, 2022 6:47:17 GMT
I'm getting a bit confused as to why you think a 13x18 foot room is bad or difficult - it sounds a very decent size to me - I think I'd probably rather have that than my room (11'6"x23') - although I am even more confused atm as to how the extra alcove bit fits in with the dimensions. I do note your comments about a bass suckout where you have your listening chair, I get a naughty but nice bass peak around 50hz . Maybe your listening position is just unfortunate. As someone else suggested, can't you find a way to swivel things around? It's not the size Jerry, it's the acoustic properties of the shapes within. The door entrance part puts a reflective wall right next to the listening position and adds a corner that's not the same distance from the speakers as the other rear corner. The bass builds up a lot on that corner and gets reflected right back at the speakers. The alcove cancels out some bass on the other side too and slightly unbalances the image, then there's the sloping roof only on one side that adds to some issues. If it was just 4 walls I'm sure it would be ideal, but it ain't.... To be honest it's not awful, I get a nice sound in there, but it's just not perfect, I want it to be perfect.... |
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Post by antonio on Sept 24, 2022 7:09:14 GMT
I'm getting a bit confused as to why you think a 13x18 foot room is bad or difficult - it sounds a very decent size to me - I think I'd probably rather have that than my room (11'6"x23') - although I am even more confused atm as to how the extra alcove bit fits in with the dimensions. I do note your comments about a bass suckout where you have your listening chair, I get a naughty but nice bass peak around 50hz . Maybe your listening position is just unfortunate. As someone else suggested, can't you find a way to swivel things around? It's not the size Jerry, it's how you use it. The door entrance part puts a reflective wall right next to the listening position and adds a corner that's not the same distance from the speakers as the other rear corner. The bass builds up a lot on that corner and gets reflected right back at the speakers. The alcove cancels out some bass on the other side too and slightly unbalances the image, then there's the sloping roof only on one side that adds to some issues. If it was just 4 walls I'm sure it would be ideal, but it ain't.... To be honest it's not awful, I get a nice sound in there, but it's just not perfect, I want it to be perfect.... Wasn't going to correct you Chris, but oops I have done. |
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Post by macca on Sept 24, 2022 7:51:29 GMT
I'm getting a bit confused as to why you think a 13x18 foot room is bad or difficult - it sounds a very decent size to me - I think I'd probably rather have that than my room (11'6"x23') - although I am even more confused atm as to how the extra alcove bit fits in with the dimensions. I do note your comments about a bass suckout where you have your listening chair, I get a naughty but nice bass peak around 50hz . Maybe your listening position is just unfortunate. As someone else suggested, can't you find a way to swivel things around? It's not the size Jerry, it's the acoustic properties of the shapes within. The door entrance part puts a reflective wall right next to the listening position and adds a corner that's not the same distance from the speakers as the other rear corner. The bass builds up a lot on that corner and gets reflected right back at the speakers. The alcove cancels out some bass on the other side too and slightly unbalances the image, then there's the sloping roof only on one side that adds to some issues. If it was just 4 walls I'm sure it would be ideal, but it ain't.... To be honest it's not awful, I get a nice sound in there, but it's just not perfect, I want it to be perfect.... I've had about a dozen rooms over the years of every shape, size and construction and none were perfect. I think the only way to get perfect is to build it from scratch. Maybe with an unlimited budget you could buy a house with a perfect room but I doubt even that. I'd invest a couple of hundred on rolls of this www.diy.com/departments/knauf-eko-roll-loft-insulation-roll-l-7-28m-w-1-14m-t-100mm/182146_BQ.prd? Keep them in the packing and stack them floor to ceiling in that alcove. Maybe it won't work but it is relatively cheap to try and if it doesn't work then you can never have enough insulation in your loft. |
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Post by jandl100 on Sept 24, 2022 8:09:14 GMT
Hmm, right, yup, OK.
Asymmetric sloping ceiling as well?
You're really not trying to help yourself here!
I can recommend some really good headphones to try.
Only kidding. Kind of.
With the sort of asymmetries and issues you're dealing with, it seems to me that getting more near field would help. Smaller standmount monitors closer up, with scientifically placed subs (2 or more probably) to sort the bass out at the listening position.
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Post by macca on Sept 24, 2022 8:32:35 GMT
Headphones suck. Let's just get that out of the way right now.
I had an attic room once with the sloping ceiling, I used some little Mission speakers in there and that worked okay. Speakers were backed on to the sloping bit.
I had a sub but I didn't use it since the neighbour was a scary bloke. He had a Boxer dog and he looked just like it. It was a shared house and he would often come round to complain about the noise made by the other residents. They would hide and I would have to answer the door to him. I also had to do all the washing up. This is why I now live alone.
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Post by jandl100 on Sept 24, 2022 8:41:44 GMT
Actually, some folks really like headphones. It's a personal thing. You can't (or shouldn't) generalise your own preferences to apply to everyone.
Also, it's an asymmetric sloping ceiling apparently. I've no idea what effect that would have, and I'd be surprised if commercially available modelling software can cope with that.
I think someone who knows what they are doing has got to get into the room with measuring gear.
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Post by macca on Sept 24, 2022 9:47:42 GMT
Actually, some folks really like headphones. It's a personal thing. You can't (or shouldn't) generalise your own preferences to apply to everyone. Also, it's an asymmetric sloping ceiling apparently. I've no idea what effect that would have, and I'd be surprised if commercially available modelling software can cope with that. I think someone who knows what they are doing has got to get into the room with measuring gear. Yeah and some blokes like to shuffle round Lidl in their flip flops but it doesn't make it right  I don't think the sloping ceiling will have any effect on bass response and that seems to be what the problem is. Getting in an acoustician would be ideal but I bet it will cost a couple of grand and there's no guarantee that it is fixable even by an expert. If it was a boom that could be fixed pretty easy but with a suck-out EQ is not good at boosting nulls. My suggestion is cheap and if it fails to work then the insulation can be deployed elsewhere. Or sold as new. |
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 24, 2022 12:50:33 GMT
The problems in the room are two fold.
Firstly the bass does not reach the listening position evenly, it's down at certain frequencies, 50-100Hz is the most affected range but there are other problems lower and higher.
These are caused by the frequencies clashing at that part of the room, it's a "dead zone". Absorbing these frequencies with large amounts of treatment in the corners is a double edged sword. Yes the frequencies can then reach the listening spot and sound a lot better, but the amount if treatment starts to affect the other frequencies and the mids and tops can lose their texture and sparkle.
The other problem is caused by the alcove which skews the central image and balance, the sloped ceiling also really doesn't help with this but I don't think it's as bigger problem as the other issues.
Stuffing/filling the alcove again softens the midrange and HF as it's not the same as what is on the adjacent side (just a plain wall).
It's a losing battle because in starting so far away from the ideal. With some treatment and some physical relocation of speakers/furnishings things are better but it's still not as good as I've had it in a smaller (but more symmetrical room).
I will still say it sounds good, very good most of the time but as I've mentioned I'm not happy to settle for good, especially as I've had better in my smaller room.
EQ does solve some of the issues but it doesn't sound natural, I actually prefer the sound with all the above issues and no EQ.... I think....
I agree it's unrealistic to strive for "perfect" that's not really obtainable unless starting from scratch as mentioned, but I want to get closer to it, and I think that is possible....
Just need to work out exactly how to go about it. Structural changes may be the best (and possibly only) way forward. I would get an acoustic engineer in but my feelings are that it has too many issues currently to really do much about. Short of spending big bucks on proper diffusers etc, money that could actually be spent improving the design and structure of the room from a design perspective.
I've got some more ideas and a few things to think about but I appreciate the input and suggestions.
Thanks fellas
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Post by macca on Sept 24, 2022 13:22:37 GMT
stuffing the alcove as I suggested and then putting a diffusor in front of it, and another on the opposite wall?
You could try posting your problem on ASR, you might get some free advice from people who really know about this stuff.
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Post by jandl100 on Sept 24, 2022 15:53:22 GMT
You could try posting your problem on ASR, you might get some free advice from people who really know about this stuff. Be careful not to mention "sound quality", just call it deviations from perfect measurements.  |
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 25, 2022 15:56:57 GMT
Quick update:
Tried a few different things today.
Reshuffle of acoustic treatment led to only marginal sonic benefit, although I've certainly improved the bass response which is now smoother at the listening position and slightly more extended it would seem, so some progress there.
I was actually going to take the Logan's out if the equation and fire up the Heco New Statements. A couple of reasons here, firstly to see if it would address the slight imbalance from the panels of my Logan's. Secondly to see one last time if I could actually live without stats with the potential move back to conventional driver speakers on the horizon, I thought it would be a good idea to get re-acclimatised to their presentation over stat panels....
Because you have to remove the panels to move the speakers properly I thought I'd swap them around just to see what would happen. I've done this a few times, the last being when I recapped them a few months ago and I've never really noticed a difference, although I've never critically listened to them afterwards and it's possible this was this first time I "mixed" the panels up.
Well it would appear the panels are matched to the driver units, or at least they seem to work a lot better with their designated partner.
The balance was pretty much back, it wasn't a subtle difference.
I also decided to try moving the speakers a bit further out into the room. They are previously about 1.1m from the rear wall, I sat them at approximately 1.4m. Effectively making them a little more near field positioning to the listening area (as Jerry suggested).
The result is much better bass response at the listening position, they also sound a lot better off axis and around the room with a lot less bass build up in the corners.
So a large overall improvement and looks like the room is not quite as bad as first feared. The shape and alcove still present some problems but it's so much better.
Yes so the speakers admittedly completely dominate the room, but at 5'9 tall and 65kg each, they weren't exactly blending in with the decor before.... Also with the room treatment etc there's no mistaking this for anything other than a dedicated listening space, so that's of little concern.
A bit more listening required to see if my changes are quite as transformative as I'm hoping, as after hours if tweaking and testing you can lose some perspective and reference but by the end I was just sitting there grinning really .... Always a good sign.
Some positive news and thanks for all the suggestions. I'll probably still try and do something about the alcove and the entrance because there's no way they're not having a detrimental effect. But at least I'm starting from an acoustically better place now.
Looks like the room is not quite as much to blame as first feared....
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Post by antonio on Sept 25, 2022 16:26:59 GMT
Great news Chris, I know you like your panels so would be good if you didn't have to change them.
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