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Post by optical on Sept 22, 2022 10:04:55 GMT
Leftfield speaker suggestions.
Let me qualify what I mean and the reasons I'm asking.
Disclaimer:
I'm at peace with the revelation that I don't listen to the same music or indeed in the same way as most hifi enthusiasts, believe me it's not a problem for me. 😂
The performance of my current speakers (Martin Logan Prodigy's) is acceptable, often more than acceptable. By acceptable I mean they are actually good on nearly everything. They sound dynamic, live, immersive etc, with low end 'heft' that would rival most systems I suspect. The majority of my listening consists of ambient soundscapes with deep rolling bass underpinning the soundstage as well as synths and other mid-hf sounds coming from all areas of the soundstage. They do not really 'bloat' the image or make it unnatural (like a lot of big panel speakers can) but when the recording calls for it they can extend the soundstage a good meter or more either side of the actual speakers/room dimensions. The same goes for above the speakers too, they really do sound even bigger than they are, actually like nothing else I've ever experienced.
Obviously this has to be one of the big plus points of cramming large panel speakers into a small-ish room so this approach is not without its caveats of course.
It is however the lesser of a few evils given the problems the room presents.
The main problem is a large suck-out around the listening area. This is of varying db around 40-100Hz so a really annoying frequency to be missing a chunk of given my listening preferences. To combat this, I do run dual subs which brings the levels back up around the listening area but does have a tendency to overload other areas of the room which does effect the rest of the frequency range somewhat, creating additional modes and cancelling waves. It's not awful but does introduce problems regarding pressure levels (not outright volume) where you feel the impact of notes but don't necessarily hear them clearly, things can get a bit jumbled in the low frequencies.
Unfortunately, I can't relocate the speakers or listening position very much and I'm fairly maxed out on room treatment without spending a considerable amount more.
Additionally, the speakers do have a slight imbalance caused by the room dimensions and one panel being a tiny bit down on output but with careful placement I can all but negate this. On some bits of music I can hear a slight shift in image but it's not enough to really distract.
The cost and difficulty of replacing the panels really is prohibitive at the moment so I'm looking into other options.......
Which brings me to my dilemma . . .
One thing I have established is that conventional cone driver'd speakers don't seem to work very well in this space. They get lost due to the suck out issue and have to be really cranked for any real low-end atmosphere to be translated through. Resulting in them being quite bright and forward. I've tried them on the back wall, in the middle of the room, all the room treatment, none of the room treatment etc etc.
They can be made to sound okay but I'm not looking for okay. The only great sound that can be achieved in this space seems to come from panel/electrostatic speakers (My Quad 63's sounded pretty good also).
So why electrostatic speakers?
Well, firstly they are a dipole design, this seems to integrate a lot better within the space. It seems absorbing just the right amount of energy in the corners and off the back wall has a profoundly positive effect.
Secondly, they are not as affected by side wall proximity with the sound radiating in a figure 8 pattern rather than beaming out of a driver and straight onto the sidewalls. This 100% adds to imaging accuracy or at least means the reflections from sidewalls and the room in general are less destructive, preserving the timing and improving the soundstage.
Lastly, they are free from cabinet resonances, all conventional 'driver' speakers I have heard do not do the same transparency and 'hear through' soundstage. They're okay, but that's it. Like I say, the ones I've heard anyway.
I think the hybrid design of the Martin Logan's are about spot on. Indeed conventional drivers certainly have more drive/heft/clout/authority than most electrostats but having a large cabinet with two drivers taking care of duties 250Hz and below with a big panel for everything else just makes perfect sense to me. I guess they just mate better with my ears.
The trade-offs being a slight lack of integration in some setups (audible separation of drivers and panel) is something I know a lot of people couldn't forgive, and I totally get that. Maybe if my musical tastes were a little more mainstream, I'd be further in that camp.
Although with the subs appropriately setup and integrated I do feel the audible gap between the drivers and the panels is more seamless.
Anyway,
I'm thinking about other designs that could work within the criteria of my room and listening preferences. I wouldn't rule anything out, even a pair of small bookshelf speakers properly setup could well give the sound I'm after. Just because I just haven't heard much evidence that it will, doesn't mean it couldn't.
How would the following designs fair in my listening space I wonder:
Open baffle, Emerald Physics, German Physics, Spatial Audio, Tekton
Omni's, Duevel, Decware, Ohm Walsh
Other, Neat, Shahinian
Due to their different dispersion patterns I wonder if they would be more appropriate for my listening environment.
Some of the designs (especially the omni's) get a bit scoffed at due to their lack of 'audiophile' box ticking but I think my room is actually so acoustically problematic that just having something that plays music really nicely is becoming more of a priority. Of course I still want good imaging and dynamics etc and bass response and impact is still a major one for me, but searching for the correct speaker for this room is beginning to take it's toll on the enjoyment of the hobby in general I've noticed . . . and I don't really want that to continue.
I wouldn't mind getting a few home demo's of these different types of speakers and giving them a try, I think that's the way to go. I'm in no way shy of parting with money for the right product but my slightly scatter-gun approach for hifi is unlikely to yield the right results with speakers and could prove costly.
Unfortunately, I can't change the room dimensions or location just at the moment, otherwise I would.
Help and advice appreciated as always.
Cheers
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Post by misterc on Sept 22, 2022 10:13:59 GMT
Open baffle in your space not much hope, the GP are quite integuing they may work.
Absolutely home demo for you Chris is an 300% must no question
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 22, 2022 10:34:48 GMT
I think you'd actually benefit from getting an acoustician onboard and getting some science involved.
Room and room orientation can't change, so you really need to know what is happening in there, and then maybe you can work with it, rather than against it.
The Eureka moment came with those rockwool panels. You told me, Jason told me ...but I wish I'd listened earlier.
I'd spend £250 on getting the room issues mapped out and then whatever it takes after. It has to be cheaper than keep forking out in speakers and them not working.
Tony will know of someone in your area. I wouldn't buy any more speakers until you've sorted that out.
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 22, 2022 10:42:27 GMT
I think you'd actually benefit from getting an acoustician onboard and getting some science involved. Room and room orientation can't change, so you really need to know what is happening in there, and then maybe you can work with it, rather than against it. The Eureka moment came with those rockwool panels. You told me, Jason told me ...but I wish I'd listened earlier. I'd spend £250 on getting the room issues mapped out and then whatever it takes after. It has to be cheaper than keep forking out in speakers and them not working. Tony will know of someone in your area. I wouldn't buy any more speakers until you've sorted that out. Yeah, that's not a bad shout at all. To be fair even if it does cost a bit in 'proper' treatment and fee to measure etc, if that does perhaps enable me to use more 'convnetional' speakers with better results, that would be an invaluable upgrade. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 22, 2022 10:46:48 GMT
I think you'd actually benefit from getting an acoustician onboard and getting some science involved. Room and room orientation can't change, so you really need to know what is happening in there, and then maybe you can work with it, rather than against it. The Eureka moment came with those rockwool panels. You told me, Jason told me ...but I wish I'd listened earlier. I'd spend £250 on getting the room issues mapped out and then whatever it takes after. It has to be cheaper than keep forking out in speakers and them not working. Tony will know of someone in your area. I wouldn't buy any more speakers until you've sorted that out. Yeah, that's not a bad shout at all. To be fair even if it does cost a bit in 'proper' treatment and fee to measure etc, if that does perhaps enable me to use more 'convnetional' speakers with better results, that would be an invaluable upgrade. The thing is, if your room is gobbling up speakers and performance, eventually you will never be able to use anything else. Also, you'll never get what could be possible from your system. Treating the actual issue rather than trying to work around it or steam roll it has to be the most sensible plan. I reckon your already into £5k for speakers that you still arent happy with (or haven't turned up) It wouldn't have cost that much for a diagnosis of your space and a bit of consultancy fee. You can make your own panels and traps...you just need some guidance. |
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Post by misterc on Sept 22, 2022 11:34:41 GMT
Oli, is suggesting what we do for clients looking to spend over £5K on speakers, due to the fact you have such a arkward listening space a room map would help you understand where the suck outs/ modes and reflectons are. Apologies Chris, my mind is focusing on two really in depth projects, that require some silly test set ups and mistakes are easily made during pre-compliance.
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 22, 2022 11:40:07 GMT
Oli, is suggesting what we do for clients looking to spend over £5K on speakers, due to the fact you have such a arkward listening space a room map would help you understand where the suck outs/ modes and reflectons are. Apologies Chris, my mind is focusing on two really in depth projects, that require some silly test set ups and mistakes are easily made during pre-compliance. I wondered if you knew anyone Tony, as I know you're a busy man. Also, he's closer to your neck of the woods than mine? |
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Post by misterc on Sept 22, 2022 11:58:31 GMT
There is a company near Winchester I believe? otherwise Shaun Snaith (advanced Acoustics) he is good , the co owner of our studio's helps me when we have to treat the rooms and designs the panels.
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Post by Arke on Sept 22, 2022 15:01:34 GMT
I think you'd actually benefit from getting an acoustician onboard and getting some science involved. Room and room orientation can't change, so you really need to know what is happening in there, and then maybe you can work with it, rather than against it. The Eureka moment came with those rockwool panels. You told me, Jason told me ...but I wish I'd listened earlier. I'd spend £250 on getting the room issues mapped out and then whatever it takes after. It has to be cheaper than keep forking out in speakers and them not working. Tony will know of someone in your area. I wouldn't buy any more speakers until you've sorted that out. Yeah, that's not a bad shout at all. To be fair even if it does cost a bit in 'proper' treatment and fee to measure etc, if that does perhaps enable me to use more 'convnetional' speakers with better results, that would be an invaluable upgrade. I definitely agree with what Oli says... Maybe get a pro in to do some tests and suggest some room treatments. Out of interest, which conventional cone speakers did you try? I am currently designing my next speakers (based on another Troels Gravesen design). My new music room (not built yet) is likely to have a very strong room mode at 50Hz - probably a boost of around 6db+. I may be able to combat this slightly with treatments, however, I feel my best approach is to build a speaker with an active bass driver below about 100-200Hz. Troels has many designs where the largest bass driver (usually 3 way, 4 way and 5 way models) is active and driven by a Hypex plate amp. I have discussed this with Troels and he is convinced that my best option is to be active below about 100-200Hz. He has had a lot of first hand success with this and believes the bass works extremely well driven by class D in the lower frequencies. The Hypex software has the ability to remove peaks and troughs in problem areas, usually sub 200Hz for bass. I know many will strongly disagree with semi active speakers, however, I think the benefits will outweigh the negatives. I won't know for sure until I build these new speakers and try it out. When they're built I could bring them down and we can try them in your room! They'll have 2 x 12" bass drivers below 100Hz (500W per channel class D), so I'd hope the bass will be good! Upper bass and mid will be covered by a further 6" and 8" drivers. More details on the Arke Vaders to follow! |
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Post by optical on Sept 22, 2022 16:22:54 GMT
Yeah, that's not a bad shout at all. To be fair even if it does cost a bit in 'proper' treatment and fee to measure etc, if that does perhaps enable me to use more 'convnetional' speakers with better results, that would be an invaluable upgrade. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â I definitely agree with what Oli says... Maybe get a pro in to do some tests and suggest some room treatments. Out of interest, which conventional cone speakers did you try? I am currently designing my next speakers (based on another Troels Gravesen design). My new music room (not built yet) is likely to have a very strong room mode at 50Hz - probably a boost of around 6db+. I may be able to combat this slightly with treatments, however, I feel my best approach is to build a speaker with an active bass driver below about 100-200Hz. Troels has many designs where the largest bass driver (usually 3 way, 4 way and 5 way models) is active and driven by a Hypex plate amp. I have discussed this with Troels and he is convinced that my best option is to be active below about 100-200Hz. He has had a lot of first hand success with this and believes the bass works extremely well driven by class D in the lower frequencies. The Hypex software has the ability to remove peaks and troughs in problem areas, usually sub 200Hz for bass. I know many will strongly disagree with semi active speakers, however, I think the benefits will outweigh the negatives. I won't know for sure until I build these new speakers and try it out. When they're built I could bring them down and we can try them in your room! They'll have 2 x 12" bass drivers below 100Hz (500W per channel class D), so I'd hope the bass will be good! Upper bass and mid will be covered by a further 6" and 8" drivers. More details on the Arke Vaders to follow! Jason, that sounds like a tremendous offer, I'd be a fool not to take you up on that. To be fair, as a big star wars fan, you had me at Vader.... I have absolutely zero issue with active bass, it's easier to implement to a satisfactory standard and is infinitely more controllable as you know. For anything less than an acoustically sympathetic environment, it's the answer in my opinion. I have a fair amount of room treatment but it's far from ideal, some professional help and some outlay on the proper materials for the job, should yield some progress. Some speakers I've tried (and mostly failed in there) include: Heco The New Statements Cambridge Acoustic Reference Klipsch KG 4.5 Penaudio Serenade (these were probably the best sound with their side facing Bass driver) Loth X BS1's Cambridge Audio Aero 6 (surprisingly good actually) I've gotten an okay result from most of the above but something about them hasn't been quite 'right' for me. The electrostats just sound better to my ears like I say. With the room treated properly that could change. I'm also musing a structural change in the room which would add some space and take out a corner by extending a wall next to the listening position. I've no doubt your builds have the potential to sound better than all of the above, especially with the ability to control the low end. Thanks |
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Post by hifinutt on Sept 22, 2022 16:39:33 GMT
huge fan of the martin logans , had the summit x and they were simply divine for the 4 years i was allowed to keep them . they would still be here now except for domestic reasons !!
one well known audiofile on the forums has bought these and happy with them
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Post by Arke on Sept 22, 2022 16:45:43 GMT
optical LOL! Brilliant, glad you like the name! I shall start a design/build thread very soon. A few things need to align before the build can start, however, I hope to start in October. Oli will be home demoing my Ektas soon. Assuming that goes well operation Arke Vader will commence. Love the look of the Serenade speakers - very elegant and some nice SEAS drivers. The Arke Vaders will be these Troels speakers (Also SEAS drivers): www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-4.htm
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Post by macca on Sept 22, 2022 17:18:46 GMT
What are the room dimensions?
If a bass suck out is the issue I don't see how an omni speaker will fix that. Which doesn't mean it won't, but low bass is omni anyway, regardless of the speaker design.
Getting a professional in does seem like a good idea. Unless after he's reconoitered it he comes back and says 'Nothing you can do with that room mate.'
Reminds me of that I.T bloke we used to have. You'd report a printer that wasn't working, he'd come up and piss about with it for five seconds then say 'Fucked that is mate, use another one.'
I don't know what they were paying him for that but I bet he was on more than me.
Anyway the only other thing I can think of is a speaker that does not have much bass output below 100Hz. Big vintage Sansui, something like that. Site them well out from the wall and you won't get any bass fundamentals exciting the room, but they still do all the other stuff you like pretty well.
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Post by optical on Sept 22, 2022 18:27:38 GMT
optical LOL! Brilliant, glad you like the name! I shall start a design/build thread very soon. A few things need to align before the build can start, however, I hope to start in October. Oli will be home demoing my Ektas soon. Assuming that goes well operation Arke Vader will commence. Love the look of the Serenade speakers - very elegant and some nice SEAS drivers. The Arke Vaders will be these Troels speakers (Also SEAS drivers): www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-4.htm I've just started trying to get my head around that design, it's nothing short of amazing is it. I see what the fuss is about. To be honest they might be a bit big for the room in its current guise.... Although I may have a few ideas to facilitate such a speaker including some redecorating/knocking down of walls .... 😂 Perhaps ultimately even a room move, I know I said that wasn't possible initially but some things just warrant moving mountains don't they..... Food for thought |
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Post by Arke on Sept 22, 2022 19:05:17 GMT
optical LOL! Brilliant, glad you like the name! I shall start a design/build thread very soon. A few things need to align before the build can start, however, I hope to start in October. Oli will be home demoing my Ektas soon. Assuming that goes well operation Arke Vader will commence. Love the look of the Serenade speakers - very elegant and some nice SEAS drivers. The Arke Vaders will be these Troels speakers (Also SEAS drivers): www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-4.htm I've just started trying to get my head around that design, it's nothing short of amazing is it. I see what the fuss is about. To be honest they might be a bit big for the room in its current guise.... Although I may have a few ideas to facilitate such a speaker including some redecorating/knocking down of walls .... 😂 Perhaps ultimately even a room move, I know I said that wasn't possible initially but some things just warrant moving mountains don't they..... Food for thought I am extremely excited about these speakers. All the ingredients are there for an incredible performance. The drivers are exceptionally good and I trust that Troel's design and crossover will be excellent too. Looking forward to hearing that amazing tweeter through an (essentially) 1st order crossover. The midrange driver is supposed to be incredible and the 8" driver will provide great mid and upper bass dynamics. Last but not least is the BMS 12" that Troels loves. It's gonna kick hard with a 500w hypex plate amp. Yes, they may be pretty big in your room, but the bass will be tuneable, which is a massive plus. They are, however, not gonna be cheap! Parts alone are well over £4k. These will be quite an investment, but I'm confident they'll perform seriously well and embarrass many speakers over £20-30k. (You asked for leftfield optical!) |
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Post by antonio on Sept 23, 2022 4:50:58 GMT
Looking at the above posts made me wonder if we will see the first kidney for sale on the forum.  |
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Post by optical on Sept 23, 2022 6:56:10 GMT
(You asked for leftfield optical !) Yes, yes I did. Can of potentially bank account ravenous worms . . . opened. |
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Post by optical on Sept 23, 2022 7:26:04 GMT
What are the room dimensions? If a bass suck out is the issue I don't see how an omni speaker will fix that. Which doesn't mean it won't, but low bass is omni anyway, regardless of the speaker design. Getting a professional in does seem like a good idea. Unless after he's reconoitered it he comes back and says 'Nothing you can do with that room mate.' Reminds me of that I.T bloke we used to have. You'd report a printer that wasn't working, he'd come up and piss about with it for five seconds then say 'Fucked that is mate, use another one.' I don't know what they were paying him for that but I bet he was on more than me. Anyway the only other thing I can think of is a speaker that does not have much bass output below 100Hz. Big vintage Sansui, something like that. Site them well out from the wall and you won't get any bass fundamentals exciting the room, but they still do all the other stuff you like pretty well. Sorry for late response Martin, the dimensions are weird, overall it's probably 16 X 22ft perhaps a little more but one of the corners is cut off and there is an alcove on one side, making it very uneven. A picture and all that . . . . (rough drawing)  Interesting suggestion on the speakers but I would not have thought that less bass would yield more at the listening position, although I can see why you might theorise that some of the waves are cancelling eachother out and therefore having less in the firest place could work. However, if I turn the subs off (less bass) and use speakers with naturally less output there is almost no bass at all. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 23, 2022 7:42:16 GMT
It may sound counterintuitive to do this as most of us try to find a larger area to listen in, but can you square the room off? Yes, you'd lose some space, but I think more speakers would work to a higher level in a more conventionally shaped space?  |
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Post by optical on Sept 23, 2022 7:45:36 GMT
It may sound counterintuitive to do this as most of us try to find a larger area to listen in, but can you square the room off? Yes, you'd lose some space, but I think more speakers would work to a higher level in a more conventionally shaped space? It was considered, unfortunately what isn't on that picture is the door on the right between where you've repositioned my speakers which is a bathroom and in the alcove there is a desk/computer setup, the vinyl storage is exactly where you've put that already too  I agree though that would probably sound a lot better . . . . also you're opening the entrance door straight into a 5"9 speaker . . . |
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 23, 2022 7:55:38 GMT
It may sound counterintuitive to do this as most of us try to find a larger area to listen in, but can you square the room off? Yes, you'd lose some space, but I think more speakers would work to a higher level in a more conventionally shaped space? It was considered, unfortunately what isn't on that picture is the door on the right between where you've repositioned my speakers which is a bathroom and in the alcove there is a desk/computer setup, the vinyl storage is exactly where you've put that already too I agree though that would probably sound a lot better . . . . also you're opening the entrance door straight into a 5"9 speaker . . . You're gonna have to move rooms...or house lol |
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Post by optical on Sept 23, 2022 7:58:10 GMT
So my plan is to do this. - Get rid of the square enterance part on the bottom right (it's not structural so shouldn't be a huge problem). - Put up some sort of partitian/slidable door over the alcove to section off the office/PC area. - Shift the right speaker and listening position to the right to achieve some symmetry, then if there are problems still, at least they are even problems . . .  Happy days ./ . . . potentially. I think this is the best move rather than relocating the system. |
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Post by firebottle on Sept 23, 2022 8:01:07 GMT
Sounds like a good plan.
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 23, 2022 8:41:26 GMT
So my plan is to do this. - Get rid of the square enterance part on the bottom right (it's not structural so shouldn't be a huge problem). - Put up some sort of partitian/slidable door over the alcove to section off the office/PC area. - Shift the right speaker and listening position to the right to achieve some symmetry, then if there are problems still, at least they are even problems . . . Happy days ./ . . . potentially. I think this is the best move rather than relocating the system. Put acoustically sympathetic doors on that alcove if you still want to use the space? At least closing them would square the room off again |
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Post by optical on Sept 23, 2022 8:47:15 GMT
Put acoustically sympathetic doors on that alcove if you still want to use the space? At least closing them would square the room off again Yup, just gotta be careful not to have anything that can't be replicated on the other side though so as to keep things balanced acoustically. Realistically though, as I'll need to redo the carpet and two walls, hang a fire safety door (building regs), it's not going to be particularly soon, but at least it looks like a solid plan that's actually going to make an appreciable difference. A lot of the room modes are created within that corner and reflect back right at the speakers. Locating the corner further away and adding another bass trap in that corner will really calm things down, plus I won't be getting uneven reflections from the right hand speaker which I currently do at the listening position. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 23, 2022 8:49:36 GMT
Put acoustically sympathetic doors on that alcove if you still want to use the space? At least closing them would square the room off again Yup, just gotta be careful not to have anything that can't be replicated on the other side though so as to keep things balanced acoustically. Realistically though, as I'll need to redo the carpet and two walls, hang a fire safety door (building regs), it's not going to be particularly soon, but at least it looks like a solid plan that's actually going to make an appreciable difference. A lot of the room modes are created within that corner and reflect back right at the speakers. Locating the corner further away and adding another bass trap in that corner will really calm things down, plus I won't be getting uneven reflections from the right hand speaker which I currently do at the listening position. I think this is your best option mate. I wouldn't hang about..... demolition is free! Lol |
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Post by Arke on Sept 23, 2022 8:53:43 GMT
So my plan is to do this. - Get rid of the square enterance part on the bottom right (it's not structural so shouldn't be a huge problem). - Put up some sort of partitian/slidable door over the alcove to section off the office/PC area. - Shift the right speaker and listening position to the right to achieve some symmetry, then if there are problems still, at least they are even problems . . . Happy days ./ . . . potentially. I think this is the best move rather than relocating the system. This looks like a great option! That will an amazing space - pretty large too! That will handle some reasonably large speakers  . |
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Post by bluebeat13 on Sept 23, 2022 12:22:38 GMT
Hi Optical,
Although it looks nice and symmetrical on a floor plan, a square room is the last thing you want acoustically.
AV guys building theatre rooms obsess about these things, lots of information on those forums.
Definitely agree that the speakers and room approach will yield far greater results than cables/components. It’s just not as easy or fun as buying new stuff and swapping boxes!
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Post by optical on Sept 23, 2022 12:29:04 GMT
Hi Optical, Although it looks nice and symmetrical on a floor plan, a square room is the last thing you want acoustically. AV guys building theatre rooms obsess about these things, lots of information on those forums. Definitely agree that the speakers and room approach will yield far greater results than cables/components. It’s just not as easy or fun as buying new stuff and swapping boxes! Hi, thanks but I think the rough sketch is perhaps a bit confusing there. It's 16 x 22ft so not exactly square dimensions-wise. Indeed square rooms just sound bad, same as placing a speaker equidistant from a side and a back-wall . . . it's a no no. To be fair I've spent considerable time and effort on the room as it's always yielded the biggest bang for buck, just this one is more problematic than most. Doesn't mean box swapping should stop altogether though! |
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Post by optical on Sept 23, 2022 16:36:45 GMT
Okay I'm a moron (no surprises there)
Took these measurements from a draft drawing of my house I had on file. What I didn't take into account was wall cavities and a membrane at the rear of the room so it is in fact more like 13ft X 18ft which gives me a lot less space to work with....
Does explain why I have some acoustic issues and also has me slightly questioning if more "big" speakers are sensible even though they have full LF control....
Idiot 😬
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