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Post by optical on Jul 7, 2022 7:43:52 GMT
www.lessloss.com/echos-end-p-218.html#a_62-634Yes, it's a joke of a price tag, yes it's just unnecessarily over-engineered BUT if they were to offer the "reference" model for the price of the "original" . . . I must admit I would probably give it a closer look or at least an audition. Whether you believe in isolation/proper grounding/shielding of components/copper quality/socket material etc etc, you cannot deny they have not left any stone unturned when it comes to turning a digital electrical signal into an analogue one. The attention to detail is spectacular. Yesterday I was offered one on 'finance' . . . . Too bloody right - I thought. "What you mean you don't sell that many for outright cash up front?" 
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Post by hifinutt on Jul 7, 2022 7:47:19 GMT
Wow
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2022 7:55:51 GMT
It does look very tidy inside but their blurb is a bit of a red flag
We always know that sonic performance has primarily to do with Jitter reduction, and that Jitter is always going to be contended, since it is impossible to measure with authority. We work by ear where the lab equipment can’t follow.
Bullshit artists. I'd run a mile.
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Post by optical on Jul 7, 2022 8:04:16 GMT
I understand what you're saying macca , wise words of advice. BUT, there is a part of me that wants to believe they are on the right curve of pushing the boundries and blurring the lines between laboratory measurments and the human brain. The phrase "measure with authority" rings true with me becasue I still believe that you cannot measure all the factors involved which make a DAC more pleasing (to some) than others. Perfectly (good) measuring DAC's are being sold on the 2nd hand market in their droves, people are fed up with uninvolving sound. If these DAC's were so great why would anyone have need to sell them? Topping/RME etc, all perfectly adequate but ultimately limited connection to the music. That's just my take on it, no right or wrong (although probably wrong lol). One thing we will certainly agree on though is that there is severe profiteering going on and this is a prime example of it, albeit I believe with some genuine attempt at making a very high quality product that's a bit different. |
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Post by misterc on Jul 7, 2022 8:29:05 GMT
You do realise its a Soekris module inside lol and that imho the Soekris 2541 is actually a better bet, have had two of these through the doors, Martins observation is spot on
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Post by antonio on Jul 7, 2022 8:30:59 GMT
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optical
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Post by optical on Jul 7, 2022 8:37:04 GMT
If you read the original post it does state that unless they remove around $14,000 from the price tag that I wouldn'd be entertaining it. It's literally in the first line of the written text. So misterc, have they actually succeeded in making a product inferior by changing a few bits or are you saying the performance is exactly the same with all the extra bits of shielding/tape etc and a chassis made of wood? |
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Post by optical on Jul 7, 2022 8:43:41 GMT
Can't find anything other than the usual 6moons and similar guff from auditioners desperate to keep a free sample. Can you point me anywhere to the criticism Dave? I do like a good dose of comeuppance! |
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Post by misterc on Jul 7, 2022 9:12:37 GMT
So misterc , have they actually succeeded in making a product inferior by changing a few bits or are you saying the performance is exactly the same with all the extra bits of shielding/tape etc and a chassis made of wood? The use the very basic Soekris board, and its ok nothing special at all overhyped dressed up audiofool catcher imho
If you take the 2541, whip it out of its case, build in a really decent psu, change around 30+ components, and look at the dsp (spot of readjustment there) isolate the board etc. It could sound really good like £8K good no problem.
Lessloss do make some not to shabby mains cables, the electronics humm maybe not so.
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Post by antonio on Jul 7, 2022 9:26:59 GMT
Can't find anything other than the usual 6moons and similar guff from auditioners desperate to keep a free sample. Can you point me anywhere to the criticism Dave? I do like a good dose of comeuppance! To be honest I couldn't, it's a few years ago now and I may have been looking at a cable for sale, and comments may have appeared on an American forum, but there was some unkind comments made about Lessloss. I have read a couple of good things about them, but the negativity has always stuck in my head, and whenever I see anything for sale from Lessloss I never look any further, so I suppose it's a 'gut' thing. Could have been regarding prices, I just can't remember now, sorry Chris. |
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2022 9:36:32 GMT
I understand what you're saying macca , wise words of advice. BUT, there is a part of me that wants to believe they are on the right curve of pushing the boundries and blurring the lines between laboratory measurments and the human brain. The phrase "measure with authority" rings true with me becasue I still believe that you cannot measure all the factors involved which make a DAC more pleasing (to some) than others. Perfectly (good) measuring DAC's are being sold on the 2nd hand market in their droves, people are fed up with uninvolving sound. If these DAC's were so great why would anyone have need to sell them? Topping/RME etc, all perfectly adequate but ultimately limited connection to the music. That's just my take on it, no right or wrong (although probably wrong lol). One thing we will certainly agree on though is that there is severe profiteering going on and this is a prime example of it, albeit I believe with some genuine attempt at making a very high quality product that's a bit different. There's always the promise of 'better' and the vast majority of enthusiasts have no understanding of how digital audio works, and are not interested in learning. So I think what DAC they go for doesn't really have any bearing on its efficacy. I guess there are a lot of R-2R DACs on the used market too. Unless we have some hard data about people changing from D-S to R-2R we don't really know if people are abandoning D-S for R-2R in droves. I mean maybe they are, but we don't really know. I'm not personally thinking of changing, I feel like I am connecting with the music just fine. After thirty odd years doing this I have seen and done 'New improved mousetrap' syndrome so many times. After the honeymoon period it just wears off and we're on to the next fix. That's why now I am like 'You say this is better? Then show me with graphs! Otherwise my cash stays in my pocket.' I agree that this Lessloss is a very high quality product, it's not the price I have the problem with but the bullshit marketing spiel makes me think that, in reality, they don't have anything substantial to sell it with. |
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Post by optical on Jul 7, 2022 9:37:31 GMT
Can't find anything other than the usual 6moons and similar guff from auditioners desperate to keep a free sample. Can you point me anywhere to the criticism Dave? I do like a good dose of comeuppance! To be honest I couldn't, it's a few years ago now and I may have been looking at a cable for sale, and comments may have appeared on an American forum, but there was some unkind comments made about Lessloss. I have read a couple of good things about them, but the negativity has always stuck in my head, and whenever I see anything for sale from Lessloss I never look any further, so I suppose it's a 'gut' thing. Could have been regarding prices, I just can't remember now, sorry Chris. No problem Dave, thanks for trying anyway. Yeah I completely agree, it doesn't matter how many positives you read about companies/products, that one negative experience is enough to stick in the brain for all time! Moot point anyway as I don't think I'd be able to afford, and with the advice now given, be willing to shell out for pretty much any one of their products! |
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Post by optical on Jul 7, 2022 9:40:05 GMT
I understand what you're saying macca , wise words of advice. BUT, there is a part of me that wants to believe they are on the right curve of pushing the boundries and blurring the lines between laboratory measurments and the human brain. The phrase "measure with authority" rings true with me becasue I still believe that you cannot measure all the factors involved which make a DAC more pleasing (to some) than others. Perfectly (good) measuring DAC's are being sold on the 2nd hand market in their droves, people are fed up with uninvolving sound. If these DAC's were so great why would anyone have need to sell them? Topping/RME etc, all perfectly adequate but ultimately limited connection to the music. That's just my take on it, no right or wrong (although probably wrong lol). One thing we will certainly agree on though is that there is severe profiteering going on and this is a prime example of it, albeit I believe with some genuine attempt at making a very high quality product that's a bit different. There's always the promise of 'better' and the vast majority of enthusiasts have no understanding of how digital audio works, and are not interested in learning. So I think what DAC they go for doesn't really have any bearing on its efficacy. I guess there are a lot of R-2R DACs on the used market too. Unless we have some hard data about people changing from D-S to R-2R we don't really know if people are abandoning D-S for R2-R in droves. I mean maybe they are, but we don't really know. I'm not personally thinking of changing, I feel like I am connecting with the music just fine. After thirty odd years doing this I have seen and done 'New improved mousetrap' syndrome so many times. After the honeymoon period it just wears off and we're on to the next fix. That's why now I am like 'You say this is better? Then show me with graphs! Otherwise my cash stays in my pocket.' I agree that this Lessloss is a very high quality product, it's not the price I have the problem with but the bullshit marketing spiel makes me thing that, in reality, they don't have anything substantial to sell it with. Good points macca there are certainly lots of all types floating around in the market, so you're right, doesn't necessarily point to any conclusions. That's an important point that you are connecting with the music, the most important one by far. Doesn't matter how you get there, just that you do. Great answer there Martin. |
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2022 9:55:54 GMT
If we want to talk expensive DACs there was a Nagra at Cranage that was £26500.
Obviously in an unfamiliar system it's impossible to get any idea of what the DAC is contributing. Whilst I theoretically could afford one it would have to offer some pretty huge improvements over a Topping E30 for me to even consider it. Given how a DAC works I don't see how it possibly could.
Now that would not stop me trying it in my own system if someone sent me a loaner. Just out of interest if nothing else. If it blew me away then I'd say so.
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Post by misterc on Jul 7, 2022 11:19:52 GMT
The key here is simple, does it put a smile on your face when you when get it in your system at home
The Nagra wasn't the top one by any strech just the classic version look up the HD version (That one leasted 6 weeks at home), its very good indeed but has a distinctive way with sound that will attact a specific type of potential customer.
Right now I am listening to a old Sony dac thats in for a full service, plus some minor improvments. Even as it is its very listenable which is more than I can say for a lot of the newer dacs
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2022 11:36:36 GMT
The key here is simple, does it put a smile on your face when you when get it in your system at home The Nagra wasn't the top one by any strech just the classic version look up the HD version (That one leasted 6 weeks at home), its very good indeed but has a distinctive way with sound that will attact a specific type of potential customer. Right now I am listening to a old Sony dac thats in for a full service, plus some minor improvments. Even as it is its very listenable which is more than I can say for a lot of the newer dacs well for me it is the musical content that puts the smile on my face, all the equipment needs to do is not spoil that. Ofc that's easier said than done. In fact I had that many years ago with Systemdek IIX, Nag MP30, Denon PM250 and Wharfedale CRS3 speakers. I still recall my friend's exact look on his face and his words 'F#ck me will you listen to this!' - but... I wanted deeper bass than the tiny speakers would deliver, then the amp went faulty....and so off again on the merry-go-round. I listen for flaws and if I hear no flaws then I am happy. But others listen for more nebulous things like soundstage depth, width, height, instruments sounding like 'real instruments', the conveying of the emotion, and all that stuff. So DACs are not so simple for them. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 7, 2022 14:09:39 GMT
For once, i am not going to lambast a device based on it price.
The Lessloss Echo's End was the first cog on my journey to R-2R and then finally the Soekris. I found out about them via an article onnline. The Panzerholz chassis in particular, as i was searching for a supplier of said material at the time. The DAC board is the basic Soekris R-2R and is effectivly the equavalet of the 1421 DAC. Obviously they have taken the OEM route and filled a very expensive piece of wood with mega "bling", but the PSU isnt awful and the ideas they implemented are quite similiar to the approach i took when building the LPSU for the 1421 when i had it.
Further experimentation with LPSU modules from china yeilded better results, and the 2541 that Antonio has is a DAC i think would both sound and measure as well as, or better than the Lessloss.
I took a lot of inspiration from that DAC, and whilst it is expensive, i have seen people spent a lot more on way worse equipment.
The panzer chassis is a masterstroke IMO and if i had access to that sort of thing, everything i built would be in it.
Credit where it's due.
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Post by misterc on Jul 7, 2022 14:58:43 GMT
Oli, You can purchase Paznerholz direct from the manufacturer, I have enough off cuts to make a small psu box from it I think? In certain appliations it works rather well, not so sure on the Lenz law aspect though. PQ has been using it for quite a few years to prevent valve mirophany and a few other audio companies use it in other areas as well.
Panzerholz information
Maybe the best thing about the lessloss is the chassis then? It's ceratinly not the sound! The 2451 certained measured and SOUNDED better no question even beofore you made a psu for it. |
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Post by karma67 on Jul 7, 2022 15:46:01 GMT
yes but i think you have to buy a whole sheet.big bucks
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Post by misterc on Jul 7, 2022 17:00:25 GMT
yes but i think you have to buy a whole sheet.big bucks Group buy if direct, the wholesalers that I percured my sheets from is no more (Retired) so an EU hunt maybe needed |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 7, 2022 17:10:41 GMT
yes but i think you have to buy a whole sheet.big bucks Group buy if direct, the wholesalers that I percured my sheets from is no more (Retired) so an EU hunt maybe needed It's still extremely expensive, and I can tell you with authority that the company in Germany don't always want to play ball with the public, especially now with the added paperwork. The last group buy descended into a bit of disgruntled-ness too, so i doubt the enthusiasm is there for it. Permali is now the second best UK option. It's available in the UK from a UK supplier. However, it's as expensive as panzer and only half as good (in my choice of application) |
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Post by karma67 on Jul 7, 2022 17:43:02 GMT
Group buy if direct, the wholesalers that I percured my sheets from is no more (Retired) so an EU hunt maybe needed It's still extremely expensive, and I can tell you with authority that the company in Germany don't always want to play ball with the public, especially now with the added paperwork. The last group buy descended into a bit of disgruntled-ness too, so i doubt the enthusiasm is there for it. Permali is now the second best UK option. It's available in the UK from a UK supplier. However, it's as expensive as panzer and only half as good (in my choice of application) plus the logistics in getting to the uk,cutting up etc. Permali (jabroc) is a much more attractive proposition as you can buy that in 1000 x 1000 boards. |
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Post by karma67 on Jul 7, 2022 17:45:42 GMT
Group buy if direct, the wholesalers that I percured my sheets from is no more (Retired) so an EU hunt maybe needed The last group buy descended into a bit of disgruntled-ness too, so i doubt the enthusiasm is there for it. did it lol,was that the one i was involved with? |
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Post by misterc on Jul 7, 2022 18:38:40 GMT
Permali is now the second best UK option. It's available in the UK from a UK supplier. However, it's as expensive as panzer and only half as good (in my choice of application)
LOL, I did stint @ Permalli's (pretty much most of the ex Dowty boys did at some point, it was hot and shitty) the old factory used to located on the Bristol road just down form the old cinema complex.
Some of the chaps I work with on non audio projects are located about 5 miles up the road, they still use Permalli's but not for record player plinths though 
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Post by misterc on Jul 7, 2022 18:49:03 GMT
Maybe my attitude is different, if enough of you REALLY want the material then plan a trip divide the van hire and fuel equally bewteen the number of you interest. Suggest at least 10 of youto make it viable for yourselves. Work the sums out and an equal devision of the costs.
Possibly one of you chaps knows a courier or lorry driver that does fairly regular trips to German maybe slip him a big drink to assist.
Maybe Martin might have some contacts from his days at Fedex or knows some sub contractors?, just thinking aloud here.
Shipping wise two weeks ago we had a euro pallet from Berlin with 180 - 200Kg's cost to the day via 3 days road was 220 euro's plus the vat, that about £220 inc vat divded by 10 is £22 each . If you feel the stuff is that good and its going to make that difference you will find a way.
You could work out alturnative for casework, Sepele is up there with Ebony but instead of the resin and reforming you could try constrained layer damping with various other materials, just a thought?
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 7, 2022 19:35:10 GMT
The last group buy descended into a bit of disgruntled-ness too, so i doubt the enthusiasm is there for it. did it lol,was that the one i was involved with? I don't know who was involved mate, just on the grapevine that a recent GB for Panzer ended with a few participants unhappy. Other than that, I don't know why, and didn't ask for details. I was looking for a route to some Panzer for a new rack and that was the info I was given. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 7, 2022 19:36:25 GMT
Permali is now the second best UK option. It's available in the UK from a UK supplier. However, it's as expensive as panzer and only half as good (in my choice of application)
LOL, I did stint @ Permalli's (pretty much most of the ex Dowty boys did at some point, it was hot and shitty) the old factory used to located on the Bristol road just down form the old cinema complex.
Some of the chaps I work with on non audio projects are located about 5 miles up the road, they still use Permalli's but not for record player plinths though
The projected use wasn't for a plinth. It was for a bespoke rack. Permali would do, but it's cost is stupid. I'd pay it for Panzer, not for Permali. |
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Post by karma67 on Jul 7, 2022 19:53:26 GMT
LOL, I did stint @ Permalli's (pretty much most of the ex Dowty boys did at some point, it was hot and shitty) the old factory used to located on the Bristol road just down form the old cinema complex.
Some of the chaps I work with on non audio projects are located about 5 miles up the road, they still use Permalli's but not for record player plinths though
The projected use wasn't for a plinth. It was for a bespoke rack. Permali would do, but it's cost is stupid. I'd pay it for Panzer, not for Permali. interesting, why is that? both are classed as a densified wood,both use beech veneers. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 7, 2022 20:07:50 GMT
The projected use wasn't for a plinth. It was for a bespoke rack. Permali would do, but it's cost is stupid. I'd pay it for Panzer, not for Permali. interesting, why is that? both are classed as a densified wood,both use beech veneers. The information Angus had on it suggests it's only marginally better than Birch ply. After hearing that, and figuring in the cost of how much I'd need, I decided against it. |
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 7, 2022 20:15:28 GMT
Had some delignit b15 panzerholz in the worksop last week, making a thorens plinth. It was only 28 ply, compared to the older offcut i had left that was 40 ply per inch.
So be aware there are different grades the good stuff is 40 ply.
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