|
Post by brian2957 on Jun 27, 2022 8:56:35 GMT
That seems a decent price for a starter kit with lots in it. Of course I don't know what any of them do
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jun 27, 2022 9:28:58 GMT
THE BUILD: LOTS OF CLAMPS!!! The next challenge was the gluing together of all 18 layers. I have seen other build threads of laminated designs and the glue up didn't always go well...!!! Some people had problems with the layers drifting slightly and this would create a skewed, non-square cabinet. I needed to plan well and couldn't risk a big mistake at this stage. Some laminated constructions use continuous dowels (wood) or long steel rods to align and tie all the layers together, however, these were sometimes problematic and skewed. After some thought, I decided to use short dowels and ensure each layer has some degree of interlock - this would further enhance strength, but would allow me to tweak the alignment of the layers as the glue up progressed. I decided to use 4 dowels per layer. The weakest point is the intersection between the horizontal and vertical braces - this is only a 16mm x 16mm square and I wanted to ensure a very strong bond here. The orange arrows show the dowel points: I decided to use 6mm diameter and 40mm long wooden dowels. Each layer is 24mm thick, so a dowel centred through one layer would protrude by 8mm into each neighbouring layer. Therefore, I would put a 40mm dowel into every other layer. This is quite difficult to explain so here is a sketch: You can see that everything is tied together nicely, and (crucially) there will be some adjustment to correct any drift/skew during the gluing process. The next challenge was to drill holes very precisely... The holes had to be in exactly the same place on every layer and the holes had to be perfectly perpendicular to the layer. Even a tiny error would be magnified with each layer. I made a jig which would fit snuggly over a layer. This jig had 10mm holes so the router guide collet would slot in and align each hole perfectly. NB: the (top) outer holes are for a slightly different dowel position on 3 of the rear (hypex) layers. Here the braces have been cut to allow clearance for the passive radiator basket and the dowels have shifted outboard very slightly. I gathered all of clamps and began the glue up process... I started at the back (rear baffle) and worked up. I used a good quality, waterproof PVA glue - this was applied liberally and consistently to one surface. Once glued the layers are easily repositionable for about 30mins, so I had to work fast and did about 5 or 6 layers in a gluing session. As feared, the layers did drift easily - it may only be 0.2mm between two layers, however, this became 1mm over 5 layers - EEK! This would equate to 3-4mm skew over the full 18 layers! NOT GOOD!!! Fortunately, I had anticipated the drift, so after gluing 5-6 layers I got a set square and used the clamps to force the layers into a perfectly square alignment. The glue had not cured, so it was relatively easy to get a handful of layers in perfect alignment. Once aligned I could clamp all of the layers together with considerable force - the rear baffle was protected from the clamps with pieces of scrap wood. Each gluing session took about 45mins and around 5 or 6 layers were clamped (depending on drift). Those layers were left to cure for 24 hours before the next 5-6 layers were glued into the stack. After 3 days (only about 1 hour per day) the stack was 17 layers high: Just the front baffle remained! That would be glued into place once it had been routed for the inset veneer. Routing for the veneer was a massive challenge and did NOT go perfectly to plan (some stressful times ahead...). The veneering is covered in the next instalment - stay tuned folks!
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jun 27, 2022 9:32:17 GMT
That seems a decent price for a starter kit with lots in it. Of course I don't know what any of them do The router manual has some guidance and YouTube is your friend! Practice on scrap, then there is nothing to lose! A Henry hoover (other vacuums are available) will connect to the dust extraction attachment on the Makita. It makes it more cumbersome to use, but is virtually dust free then. I adapted some lightweight hose to minimise the drag on the routing process.
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Jun 27, 2022 10:08:09 GMT
That seems a decent price for a starter kit with lots in it. Of course I don't know what any of them do Can they be 'upgraded'
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jun 29, 2022 13:02:38 GMT
THE BUILD: THE VENEER - where things went wrong! I had never handled, cut, glued or used veneer before... 'How hard can it be?', I thought. Well, it was certainly extremely challenging and didn't go completely smoothly... (no pun intended!) I had decided to inset a veneer into the front baffle around the driver - it would be surrounded by a 20mm wide border of Baltic birch ply. I chose a darker veneer for two main reasons: firstly, to allow the black driver to blend in and look more discrete; and secondly, to further create the illusion that the sub is smaller than it actually is. I considered various veneers including black walnut, smoked oak and smoked chestnut - there wasn't a massive choice as the veneer needed to be around 36cm wide minimum. My wife and I decided on smoked chestnut - this is a rich dark brown, with a beautiful grain. The unbacked veneer is 0.6mm thick, so I needed to create a 0.6mm deep rebate over the front baffle and leave a precise 20mm border. I was dreading doing this! Any woodworker will know that creating an exact 0.6mm recess over a large surface area would be extremely difficult with hand tools, if not impossible... I started with the template below: This template would clamp onto the baffle and allow me to route a 0.6mm deep channel around the outer edge of the veneer inset. This was first clamped to the top and the top half of the 0.6mm recess routed. I then flipped it, re-clamped exactly into place and routed the bottom half of the channel. I very gradually adjusted the router depth and used a digital calliper (with depth gauge) to ensure a 0.6mm depth. The outer channel went well (no pictures I'm afraid) and produced a perfectly clean border for the veneer rebate. I now need to remove 0.6mm over the entire face, excluding the border and the already routed driver hole. I used the above template and little by little removed 0.6mm channels over the entire rebate area. The whole rebate was done... How exciting! Wait... F*@K!!! the recess for the veneer was not consistently flat NOOOOO! . Crap! Everything was going so well until now and the extremely difficult job had sadly gone a bit wrong!! The recess had some channels and shallow dishes that were deeper than 0.6mm - in some areas as deep at 1.1mm. This sounds insignificant but this is NO good for veneer - tiny imperfections in the substrate (front baffle recess) will telegraph through the veneer. This will cause shadowing and minor variations in the veneer surface. Also, an uneven substrate surface would make it very difficult to achieve a perfect bond. This is not a great picture, but it shows some slightly deeper channels within the recess surface. I was now a sad man and need to work out a way to save this... I could go deeper (1.2mm) all over and just use two layers, however, the edge of the recess was completely perfect and I daren't risk spoiling this. WHAT WENT WRONG? It turns out that the template was not ideal and had flexed slightly under load. This was OK for the border, but it had no support away from the edges and had bowed. I walked away from the workshop very disheartened and decided to sleep on it. I was tired and didn't want to make it any worse.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 29, 2022 13:34:29 GMT
*edit - no idea what happened there;
I love a good plot twist. What happened next!?
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jun 29, 2022 14:02:31 GMT
*edit - no idea what happened there; I love a good plot twist. What happened next!? I was quite grumpy all evening and had a beer or two!
|
|
|
Post by lurch on Jun 29, 2022 16:28:55 GMT
This is where a wide metal scraper and plastic wood/body stopper comes in handy to get rid of imperfections.
|
|
|
Post by karma67 on Jun 29, 2022 16:37:47 GMT
it would have been a lot easier to have used some birch veneer around the outside rather than route out for smoked chestnut.
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jun 29, 2022 16:41:11 GMT
it would have been a lot easier to have used some birch veneer around the outside rather than route out for smoked chestnut. Do you mean to lay smoked chestnut in the centre of the baffle with a 20mm border and then fit a 20mm frame of birch veneer around? Edit: The Birch ply veneers are 1.4mm thick, so I'd need to match that with 0.6mm thick Chestnut? Perhaps sand the birch veneer to match?
|
|
|
Post by karma67 on Jun 29, 2022 16:46:30 GMT
it would have been a lot easier to have used some birch veneer around the outside rather than route out for smoked chestnut. Do you mean to lay smoked chestnut in the centre of the baffle with a 20mm border and then fit a 20mm frame of birch veneer around? yes,lay the chestnut first,then route out the edge to your finished size and then add the birch around the outside.
|
|
|
Post by karma67 on Jun 29, 2022 17:10:05 GMT
it would have been a lot easier to have used some birch veneer around the outside rather than route out for smoked chestnut. Do you mean to lay smoked chestnut in the centre of the baffle with a 20mm border and then fit a 20mm frame of birch veneer around? Edit: The Birch ply veneers are 1.4mm thick, so I'd need to match that with 0.6mm thick Chestnut? Perhaps sand the birch veneer to match? yep you can do that,why are they so thick? perhaps look around at different suppliers?
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jun 29, 2022 17:20:48 GMT
Do you mean to lay smoked chestnut in the centre of the baffle with a 20mm border and then fit a 20mm frame of birch veneer around? Edit: The Birch ply veneers are 1.4mm thick, so I'd need to match that with 0.6mm thick Chestnut? Perhaps sand the birch veneer to match? yep you can do that,why are they so thick? perhaps look around at different suppliers? This is a retrospective build thread, so it's built now. {I'll have to do a real time build thread one day!} The ply is 24mm thick and 17 layers: I really like your idea and would certainly plan to use it on future builds - thanks for suggesting it1 Perhaps on a future build I could find a veneer thickness that matches the thickness of the plies in the plywood used. On this sub I wanted to keep the plies on the side completely consistent (i.e. all 1.4mm) to give a uniform look. It may have been a challenge to find a 1.4mm thick birch veneer to match. Then I'd ideally need a 1.4mm thick Smoked chestnut veneer too - or perhaps 2 x 0.6mm and sand the birch down 0.2mm to match.
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jun 29, 2022 17:22:24 GMT
This is where a wide metal scraper and plastic wood/body stopper comes in handy to get rid of imperfections. I did consider that, but wasn't sure if the veneer would bond consistently to filler. I was also worried about perfectly flatting the filler...
|
|
|
Post by karma67 on Jun 29, 2022 17:40:51 GMT
yep you can do that,why are they so thick? perhaps look around at different suppliers? This is a retrospective build thread, so it's built now. {I'll have to do a real time build thread one day!} The ply is 24mm thick and 17 layers: I really like your idea and would certainly plan to use it on future builds - thanks for suggesting it1 Perhaps on a future build I could find a veneer thickness that matches the thickness of the plies in the plywood used. On this sub I wanted to keep the plies on the side completely consistent (i.e. all 1.4mm) to give a uniform look. It may have been a challenge to find a 1.4mm thick birch veneer to match. Then I'd ideally need a 1.4mm thick Smoked chestnut veneer too - or perhaps 2 x 0.6mm and sand the birch down 0.2mm to match. ah yes sorry i forgot you have already built it,i wouldn't of worried about the venner being the same thickness as the ply laminate veneer as by the time you had sanded it and then rounded over the egdge you would have hardly seen the edge of the veneer. by the way you can veneer over car filler with no probs.
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Jun 29, 2022 19:31:14 GMT
The devil's always in the detail.
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jun 29, 2022 20:10:41 GMT
The devil's always in the detail. Agree completely. I do make things hard for myself by trying out new skills. I'm no stranger to making mistakes on builds... The challenge is rectifying them!
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jun 29, 2022 20:12:54 GMT
This is a retrospective build thread, so it's built now. {I'll have to do a real time build thread one day!} The ply is 24mm thick and 17 layers: I really like your idea and would certainly plan to use it on future builds - thanks for suggesting it1 Perhaps on a future build I could find a veneer thickness that matches the thickness of the plies in the plywood used. On this sub I wanted to keep the plies on the side completely consistent (i.e. all 1.4mm) to give a uniform look. It may have been a challenge to find a 1.4mm thick birch veneer to match. Then I'd ideally need a 1.4mm thick Smoked chestnut veneer too - or perhaps 2 x 0.6mm and sand the birch down 0.2mm to match. ah yes sorry i forgot you have already built it,i wouldn't of worried about the venner being the same thickness as the ply laminate veneer as by the time you had sanded it and then rounded over the egdge you would have hardly seen the edge of the veneer. by the way you can veneer over car filler with no probs. Very true, the top veneer thickness is lost in a small roundover anyway. Your comments are much appreciated - always good to learn new skills and gather other good ideas and tricks.
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jun 30, 2022 10:15:21 GMT
THE BUILD: THE VENEER ROUND 2 (back in a happy place!). Thanks for the comments and advice folks! The sub is finished, but the tips and advice are really useful for future builds.My first time at veneering had got off to a bad start. The jig had bowed and the 0.6mm rebate wasn't 0.6mm. I did consider car body filler at the time, but wasn't that experienced with it and was concerned about filling to depths of 0.1-0.5mm and also perfectly flatting it. I also considered skimming the entire baffle flat and trying again, however, I'd then have to deepen the driver rebate too. I decided to route an inner square at 1.2mm deep. This would smooth out all of the channels and dips and create a perfectly flat base (hopefully!). I would the lay an inner square of smoked chestnut and then lay the finished smoked chestnut veneer layer on top. I made a much stiffer jig which would fit snuggly over the baffle and allow me to route the deeper inner square rebate. The jig was clamped into place, a channel was routed and then the jig moved down. This was repeated until the entire lower rebate was complete. It only took about 30mins - not bad to fix my first mistake! I also have a decent stiff jig for routing any future rebates in another sub! Here are a few close ups of the twin veneer rebate (problem fixed - yey!): This is with the radius chiselled out: As previously mentioned, I have never veneered before so spoke to my father (a carpenter and boat builder of 50 years) and my brother (also a carpenter) to get some tips. After some discussions and online research I realised there are many methods to bond veneer and opinions vary on what is best. The ideal solution can depend on the veneer, substrate, substrate curvature and tools available etc. The substrate is (now) completely flat so I opted to use a good quality PVA and clamp the veneer (using a stiff board) onto the baffle during curing. I used some smaller pieces of smoked chestnut veneer and undertook various test bonds to some scrap Birch ply. The experiments showed that the veneer bonded extremely well with the 'wet' PVA method - once cured it was extremely well bonded. I began with the inner (base layer) of veneer... This was cut to size with a scalpel and the substrate coated in a thin and consistent layer of PVA. The veneer was laid into the 1.2mm rebate and clamped firmly with an 18mm board on top. This was left for 24hours. The next (top layer) of smoked chestnut was bonded in pretty much the same way. The smoked chestnut was extremely delicate and brittle, so it had to be cut very carefully. I first cut a square shape to fit exactly and then cut the 20mm radius 'corners' to fit. This took a while, as it needed to be perfect. The second layer of veneer was laid orthogonally to the first and clamped for 24 hrs during cure. This is the sub with both veneer layers bonded into the rebates: The driver hole was roughly cut into the veneer before it was bonded onto the baffle. Then the veneer was trimmed to fit the driver rebate exactly: I first cut it within 1-2mm of the driver rebate with a scalpel and it was carefully sanded (with sandpaper on a curved block) to precisely fit the driver rebate. In hindsight I could've routed the driver hole and rebate after veneering, however, I was a little nervous about damaging the veneer. Here are some images of the veneer bonded into the baffle: Nearly finished now - Just sanding and finishing remains.
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Jun 30, 2022 11:34:17 GMT
That is flippin' stunning.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Jun 30, 2022 11:46:23 GMT
That is flippin' stunning. What he said. Wowee
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 30, 2022 11:50:13 GMT
It's a beauty!
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Jun 30, 2022 12:55:52 GMT
Trick for routing driver holes. Cut and route the main hole, leave the step until after you've applied veneer, then route the step, the substrate wood supports the veneer and eliminates the risk of chipping.
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jun 30, 2022 13:51:45 GMT
Trick for routing driver holes. Cut and route the main hole, leave the step until after you've applied veneer, then route the step, the substrate wood supports the veneer and eliminates the risk of chipping. Thank you, that's a good tip. There may be a second sub one day, so I'll probably do that on the next one.
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Jun 30, 2022 17:16:30 GMT
Bloody excellent work, I know I would not have the patience, never mind not having the skill or the tools.
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jul 4, 2022 17:21:39 GMT
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Jul 4, 2022 17:40:00 GMT
That looks fab, I bet SWMBO will be very pleased, and I don't believe you've mentioned whether you are enjoying the sound.
|
|
Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by Arke on Jul 4, 2022 17:50:34 GMT
That looks fab, I bet SWMBO will be very pleased, and I don't believe you've mentioned whether you are enjoying the sound. Thank you! . SWMBO is actually pretty chilled about my HiFi obsession! I am fortunate enough to have a separate room, so have relative freedom on what goes in there (as long as I don't spend too much!!!). She does really like them and was consulted a lot on the design. I am probably more particular than her and wanted them to look pretty. A sub is often a bit of a brute, and I wanted a sub and a good looking piece of furniture. I will mention the sound soon. <SPOILER ALERT> I don't miss the stereo pair of REL t7i's it replaces!
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Jul 4, 2022 17:52:11 GMT
That's a very pretty sub the self satisfaction must be off the vharts on this job
|
|
|
Post by karma67 on Jul 4, 2022 17:57:50 GMT
yep it looks fantastic,brilliant contrast.
|
|