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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 7:36:50 GMT
when i was into box swapping i always used to drool over mark levinson and krell kit. never owned any though..would love to try some at home though. anyone here got good experience with yank kit.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 20, 2018 7:48:56 GMT
Ive had three Krells. It wouldn’t be far off beam to refer to them as “the Good,The Bad and The ugly”.
KSA50mk1 was stellar. The sassiest bass imaginable, grip like no other and smoooooth with it too. The other two were KSA80 and KSA100.the latter was mechanical and unattractive to listen to. It was like the alter ego of the KAA50.
KSA80 was OK, but not a patch on KSA50. Lots of people rate it but it had no magic. Capable, big and ballsy though. For people who want big scale it’s still a good amp.
I’ve been had a few other American amps too.
Bryson 4B was great. If I hadn’t had a KSA50 I’d have been in love with it. Lots of slam and dynamics without any downside.
Aragon 4004 was similar but with a more velvety tone. The muscle was there though and it was very believable.
Bedini 100/100 upgraded to 802 spec. These are a bit of an underground amp. Shahinian owners are said to go crazy for them. 100 watts Class A made me want to love it, but it was only so so. Had a hardness to it at times.
Adcom GFA 555. About as unsexy as they come. Nobody would dare mention them in the same breath as the Absolute Sounds “muscle amps” but it was up there with many and better than some. I still can’t believe how cheap these are.
I’ve never had Levinson amps, but I did have few listens to a mates recent-ish model costing a good few grand. It was bright, hard and had nothing special about it. He swears by the older Levinson amps and he’s had them all.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 20, 2018 9:05:10 GMT
I don’t have many pics on my iPad but I do have one of the Bryson
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Post by dsjr on Jul 20, 2018 10:25:10 GMT
For me and over several samples - a KSA50mk1 was slightly cloudy sounding and maybe not the most atmospheric amp around - thus started the ARC preamp with Krell power amp trend, but in a tri amp Isobarik active setup DNM driven and owned by Jimmy Hughes in the mid 80's, it sounded really great. The KSA80 my colleague had was lovely and it was well able to drive his Apogee Duetta Sigbature speakers for fifteen years or so with no reliability issues. I nearly bought a pair of KMA100's used for nearly £1700 thirty years ago and I should have done instead of the Tube Technology Genesis valve amps which ran their quartet of EL34 output valves much too hard. Another KSA80 into Apogee Caliper Sigs was good sounding too I remember. I had the chance of a KSA50S and owned it for a year or so before selling it to Macca. Rather like the Crowns mentioned below as it's a 'straight' kind of amp with no added 'charm' (on a smaller amp scale, I find Sonneteer amps do likewise but not LFD, which seem to have 'attitude' with it). I sold it because it ran too hot in it's confined space - oh, and I was more skint than usual as well.... Early Krells after the fan assisted originals ran very hot all the time and I feel that this mid period before plateau-basing generation suffered terribly with leaky and dried out caps. Forum poster Simon (SQ) came by at least one KSA250 when they were twenty years old or so and they were absolutely effed according to the pics he posted at the time. I heard one when it would have been less than ten years old and it was hard and harsh as nails... Threshold amps again had this beefy velvet quality to them and the derived Nakamichi power amps were similar (I owned a PA5mk2 and friends had the PA7 in both varients - incredibly cheap for the engineering on offer and good sound too). Nak preamps were less successful and the line stages easily bettered today despite the lavish build. Very ott output stages which show their age now as modern transistors could minimise the numbers used (ten a side in the PA7) and very long warm-up times (two hours or so) to open up fully. I had an ARC SP14/Classic 60 at home for a couple of days and thought then excellent, after the lambasting the ARC brand generally gets from non-sheep people. The SP14 was pretty honest, but didn't last long because it didn't sound 'rosy.' The Classic 60 was replaced too and possibly with the same wine but in a new bottle to keep interest going. 1980's and pre take-over 90's black-box Levinson was a hidden secret and many trade contacts rated these far higher than any Krell or ARC product. I've already told the story about why HFN never got to review Levinson. I use geriatric early to mid 70's Crown amps and acknowledge they're not for everyone. Absolutely NO romance or overt musicality, they just put out what goes in and the D-150 is a little 'dry' with it too - perfect for the equally geriatric organically coloured BC2's and depth of image is recording related, not 'there' all the time. Dated in low impedance drive as they deliberately limit beyond a certain point. After their Power Line models, I believe Crown went more into PA and sound-reinforcement amps which are bomb-proof, but maybe not for delicate domestic sounds? I have the use of a rather wonderful velvet glove DC300A amp every so often and it's on the bucket list, even though my head tells me a Quad 606/707/909 family amp is the better choice for the money... In the late 70's, KJ dabbled with BGW, Phase Linear, early small Bryston, The Ampzilla and a few others like the awesome Quattre/QMI Gain Cell (which also suffered awesome blow-ups later I gather after a few years of professional abuse...). Taking on Naim in late '77 kinda blew all that away at the time and the rest is history now... Bryston used to be cheap and well liked in studios twenty years ago. For some reason they and importers PMC, hiked the prices up big-time in the mid noughties and maybe this was due to pro studios going more into baby desktop actives of which there's hundreds around, the big soffit wall models there to impress rock bands I was sarcastically told once. I had a BP25 preamp and after twenty four hours powered, it was sweet toned. From cold it was too stark sounding and I didn't realise it at the time. Twenty year warranty though and the replacement BP26 model has extra supplies a la Naim Supercap, but the £1250 BP25 became the £2500 BP26 overnight sadly and dealer margins were very low too I remember. I lost 50% of the trade price selling it
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 20, 2018 12:47:24 GMT
For me and over several samples - a KSA50mk1 was slightly cloudy sounding and maybe not the most atmospheric amp around - thus started the ARC preamp with Krell power amp trend, but in a tri amp Isobarik active setup DNM driven and owned by Jimmy Hughes in the mid 80's, it sounded really great. The KSA80 my colleague had was lovely and it was well able to drive his Apogee Duetta Sigbature speakers for fifteen years or so with no reliability issues. I nearly bought a pair of KMA100's used for nearly £1700 thirty years ago and I should have done instead of the Tube Technology Genesis valve amps which ran their quartet of EL34 output valves much too hard. Another KSA80 into Apogee Caliper Sigs was good sounding too I remember. I had the chance of a KSA50S and owned it for a year or so before selling it to Macca. Rather like the Crowns mentioned below as it's a 'straight' kind of amp with no added 'charm' (on a smaller amp scale, I find Sonneteer amps do likewise but not LFD, which seem to have 'attitude' with it). I sold it because it ran too hot in it's confined space - oh, and I was more skint than usual as well.... Early Krells after the fan assisted originals ran very hot all the time and I feel that this mid period before plateau-basing generation suffered terribly with leaky and dried out caps. Forum poster Simon (SQ) came by at least one KSA250 when they were twenty years old or so and they were absolutely effed according to the pics he posted at the time. I heard one when it would have been less than ten years old and it was hard and harsh as nails... Threshold amps again had this beefy velvet quality to them and the derived Nakamichi power amps were similar (I owned a PA5mk2 and friends had the PA7 in both varients - incredibly cheap for the engineering on offer and good sound too). Nak preamps were less successful and the line stages easily bettered today despite the lavish build. Very ott output stages which show their age now as modern transistors could minimise the numbers used (ten a side in the PA7) and very long warm-up times (two hours or so) to open up fully. I had an ARC SP14/Classic 60 at home for a couple of days and thought then excellent, after the lambasting the ARC brand generally gets from non-sheep people. The SP14 was pretty honest, but didn't last long because it didn't sound 'rosy.' The Classic 60 was replaced too and possibly with the same wine but in a new bottle to keep interest going. 1980's and pre take-over 90's black-box Levinson was a hidden secret and many trade contacts rated these far higher than any Krell or ARC product. I've already told the story about why HFN never got to review Levinson. I use geriatric early to mid 70's Crown amps and acknowledge they're not for everyone. Absolutely NO romance or overt musicality, they just put out what goes in and the D-150 is a little 'dry' with it too - perfect for the equally geriatric organically coloured BC2's and depth of image is recording related, not 'there' all the time. Dated in low impedance drive as they deliberately limit beyond a certain point. After their Power Line models, I believe Crown went more into PA and sound-reinforcement amps which are bomb-proof, but maybe not for delicate domestic sounds? I have the use of a rather wonderful velvet glove DC300A amp every so often and it's on the bucket list, even though my head tells me a Quad 606/707/909 family amp is the better choice for the money... In the late 70's, KJ dabbled with BGW, Phase Linear, early small Bryston, The Ampzilla and a few others like the awesome Quattre/QMI Gain Cell (which also suffered awesome blow-ups later I gather after a few years of professional abuse...). Taking on Naim in late '77 kinda blew all that away at the time and the rest is history now... Bryston used to be cheap and well liked in studios twenty years ago. For some reason they and importers PMC, hiked the prices up big-time in the mid noughties and maybe this was due to pro studios going more into baby desktop actives of which there's hundreds around, the big soffit wall models there to impress rock bands I was sarcastically told once. I had a BP25 preamp and after twenty four hours powered, it was sweet toned. From cold it was too stark sounding and I didn't realise it at the time. Twenty year warranty though and the replacement BP26 model has extra supplies a la Naim Supercap, but the £1250 BP25 became the £2500 BP26 overnight sadly and dealer margins were very low too I remember. I lost 50% of the trade price selling it I bought a DNM 3a and never even fired it up. One of my biggest regrets. Everyone seemed to have an opinion on it and they were very much Heaven and Hell. One day I hope to find out.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 20, 2018 13:18:05 GMT
Threshold is one I would have loved to try. I’ve been outbid a few times. My mate who loves early Levinson also has very positive memories of Threshold. He’s a slo a big fan of Croft. You and he would like many of the same things I reckon.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 20, 2018 13:18:43 GMT
I read the above and think how long winded it is - all I know what to talk about and nobody elsewhere in the slightest bit interested The DNM preamps changed too often in the 1980's for me to ever take them fully seriously although Jimmy had great results from them. Denis was constantly doing little tweaks though and every other batch of boards had slight changes on them I recall, audible or not...
I'm suspicious of most amps with banks of output devices. In the past, I believe many of these took ages for the devices to 'track' each other similarly but it could be for other reasons - our very first Quad 606 too two hours to lose the grainy sound quality it had, but later mk1's I later discovered were sweet as a nut right from switch-on! - so may not have been the output stages at all...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 20, 2018 13:24:19 GMT
I’m still getting stuff from it, Dave. Like the Nakamichis being Threshold inspired. I had no idea. I think you’re underselling the value. Nobody else knows the stuff you do. If they do, they aren’t sharing. I spend long periods searching forums for info contained in historical posts. A couple of years from now, these posts will still be popping up,on Google Searches and informing people you will never meet about things not available anywhere else.,
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 20, 2018 13:28:06 GMT
I only met Denis very briefly at a show. Memories are that he was polite, intelligent and rotund, He was with Max Townshend at the time. Similar stature but very different character. So much larger than life. I had a good few chats with Max as a Rock, Rock Ref and Glastonbury owner. I liked him an awful lot.
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Post by antonio on Jul 20, 2018 14:39:05 GMT
I do like the look of your Bryston Westie.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 20, 2018 16:14:16 GMT
I do like the look of your Bryston Westie. It was a real mess when I got it. I had the whole front refinished and the handles replaced. It was really very good and it’s one of only a handful of things I should’ve just kept and settled with. I had a Perreaux prempa withnit, which was the best pre I’ve ever come across. I was in a mad and crazy phase of box swapping and nothing stayed. I cannot speak highly enough of the 4B ST. It was as close as I’ve come to a faultless amp. My KSA50 had something special that made me love it, but the Bryston was probably closest I’ve come to an amp than just amplified.
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Post by antonio on Jul 20, 2018 16:29:06 GMT
I have only heard Bryston through PMC speakers at shows and the sound has never been to our liking. It would be nice to hear them with different speakers.
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Post by macca on Jul 20, 2018 17:02:15 GMT
If it was the skinny floorstanding PMC speakers, forget it. overpriced and over-rated.
Their pro speakers are the ones to go for. They do them in veneer if you want that. That is where they got their reputation. They are very good indeed.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 22, 2018 9:10:03 GMT
On the subject of high end US kit, I found that it only really shows it’s strengths if you have large speakers, decent soxpzed room and want to listen at high-ish levels.
Big amps really only come into their own for me when given the chance to flex those muscles. If you have a small room, small speakers and you listen at moderate levels, I feel you may be just as happy with an integrated amp.
Just my experience. I did find the big US amps I have had to be better than smalller, cheaper amps as long as they were allowed to show what they can do.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2018 11:09:52 GMT
Westie mentioned an Adcom 555 amp not sure if I had a 555 or 565 but any way I used it with an Adcom Preamp 655 which was not bad with the by-pass control in place but sadly both expired when we suffered lightning damage many years ago.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2018 12:11:49 GMT
Westie mentioned an Adcom 555 amp not sure if I had a 555 or 565 but any way I used it with an Adcom Preamp 655 which was not bad with the by-pass control in place but sadly both expired when we suffered lightning damage many years ago. It was one of those fitand forget amps forme. I could easily live with one for life, I’ve spent far more and gotfar less. They aren’t too pretty on the outside but inside they look like a lot more, if anyone wants a fuss free power amp that will drive most things, I’d point them to a 555.
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Post by alit on Sept 13, 2018 6:50:01 GMT
I only met Denis very briefly at a show. Memories are that he was polite, intelligent and rotund, He was with Max Townshend at the time. Similar stature but very different character. So much larger than life. I had a good few chats with Max as a Rock, Rock Ref and Glastonbury owner. I liked him an awful lot. I’ve helped out my mate Nick (Longdog Audio) a few times at shows- doing one next weekend- and have had the pleasure of Max’s company for a few beers on several occasions. The man is mad as a box of frogs and a great laugh. He’s always coming out with new ideas for hifi stuff, the more beer, the madder they get.. It’s been a real eye opener for me these last few years having got to meet so many people on the trade side, makes you realise this industry is populated wth complete nutters lol.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 13, 2018 7:17:55 GMT
The hifi world would be. A much poorer place without Max.
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Post by nonuffin on Sept 13, 2018 7:47:14 GMT
I could never afford a big US muscle amp even though I lusted after them. Let's not forget the bottom end of the scale either with the likes of Hafler and PS Audio for example. Given that Haflers mostly arrived as a box of bits and an instruction manual to put it together, what transpired wasn't bad sounding at all, unless of course something during the build process went a bit off piste and a nice bang with a puff of smoke was great entertainment.
Talking of bangs, I bought a PS Audio HCA2 power amp off ebay and when I plugged it in that went bang big style because the bastid that sold it to me didn't mention it was a 117 volt version. PS Audio were very helpful by email getting it working again and supplied the parts and instructions for converting it to 240 volts. A few months later one of the channels started dropping out and I sent the PCB over to the States to get it fixed. All they charged me was the return postage. Last year I bought a DAC and the mains transformer died, but PS Audio were totally unhelpful this time around and wanted £200 for a new one plus £120 postage.
Back in the mid 90's I bought an early PS Audio power amp which was rated at 20 watts or so (Class A?), but that was a very sweet sounding amp which I loved the sound of. When I broke up with the bird I was living with, she wouldn't let me have it and sold it for £15 on ebay. Bitch.
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Post by macca on Sept 13, 2018 7:56:30 GMT
£200 not that unreasonable for a new transformer. Did you go for it?
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Post by nonuffin on Sept 13, 2018 10:15:03 GMT
£200 not that unreasonable for a new transformer. Did you go for it? I paid £350 for it and wasn't all that enamoured by it's performance anyway, unlike the old 20 bit DACs they used to make which were awesome. Sold it to a chap in China.
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