Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 18, 2018 21:10:10 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 21:54:27 GMT
I completely understand the VFM thing and yes, I can totally see the appeal in terms of taking as muck work as possible out of building a unit. P2P wiring is hard and a nicely laid out PCB takes all that efforts away. The problem is you end up spending on the time and research it took to design and them for the often, ustom made chassis.
What I expect in that cheaper to make is better parts. High quality Opamps etc but often they are just cheap chips.
I have pics of the guts of the NVA P2 and I looks a bit different to the P1 you have photos to so I presume production has moved on a bit?
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 18, 2018 23:11:13 GMT
Thanks all, It's been said to me that other people's PSUs are deathly quiet too but I can only comment on the ones I got here. My mate said they buzzed at his too and he has a NVA BMU so I am convinced it was the Transformers themselves. If I was in any doubt, I wouldn't have put it in the review. If the buzzing comes and goes then it is DC on the mains... |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 1:53:27 GMT
Not wanting to drift too much, but I do want to show what I was talking about when I questioned the prices being charged for what used to come inside an amp at one time. Here are some pics. Take a look and see if you see decent VFM Below are NVA phono 1 (£300), boards from the same phono stage which are common to Phono 2 (£800 with 2 PSUs) I believe, Lehman black Cube Reference £300 , Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 (£200), Gram Amp 2 Communicator (£180), Rega Fono MM x2 (£200), Rega Aria (£840) and Trichord Dino (£550) William Lisle BowlesI have owned or heard 6 of those. I see the best VFM in the one with high quality, over-spec components and zero dealer margins. It also sounds best, to my ears. However, if you don't like it's looks, or you have problems siting it, or you need the dealer service and a manual, or it doesn't do it for you musically, then you could reach a different conclusion. Everything is a compromise... I don’t see anythjng special at all inside that one. The bridge rectifier, caps and transformer are all straight out of the Rapid catalogue or similar by the looks of it. The fact there’s no dealer margin to account for only makes the VFM look even more dubious to me. Edit. I see Bigman suggests the new version may be different, so I will hold judgement unil I see a current one, but from the pic above, the transformers are a tenner or more depending on size, the bridge rectifier is 73p and the caps are about £1.05 each including. U.K. p&p. That’s around £13 accounted for. I don’t know what the op amps are but there’s precious little else in there to bump up the cost. Hopefully Oliver will provide more up to date pics of the £800 Phono 2. If there are significant increases in cost/VFM I will review my opinion. Links: www.rapidonline.com/dc-components-kbpc3502-35a-200v-bridge-rectifier-mb352-47-3226www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/115-230V-Toroidal-Transformers-Dual-Primary-82719www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4700uF-63V-85oC-Snap-in-electrolytic-capacitors-Qty-6-NEW-SPECIAL-OFFER/112265993191?hash=item1a23931be7%3Ag%3AEM8AAOxyp-BSKbnC&_sacat=0&_nkw=suntan+4700&_from=R40&rt=ncThe only two that look to have anything significant inside are the Rega Aria and the Trichord Dino. Neither convince me they are worth the money being asked though. The Fono MM looks like it’s value should be measured in pence. It’s getting towards build quality of the £5 DAC. I’ve seen as good or better than any of these inside amps and preamps you can pick up for less than the price of the phono stages on offer. There’s an exposure XV On EBay right now for £250 with a phono stage that I would back to beat most if not all of this lot. IMO this is a subject that makers have needed calling on for some time. Crappy little pcbs with little or nothing of value on them, a few stock bits to power it (or even just a wall wart), stick it inside a small tin or plastic box and it’s a few hundred quid: Sometimes even more. If you can buy a beautifully built amp with a phono stage for less, why bother? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 2:46:50 GMT
I completely understand the VFM thing and yes, I can totally see the appeal in terms of taking as muck work as possible out of building a unit. P2P wiring is hard and a nicely laid out PCB takes all that efforts away. The problem is you end up spending on the time and research it took to design and them for the often, ustom made chassis. What I expect in that cheaper to make is better parts. High quality Opamps etc but often they are just cheap chips. I have pics of the guts of the NVA P2 and I looks a bit different to the P1 you have photos to so I presume production has moved on a bit? Just read your post. I missed it earlier, I’d love to see some pics to see if then value of the current one is any different to the one I referred to. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 3:37:25 GMT
so these stages are badly made then ?  i know nothing about electrics but that stage looks like something a 5 year old kid would make |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 3:59:21 GMT
I just don’t see hundreds of pounds worth, and I don’t see anything better than you used to get inside your integrated for no extra money. I’ve jsut been looking at the Linn Urika. It looks like two small boards you’d see inside a computer and it’s £2550! Sure you get an arm cable and an LP12 Trampolinn base included but you could buy both of those off EBay and still have change from £250, let alone £2550. Where’s the extra £2300 worth of value? OK so Linn ownership is pretty much a “cult” these days so anythjng goes. But the lunacy that got us forking out extra for phono stages in the first place is to blame. It came with the excuse that the money could be spent better elsewhere inside an amp now that nobody uses vinyl. Guess what? People are using vinyl again so put the phono stages back in and stop ripping us off with speparate tin/plastic boxes containing next to nothing of value. Only my opinion but I do believe the pics, specs and prices support it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 4:02:33 GMT
but if it sounds good does that matter?
hum would drive me crazy though..set my ocd off big time.. i would buy one if i was looking for a new stage but for one big problem that would not allow me too.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 4:03:05 GMT
so these stages are badly made then ? i know nothing about electrics but that stage looks like something a 5 year old kid would make Some of the phono stages I’ve seen could well be made by 5 year old kids on some sweatshop production line in a third world country. When you look at the state of some of them and you compare to many vintage amp internals it’s laughable. Christmas cracker gift quality.......and not the M&S type either. Surely others must see these things and question the value? I’ve been seen nothing written elsewhere but it’s been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. None of them will be getting a penny of my money. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 4:07:28 GMT
yep same with most stuff today..the chinese have ruined the quality stuff we used to get back in the 70's and 80's
same with kiddies toys..ALL UTTER JUNK TODAY..back in our day the toys were made properly..you seen todays monolopy? it's a joke.
to have high quality uk made stuff you got to pay for it..is rega still made in essex?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 4:13:36 GMT
I’d think so but Dave (DSJR) will know for sure.
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Post by antonio on Jul 19, 2018 4:45:10 GMT
I'm not sure what you're getting at Westie. I'm no techie but the first few photos show £200/300 units. Take into account the boxes, labour, transport, R&D and of course profit for the manufacturer/dealer. You don't get much for £200 now Westie and I'm not talking about hifi.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 7:19:12 GMT
I don’t see anything like a decent amount of material cost in any of them. One is direct sell so I’m not expecting huge margins. It’s £300. I’d expect at least £150 of parts in there. There isn’t. Rega are said to build on a cost x 3 basis. I don’t see £60 worth of parts in the Fono MM. I struggle to see £6. The Slees look inferior to the plug in phono stages in budget amps of yore. A pair of Naim boards stuck in a box and powered up would look ten times better and probably sound that way too. In lots of cases you are paying for casework and power supply Simply because the phono stage is separate. My argument is that they only became separate items because vinyl was supposedly dead. Now that it clearly isn’t, we don’t need to pay for separate cases and in most cases crap or average power supplies. Makers should include a decent switchable or swappable phono stage in their integrated amps. And they should definitely refrain from selling utter tat at hundreds of pounds. I wouldn’t let most of those in my house, let alone have them in my system. Maybe a couple of pics will help. For £250 on the used market you can have either of these. One is a great integrated amp with MM or MC stages that equal,anythjng I’ve used and better most. The other is the best preamp I’ve owned, with a fab MC stage that can be loaded to suit any cart. The build quality in both puts any and every phono stage ibve seen to shame.   |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 7:21:29 GMT
top picture looks cack..tbh as long as it sounds good i dont care..
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 7:39:00 GMT
Only the Aria (just) and the Trichord would ever get near me, but they would need to slash prices massively. I hate tat, irrespective of sound. But then I’m a hifi enthusiast and I get as much from the build and aesthetics as I do the sound. There’s also something I mentioned earlier. If it looks like something cost little to make but is being sold at a high price, I won’t be ripped off and will reject it out of hand. I can’t think of any stand alone phono stage I’ve seen that looks credible at its price point. Others may just care about the sound and I accept that. It won’t stop me shouting out though  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 7:47:09 GMT
i use a trichord dino..never been happy with it..got it cheap in 2004
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 7:55:24 GMT
People say the bigger PSU transforms it. I just think about the big transformers in integrated amps that could feed a phono stage without shelling out for a separate one....and then having to buy a bigger transformer. I use an Iso and I love it, it’s been as good or better than anythjng I’ve tried. Only Perreaux and Exposure have been competitive, I seem to recall you having one and hating it, but that’s hifi for you. We are all different.
If my Campion had included an MC phono stage, i would’ve been delighted to get back to a lower box count,
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Post by antonio on Jul 19, 2018 9:47:12 GMT
£150's worth of parts in a £300 phono. You'd be going bust in a week Westie. Labour, VAT (were applicable), postage/transport have all got to be taken into account. Just ask mrhucker about labour costs.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 13:24:05 GMT
I would say if you paid £250 for a used amp manufactured 30 years ago and factored in inflation v depreciation you might be well overpaying for the product. Also you are ignoring casework which is probably half the component cost plus several hours assembly and testing at least. Then add profit margins as well a 20% VAT which applies to everything except NVA and you can see roughly how they cost so much. Rega and Trichord certainly spend more time on internal cosmetics but you don't see that in normal use. The NVA products do look great on the shelf and feel substantial to handle. A proper toroidal transformer included does rather add to weight and cost (including cost of transport). The Rega Fono you say looks like £6 of components but having an earlier version there is more there I think. The AC plug top PS they supply would likely be around £6 alone. In the end you pay for sound so if a product sounds better than lower priced products people will shell out the extra. Remember boards and the like are usually outsourced so another level of supplier profit there to include in cost. To set up manufacturing of casework and board stuffing involves major investment which has to be recouped. Looking at component costs in a catalogue doesn't give you the answer you are looking for.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 18:46:45 GMT
I use a Michell Iso with a mono cartridge for playing my mono recordings, any who can hear the difference that can be made to mono recordings should give this a try. Anyway I need a bit of help or advice on my Iso which is powered by a wallwart. Does the use of a Hera PSU make a worthwhile difference and does any one know of a decent PSU as an alternative now that the Hera is not available?
Thanks
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Post by dsjr on Aug 9, 2018 19:18:35 GMT
I shouldn't have looked at this thread, but the first pic isn't one of mine, OK?  To sell for £300 TRADE PRICE, the unit has to clear £75 basic - and that's at Rega margins - the terrible two it would have to clear fifty to retail at £500! Not sure of box, packing and carriage (individually) is costed into this. The op-amps used in the one I know aren't as cheap as others either. Point to point wires and modular hand builds do cost more than shoving it all on one board. Stuff from China is pennies and not always with decent components. Now, a snarky? comment was made about power supplies.. We've talked today on another thread about adding transformers, sharing or separate secondary's and so on. I didn't believe putting a bigger supply with extra smoothing would make the differences I heard after trying it and the regulator per channel must help too. Maybe there's a more elegant way of doing it, but in this particular unit, it makes a clearly audible difference even with my stuff... Yes, I know a good used top integrated can be had for not much, but don't confuse USED with NEW in this discussion please, as it muddies the water I think. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 9, 2018 20:04:10 GMT
I use a Michell Iso with a mono cartridge for playing my mono recordings, any who can hear the difference that can be made to mono recordings should give this a try. Anyway I need a bit of help or advice on my Iso which is powered by a wallwart. Does the use of a Hera PSU make a worthwhile difference and does any one know of a decent PSU as an alternative now that the Hera is not available? Thanks Now everyone else will probably tell you otherwise but I had a Hera with my Iso. I thought it made it sound leaden and too “Thumpy”. I sold it on. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 9, 2018 20:12:57 GMT
I guess it’s down to what any individual,will spend. For me, £500 buys you a PS6750 and a very good MC. It buys you a Xerxes RB300 and a cart. It buys you a Mantra with Rega arm and a very good MC. Basically it’s the sort of money I pay firbthe vinyl source. I expect my amp to do the business of phono equalisation. If not, I buy an Iso for £100 or something else that’s good but forgotten.
If you have plenty money, fair enough, but I’d argue you could do better with the money than spend it on a phono stage. Those gargantuan JVC amps that Flatpopely likes come with a reportedly epic phono stage and a decent DAC as well as all the power and features you’d need. You can get one of those used for a few hundred quid. Compared to the tatty little boxes with next to nothing in them that pass as phono stages theses days, I can’t get past the difference in value. But that’s just me.
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Post by antonio on Aug 10, 2018 4:49:28 GMT
I had a Sony ES 770 and a JVC AX441, both with good MC stages, but my NVA wins hands down. I demo'ed the phono 1, phono 2 and the 2 with extra PS, the improvements the power supplies made were more than obvious even to my cloth ears.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 12:10:17 GMT
The only integrated phonostages I've heard that have a hope of competing with stand alone units like the aforementioned and others, are the old Sansui ones in the 919, AU-D11, Au-X1. They are very good indeed.
I'm sure there will be others but I've not heard them. The other limiting factor of integrated amps is you are using the amplification in the unit which may not be as good.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 12:55:20 GMT
I had a Sony ES 770 and a JVC AX441, both with good MC stages, but my NVA wins hands down. I demo'ed the phono 1, phono 2 and the 2 with extra PS, the improvements the power supplies made were more than obvious even to my cloth ears. I still own an AX-A441. It's a damn decent amp and as you say has a good MM/MC phono stage. It's a very rare item in the UK, I've only ever seen one other here. I keep it because I like owning Hi-Fi that nobody else has. Much of my gear is scarce or virtually unobtainable. |
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Post by antonio on Aug 10, 2018 13:12:22 GMT
I preferred the JVC to the Sony and it only cost £45.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 7:11:09 GMT
I used to own a Moth Series 30 phono stage. It was an amazingly musical device. They just never seem to come up for sale these days. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on another.
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