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Post by optical on Dec 7, 2021 10:32:30 GMT
This last week I was afforded the opportunity to demo a potential new preamp for the system.
For logistical reasons (tube availability/cost/wear also) I've been gently nudging my system towards being solid state where possible.
I've always been a tube guy, simply because towards the lower end of the market, to my ears it has always yielded a more 'pleasing' sound. Be that from pre-amp, phono stage, DAC etc.
Most of the SS preamps I have tried just end up giving me less texture, less emotion from the music even though technically (spec-wise) they are miles ahead of their tube counterparts.
So as my equipment approaches something towards the higher levels of what I would call 'mid-fi', I wondered if now would be the right time to re-investigate the old notion that "nothing sounds quite like tubes".
I've successfully managed to swap my tube DAC for an acceptable SS one (more on that another time) and my power amp has been the Neurochrome 686 for a good while now, that hasn't come out since it went in to be fair and I can't imagine anything getting close.
The thing that nits the entire system together, the preamp, was the last piece left using tubes and it is/was doing a damn fine job of still providing the system with the nuance and texture I am so used to, having used tubes for the majority of my hifi life now.
Or so I thought . . .
Enter the BT2 prototype kindly lent to me by Oli.
Plugged it in. Hmmmm . . . . that sounds different. Passages untangled; sub bass became multiple notes instead of all being mashed together into one sound. It's wider, it's got scale and new levels of dynamics. Basically, it has allowed me to hear what my old tube pre-amps were doing. Don't get me wrong there is still 'something' about the tube preamp that adds a rich harmonic texture to some notes and instruments but I suspect this is a colouration from the tube/circuit.
The separation and detail within the wider soundstage is unequivocal, no need to swap back and forth, the difference is immediate and ultimately just impressive. The nuance and texture is still there but not in the same highlighted way that my tube preamp provides. I suspect what I'm hearing from the BT2 is a less distorted signal with less artifacts from the circuit being introduced. An old cliche but it really is as if it isn't there at all, nothing added, nothing taken away more importantly.
My setup is a complicated one, with active Martin Logan speakers and a pair of subs setup in stereo. I have obviously optimised this setup to run in harmony with the tube preamp as the crossovers of both the speakers and the subs can be adjusted to suit. I didn't need to play around with them to know that in a fully optimised setup (it takes days sometimes) that the BT2 would have the chance to shine even more brightly. An exciting prospect but ultimately one I would have to wait for until I commission my own BT2 build which will be going full speed ahead in due course.
Although I have written down all the settings and positioning of the speakers/subs etc, I still didn't want to mess with the settings so I could just swap my tube pre back in as I am now returning the BT2. I also didn't actually want to get too used to the sound with the BT2 in as I always knew I would have to return it sooner than I could receive my own, so that thinking also played a part there.
I still love my tube pre-amp but it's audibly inferior in this company.
As I say, I enjoy what the tube preamp does but the BT2 has really shown me exactly what a preamp should and indeed what it should not be doing to the signal.
For the meantime I'll be holding onto the tube preamp anyway (even if a BT2 happens to turn up!) as it has a very basic Alps volume pot and crappy terminals etc so the scope for upgrading is certainly there. To be fair I also don't find it off-putting listening to it straight after the BT2 even though the difference in performance is audible. I think that's a heavy compliment to both to be honest and I'm a happy man listening to either, it's just I will look forward to the soundstage stretching about 8 foot either side of both speakers when another BT2 makes it's way here at some point . . . .
Big thumbs up to all involved with the BT2 design, once again it's going to ruffle a few feathers I suspect.
For the record and an accurate comparison, my valve preamp is a Musical Paradise MP-701 MKII - Odam caps - NOS RCA 6SN7 tubes
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Post by firebottle on Dec 7, 2021 10:49:23 GMT
Good write up Chris. I can't remember when you last came to mine but I have had my build of the BT2 in the system for some time, so you may have heard it before.
Small caveat: my build uses a different stepped attenuator, the Acoustic Dimension, plus I have inferior connectors to Oli's build.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 7, 2021 10:51:11 GMT
This last week I was afforded the opportunity to demo a potential new preamp for the system. For logistical reasons (tube availability/cost/wear also) I've been gently nudging my system towards being solid state where possible. I've always been a tube guy, simply because towards the lower end of the market, to my ears it has always yielded a more 'pleasing' sound. Be that from pre-amp, phono stage, DAC etc. Most of the SS preamps I have tried just end up giving me less texture, less emotion from the music even though technically (spec-wise) they are miles ahead of their tube counterparts. So as my equipment approaches something towards the higher levels of what I would call 'mid-fi', I wondered if now would be the right time to re-investigate the old notion that "nothing sounds quite like tubes". I've successfully managed to swap my tube DAC for an acceptable SS one (more on that another time) and my power amp has been the Neurochrome 686 for a good while now, that hasn't come out since it went in to be fair and I can't imagine anything getting close. The thing that nits the entire system together, the preamp, was the last piece left using tubes and it is/was doing a damn fine job of still providing the system with the nuance and texture I am so used to, having used tubes for the majority of my hifi life now. Or so I thought . . . Enter the BT2 prototype kindly lent to me by Oli. Plugged it in. Hmmmm . . . . that sounds different. Passages untangled; sub bass became multiple notes instead of all being mashed together into one sound. It's wider, it's got scale and new levels of dynamics. Basically, it has allowed me to hear what my old tube pre-amps were doing. Don't get me wrong there is still 'something' about the tube preamp that adds a rich harmonic texture to some notes and instruments but I suspect this is a colouration from the tube/circuit. The separation and detail within the wider soundstage is unequivocal, no need to swap back and forth, the difference is immediate and ultimately just impressive. The nuance and texture is still there but not in the same highlighted way that my tube preamp provides. I suspect what I'm hearing from the BT2 is a less distorted signal with less artifacts from the circuit being introduced. An old cliche but it really is as if it isn't there at all, nothing added, nothing taken away more importantly. My setup is a complicated one, with active Martin Logan speakers and a pair of subs setup in stereo. I have obviously optimised this setup to run in harmony with the tube preamp as the crossovers of both the speakers and the subs can be adjusted to suit. I didn't need to play around with them to know that in a fully optimised setup (it takes days sometimes) that the BT2 would have the chance to shine even more brightly. An exciting prospect but ultimately one I would have to wait for until I commission my own BT2 build which will be going full speed ahead in due course. Although I have written down all the settings and positioning of the speakers/subs etc, I still didn't want to mess with the settings so I could just swap my tube pre back in as I am now returning the BT2. I also didn't actually want to get too used to the sound with the BT2 in as I always knew I would have to return it sooner than I could receive my own, so that thinking also played a part there. I still love my tube pre-amp but it's audibly inferior in this company. As I say, I enjoy what the tube preamp does but the BT2 has really shown me exactly what a preamp should and indeed what it should not be doing to the signal. For the meantime I'll be holding onto the tube preamp anyway (even if a BT2 happens to turn up!) as it has a very basic Alps volume pot and crappy terminals etc so the scope for upgrading is certainly there. To be fair I also don't find it off-putting listening to it straight after the BT2 even though the difference in performance is audible. I think that's a heavy compliment to both to be honest and I'm a happy man listening to either, it's just I will look forward to the soundstage stretching about 8 foot either side of both speakers when another BT2 makes it's way here at some point . . . . Big thumbs up to all involved with the BT2 design, once again it's going to ruffle a few feathers I suspect. Thanks for this Chris. I appreciate you taking the time to write up your thoughts. As you know, I have been into valves since my HiFi journey started, and I can't go back to them now. Your valve pre must be very pleasurable. Glad you enjoyed it 😊
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optical
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Post by optical on Dec 7, 2021 11:03:56 GMT
Good write up Chris. I can't remember when you last came to mine but I have had my build of the BT2 in the system for some time, so you may have heard it before. Small caveat: my build uses a different stepped attenuator, the Acoustic Dimension, plus I have inferior connectors to Oli's build. I'm not sure if it was there when I picked up my 300B amp Alan. I think you'd just bought the Soekris 1321 so that might put a date on it? Either way it's a revelation but also served to highlight that my tube pre is not a million miles behind . . . . maybe a mere 500,000 . . . haha. Yes I have reserved one of Oli's remote attenuators as I just cannot live without a remote! . . . . Awful at my age isn't it . . .
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Post by mikeyb on Dec 7, 2021 11:15:59 GMT
Bugger!
I knew I shouldn't have read this thread 😂
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optical
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Post by optical on Dec 7, 2021 11:18:26 GMT
Bugger! I knew I shouldn't have read this thread 😂 To be fair no one should ever read any threads written by me, please keep that in mind for the future . . . .
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Post by mikeyb on Dec 7, 2021 11:19:47 GMT
Bugger! I knew I shouldn't have read this thread 😂 To be fair no one should ever read any threads written by me, please keep that in mind for the future . . . . That's you on the ignore list now 😂😂
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 7, 2021 11:20:52 GMT
Good write up Chris. I can't remember when you last came to mine but I have had my build of the BT2 in the system for some time, so you may have heard it before. Small caveat: my build uses a different stepped attenuator, the Acoustic Dimension, plus I have inferior connectors to Oli's build. I'm not sure if it was there when I picked up my 300B amp Alan. I think you'd just bought the Soekris 1321 so that might put a date on it? Either way it's a revelation but also served to highlight that my tube pre is not a million miles behind . . . . maybe a mere 500,000 . . . haha. Yes I have reserved one of Oli's remote attenuators as I just cannot live without a remote! . . . . Awful at my age isn't it . . . It may have been there but Alan's system would have been unfamiliar. Always best to try at home.
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 7, 2021 11:21:43 GMT
Bugger! I knew I shouldn't have read this thread 😂 👋
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 7, 2021 11:55:53 GMT
What is your (previous) favourite preamp, optical? — or did I miss that in the review?
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Post by optical on Dec 7, 2021 12:02:12 GMT
What is your (previous) favourite preamp, optical? — or did I miss that in the review? Yeah sorry Jerry - I actually just updated it as obviously that's quite useful information. It's a Musical Paradise MP-701 mkII with upgraded Odam caps and NOS RCA 6SN7 valves. In standard form it's not much to write home about but changing the tubes and caps has a significant effect. Also changed the power bypass caps which changed the 'flavour' again. One is a Mundorf Supreme and one is an Audyn True Copper Max. All in all it's probably 1k in original cost and upgrades.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 7, 2021 12:23:26 GMT
What is your (previous) favourite preamp, optical? — or did I miss that in the review? Yeah sorry Jerry - I actually just updated it as obviously that's quite useful information. It's a Musical Paradise MP-701 mkII with upgraded Odam caps and NOS RCA 6SN7 valves. In standard form it's not much to write home about but changing the tubes and caps has a significant effect. Also changed the power bypass caps which changed the 'flavour' again. One is a Mundorf Supreme and one is an Audyn True Copper Max. All in all it's probably 1k in original cost and upgrades. Oh, so it's not that far off a BT2 cost! Obviously the motor version is a little more.
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Post by optical on Dec 7, 2021 12:31:51 GMT
Yeah sorry Jerry - I actually just updated it as obviously that's quite useful information. It's a Musical Paradise MP-701 mkII with upgraded Odam caps and NOS RCA 6SN7 valves. In standard form it's not much to write home about but changing the tubes and caps has a significant effect. Also changed the power bypass caps which changed the 'flavour' again. One is a Mundorf Supreme and one is an Audyn True Copper Max. All in all it's probably 1k in original cost and upgrades. Oh, so it's not that far off a BT2 cost! Obviously the motor version is a little more. No, not with the upgrades it isn't (which it certainly needs in my opinion). For the money spent on it I am still more than happy with the sound but I guess that also highlights that the BT2 represents solid value without skimping out on pots/connections etc.
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 7, 2021 12:35:04 GMT
Oh, so it's not that far off a BT2 cost! Obviously the motor version is a little more. No, not with the upgrades it isn't (which it certainly needs in my opinion). For the money spent on it I am still more than happy with the sound but I guess that also highlights that the BT2 represents solid value without skimping out on pots/connections etc. Well, you could have done A LOT worse for your £1k. There's no doubt about that. Yeah, the BT2 represents what we try to achieve very well. Top quality performance with well made, hand selected parts, but without all the price inflating nonsense that goes on.
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Post by lurch on Dec 7, 2021 12:48:30 GMT
Chris, I know where your coming from as your comments about what the BT2 did in relation to your MP pre are pretty much the same as what I heard when I put the MFA Baby Reference V1 in my rig having run a MasterSounD PHL5 for 3 1/2 years. The PHL5 I always thought was superb, easily matching an ARC SP26 and a few others of a similar level brought to my BOs. I look forward to auditioning it against my MFA, though will get the BBu audition out of the way first courtesy of Barrington (last week of December).
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 7, 2021 12:53:57 GMT
OK, thanks, nice review.
I'm sure the BT2 is ExtraSuperDuper (no, really, no sarcasm intended) but I've recently found the same sort of upgrade/change with the preamp section of my new-to-me Ayre integrated amp (which is basically a simple resistor ladder thing).
I had been totally in love with my valve preamps (Concordant Exhilarant and cj pv7) but using them with the Ayre in HT bypass mode (so just as a power amp) has shown them to be just that important bit less transparent and resolved.
There is a musical magic to the valve preamps, but I guess I'm about 80/20 in favour of the Ayre preamp section as of now. Dang.
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Post by optical on Dec 7, 2021 13:00:41 GMT
OK, thanks, nice review. I'm sure the BT2 is ExtraSuperDuper (no, really, no sarcasm intended) but I've recently found the same sort of upgrade/change with the preamp section of my new-to-me Ayre integrated amp (which is basically a simple resistor ladder thing). I had been totally in love with my valve preamps (Concordant Exhilarant and cj pv7) but using them with the Ayre in HT bypass mode (so just as a power amp) has shown them to be just that important bit less transparent and resolved. There is a musical magic to the valve preamps, but I guess I'm about 80/20 in favour of the Ayre preamp section as of now. Dang. I'm being swayed that way myself a bit Jerry . . . . Given what I have now heard, it's fair to say I have not heard any 'proper' SS designs (often incorporating proper resistor ladders/attenuators etc). Valve musicality with SS reliability and usability, yes please.
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Post by optical on Dec 7, 2021 14:55:10 GMT
Chris, I know where your coming from as your comments about what the BT2 did in relation to your MP pre are pretty much the same as what I heard when I put the MFA Baby Reference V1 in my rig having run a MasterSounD PHL5 for 3 1/2 years. The PHL5 I always thought was superb, easily matching an ARC SP26 and a few others of a similar level brought to my BOs. I look forward to auditioning it against my MFA, though will get the BBu audition out of the way first courtesy of Barrington (last week of December). Nice, going to be a merry season for you by the sounds of it. BBu and a BT2 . . . I can only imagine . . .
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Post by firebottle on Dec 7, 2021 15:36:20 GMT
BBu and a BT2 . . . I can only imagine . . . Sublime Chris.. There is a growing number that have heard it, I'm waiting for mayebazza to air his impressions.
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Post by lurch on Dec 7, 2021 17:44:05 GMT
BBu and a BT2 . . . I can only imagine . . . Sublime Chris.. There is a growing number that have heard it, I'm waiting for mayebazza to air his impressions. Judging by his comments to me, I think he's still waiting for his stiffy to subside so he can get close enough to a keyboard to type 🤣🤣🤣
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 7, 2021 17:55:50 GMT
Sublime Chris.. There is a growing number that have heard it, I'm waiting for mayebazza to air his impressions. Judging by his comments to me, I think he's still waiting for his stiffy to subside so he can get close enough to a keyboard to type 🤣🤣🤣 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Post by antonio on Dec 8, 2021 0:52:53 GMT
Great write up Chris, I thought you had a great pre-amp in the Paradise, so this BT2 must be really something, it appears the terrible twosome have done it again.
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Post by optical on Dec 8, 2021 8:01:06 GMT
Great write up Chris, I thought you had a great pre-amp in the Paradise, so this BT2 must be really something, it appears the terrible twosome have done it again. Yup, their dastardly plan to provide high end sound for close to build cost is in full swing . . . . But yeah, it's a level or two up. Not to say the MP isn't a lovely listen in its current guise though.
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 9, 2021 14:33:33 GMT
Great write up Chris, I thought you had a great pre-amp in the Paradise, so this BT2 must be really something, it appears the terrible twosome have done it again. Yes, Angus an I are very pleased with it 😉
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