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Nov 29, 2021 11:48:55 GMT
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Post by lurch on Nov 29, 2021 11:48:55 GMT
If someone gave it to you free folks are always offering me free £26k tonearms, I just keep saying "nah, I'll stick with me Audiomods" Until you have heard this Wave Kinetics I honestly cannot believe you are saying, "it cannot be much better than a Techie", especially with the arguments you have put up on other threads. Maybe this is the one that gets you as close to cd as you can get. There is a limitation to how much can be done with turntables, and it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it, physics does not bend under the weight of cash. The SP10 MK2/3, Denon DP80 and Kenwood/Trio one are as close to perfect as possible. The SP10 R is by all accounts a little better on measurements, but not in other areas like repairability. If I won the lottery, it would be an SP10R in a panzer plinth, with Angus's MK8b arm. That would be me happy forever ....... Pretty much as happy as I am now with the SP10 mk2 We'll be able to put that assertion to the test at that AA BO when I bring my Bardo along for a day out. High torque low mass techie Vs low Torque high mass Bardo.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 29, 2021 11:54:49 GMT
There is a limitation to how much can be done with turntables, and it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it, physics does not bend under the weight of cash. The SP10 MK2/3, Denon DP80 and Kenwood/Trio one are as close to perfect as possible. The SP10 R is by all accounts a little better on measurements, but not in other areas like repairability. If I won the lottery, it would be an SP10R in a panzer plinth, with Angus's MK8b arm. That would be me happy forever ....... Pretty much as happy as I am now with the SP10 mk2 We'll be able to put that assertion to the test at that AA BO when I bring my Bardo along for a day out. High torque low mass techie Vs low Torque high mass Bardo. Absolutely! I look forward to having a listen to it.
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WOW
Nov 29, 2021 13:29:38 GMT
Post by robbiegong on Nov 29, 2021 13:29:38 GMT
If I saw one in someones system i'd probably like it and if it sounded great too, ten even better.
Given the choice, money, build, reliability, usability, sound (or lack of more to the point), and from my own experience, I'd stick with what I have SP10 Mk2 in Panzerholz plinth, (love this turntable to bits), or the SP10R
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WOW
Nov 29, 2021 14:36:31 GMT
Post by antonio on Nov 29, 2021 14:36:31 GMT
Materials and components may we'll have moved on, but your missing one vital point here ....... The materials are pointless if the engineering is Sh#t. There is an undoubtable and also completely mythical connection between price and performance in the audiophile phycology, and it's bollocks. It's fixed there firmly because people do not know, or understand the basic principles that matter in engineering these devices. This is evident when when I see turntables on glass shelves with spikes on and some half-wit saying "I have decoupled this turntable with spikes machined from unicorns hoof, that cost me $4.5m" The golden age of vinyl yielded the best TTs because the research and development arms of Technics, Denon and Kenwood had unimaginable wealth to spend on developing the very best motors etc. These "Hi-End" charlatans are usually just selling (usually) very expensive bling with the cache of being out of the range of mere mortals. I'm not saying this one is crap BTW, just that I highly doubt it will be any better in Wow/flutter or speed accuracy than a well sorted SP10 MK2 or above. If it is, it certainly isn't worth the spend. There are very few, if any turntable that has made significant, or even marginal advancement over the SP10 MK2. Calm down, calm down, I'll assume this post is aimed at me, so firstly it goes without saying that if the design is 'sh#t it does not matter what materials are used. The 'Golden Age' of tt's as you put it, company's were spending thousands on R&D to get ahead of each other, but today you can see what they did for free, so that must be one helluva cost saving. Then of course a good designer can implement his own improvements using better materials and now how, the same as car manufacturing has moved on, those old uns may give you that nostalgic feel, but they wouldn't pass todays safety tests. Why are you referring to these newer tt's manufacturers as 'charlatans', I'm sure one or two are, but that is for the individual to decide when he goes to purchase his new tt, there may have been one or two back in the day. Do you really think this turntable is made by a bunch of 'charlatans' Derek Jenkins sadly missed.
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Deleted
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Nov 29, 2021 14:48:13 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2021 14:48:13 GMT
To me (not a TT expert) that seems like a product engineered to address a problem that does not exist. Two platters? Surely, I can place a record on a platter?
I can’t see the benefit of a counter-rotating mass, even at the heady speed of 78rpm.
I am sure it sounds good, but most of that probably comes from the isolation more than anything else.
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Nov 29, 2021 14:52:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2021 14:52:45 GMT
Just watched the video again. The counter rotating mass creates a stall point so that the player can’t twist? Is it made out of chocolate? Will it twist under normal use without the counter rotating mass?
Of course it won’t. It is driven by an elastic band on a low torque motor.
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WOW
Nov 29, 2021 16:17:51 GMT
Post by macca on Nov 29, 2021 16:17:51 GMT
The problem is not that the design of expensive turntables is Sh#t (although it is on plenty of them) but that the medium is so flawed that it doesn't matter how good you make the TT it can never overcome the baked in problems.
Even back in the 50s and 60s the sensible enthusiasts knew that which is why they used reel to reel as their showpiece source (if they could afford it). My generation had a choice of compact cassette or vinyl, not a tough decision if you cared about sound quality (although only because the record companies used the cheapest possible crappy tapes for their releases).
If they had put them all out on metal tape then it might have been different. But then most of us wouldn't have been able to afford tape decks that could do them justice anyway.
TT design was over by 1980. High end turntables are now just about paying silly money based on marketing.
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Bigman80
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Nov 29, 2021 17:51:10 GMT
Post by Bigman80 on Nov 29, 2021 17:51:10 GMT
antonio "Calm down, calm down, I'll assume this post is aimed at me, so firstly it goes without saying that if the design is 'sh#t it does not matter what materials are used. The 'Golden Age' of tt's as you put it, company's were spending thousands on R&D to get ahead of each other, but today you can see what they did for free, so that must be one helluva cost saving. Then of course a good designer can implement his own improvements using better materials and now how, the same as car manufacturing has moved on, those old uns may give you that nostalgic feel, but they wouldn't pass todays safety tests.Why are you referring to these newer tt's manufacturers as 'charlatans', I'm sure one or two are, but that is for the individual to decide when he goes to purchase his new tt, there may have been one or two back in the day" What makes you say that? I have never seen a TT from Technics, Sony, Denon or Kenwood/Trio that wouldn't pass safety tests? No, I am not labelling all modern day manufacturers of turntables as Charlatans, but the fact remains the same. I mean look at these figures from the Trio: Wow and flutter: less than 0.02% WRMS, Signal to noise ratio: more than -94dB! Where's my f@cking cheque book!!!!......but wait.... Now, take the SNR figure of -94db as a reference point from the Trio......Even the best phonostages out there do not achieve anything over -80db SNR (unweighted) in MC, so the difference is eaten up by the phonostage performance. So you're paying £50k+ for a blingy TT with WoW and Flutter thats is no better than a 40 year old Trio, and if there IS any improvement to the SNR performance over Trio L-07D, it is completely lost in the phonostage. So you tell me.....is it worth spending £50k on a blingy turntable? I absolutely do not believe it is. However, all that said....this bag of Sh#t/flawed medium is still knocking spots of a Holo Spring 3, a Soekris 1421 and any Digital i have heard.
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WOW
Nov 29, 2021 18:22:06 GMT
Post by macca on Nov 29, 2021 18:22:06 GMT
the vinyl disc itself has at best SNR of 75dB, that's your first limitation right there.
It would be pointless to have a phono stage with more than 80dB SNR
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 29, 2021 18:47:45 GMT
the vinyl disc itself has at best SNR of 75dB, that's your first limitation right there. It would be pointless to have a phono stage with more than 80dB SNR You'd be surprised how many phonostages are below -75db SNR. I was just keeping the example simple. But yes, once you hit the noise floor of the vinyl, everything else is pointless. Thankfully, I don't have to worry about phonostage performance issues 😉
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Post by sq225917 on Nov 29, 2021 20:39:42 GMT
Noise and distortion is all additive, a -75db deck through a -75db phonostage doesn't give you -75db. the noise would double. you absolutely do want the noise added by the phonostage to be as low as possible.
A -75db deck into phono, pre and power amps all at-75 would End up about-66db.
That's why every stage should be better than the limits of hearing.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 29, 2021 20:59:57 GMT
Noise and distortion is all additive, a -75db deck through a -75db phonostage doesn't give you -75db. the noise would double. you absolutely do want the noise added by the phonostage to be as low as possible. A -75db deck into phono, pre and power amps all at-75 would End up about-66db. That's why every stage should be better than the limits of hearing. I agree, but many aren't.
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Nov 29, 2021 21:02:18 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2021 21:02:18 GMT
antonio "Calm down, calm down, I'll assume this post is aimed at me, so firstly it goes without saying that if the design is 'sh#t it does not matter what materials are used. The 'Golden Age' of tt's as you put it, company's were spending thousands on R&D to get ahead of each other, but today you can see what they did for free, so that must be one helluva cost saving. Then of course a good designer can implement his own improvements using better materials and now how, the same as car manufacturing has moved on, those old uns may give you that nostalgic feel, but they wouldn't pass todays safety tests.Why are you referring to these newer tt's manufacturers as 'charlatans', I'm sure one or two are, but that is for the individual to decide when he goes to purchase his new tt, there may have been one or two back in the day" What makes you say that? I have never seen a TT from Technics, Sony, Denon or Kenwood/Trio that wouldn't pass safety tests? I think you missed the bit about car manufacturing.
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 29, 2021 22:30:57 GMT
antonio "Calm down, calm down, I'll assume this post is aimed at me, so firstly it goes without saying that if the design is 'sh#t it does not matter what materials are used. The 'Golden Age' of tt's as you put it, company's were spending thousands on R&D to get ahead of each other, but today you can see what they did for free, so that must be one helluva cost saving. Then of course a good designer can implement his own improvements using better materials and now how, the same as car manufacturing has moved on, those old uns may give you that nostalgic feel, but they wouldn't pass todays safety tests.Why are you referring to these newer tt's manufacturers as 'charlatans', I'm sure one or two are, but that is for the individual to decide when he goes to purchase his new tt, there may have been one or two back in the day" What makes you say that? I have never seen a TT from Technics, Sony, Denon or Kenwood/Trio that wouldn't pass safety tests? I think you missed the bit about car manufacturing. I may have done. Was on the train to be fair.
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Post by antonio on Nov 30, 2021 0:06:16 GMT
You missed my point regarding car manufacturing, it was an example of how things have moved on in the last 40/50 yrs. Like I said previously, I only posted the tt because I liked the look of it and thought you vinyl junkies might feel the same. Here's one thread you vinyl die hard's shouldn't read, especially if you believe in blind testing pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/elite-audio-showroom-event-27th-nov.261764/
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WOW
Nov 30, 2021 1:37:06 GMT
Post by antonio on Nov 30, 2021 1:37:06 GMT
Let's be honest at £200 digital transports are done. You need to spend a lot more to get to the same level of diminishing returns on a TT. I'd suggest the sp10R is probably as close to measured perfection as any deck and more cash doest assure better performance, far from it there's loads of flawed 20k decks. Seriously Si, £200 and your done for a cdt, next you'll be telling us you can't hear a difference between streamers
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WOW
Nov 30, 2021 21:57:58 GMT
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antonio likes this
Post by sq225917 on Nov 30, 2021 21:57:58 GMT
You know I can't...
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Post by macca on Dec 1, 2021 7:58:29 GMT
You missed my point regarding car manufacturing, it was an example of how things have moved on in the last 40/50 yrs. Like I said previously, I only posted the tt because I liked the look of it and thought you vinyl junkies might feel the same. Here's one thread you vinyl die hard's shouldn't read, especially if you believe in blind testing pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/elite-audio-showroom-event-27th-nov.261764/interesting that, especially that they thought the CD player was the R2R. I have noticed on my system that CDs of analogue recordings sound like it's reel to reel machine playing them - which is essentially what it should sound like since the transfers were almost certainly done using a top shag Otari or Studer.
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