|
Post by lurch on Dec 27, 2021 18:59:30 GMT
Kit list was: Brinkmann Bardo/12"Enterprise Mk4/Koetsu RSP MFA Baby Reference passive JW KT88 /Arcam Alpha 8P ML Summits IC:Audioplan Musicable SC: Chord Signature Various branded kettle leads. Power Inspired 1500S power regen.
|
|
|
Post by karma67 on Dec 27, 2021 18:59:31 GMT
yup have to agree john the new phono stage had more presence than the BB3 and wilder soundstage,weird stuff going on with my amp as its absolutely fine here so who knows?? the triple c interconnects had some new fans! all in all a good day and thanks for the valves.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,135
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 27, 2021 19:09:53 GMT
Sometimes you get an anomaly when putting things in and out of other people's systems, and I can only think that something has not worked together.
In a bid to make sense of what happened, I've extended an invite to a little session here.
If there's a compatibility issue with something like a TVA, we need to know!
Shame it hasn't gone well.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,135
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 27, 2021 19:10:52 GMT
yup have to agree john the new phono stage had more presence than the BB3 and wilder soundstage,weird stuff going on with my amp as its absolutely fine here so who knows?? the triple c interconnects had some new fans! all in all a good day and thanks for the valves.
Yeah, great cables those. All thanks to JohnG. I'll put a BYO (Build your own) sticky up at some point.
|
|
|
Post by lurch on Dec 27, 2021 19:12:02 GMT
Will bring the MFA & the Lector
|
|
|
Post by karma67 on Dec 27, 2021 19:14:05 GMT
Sometimes you get an anomaly when putting things in and out of other people's systems, and I can only think that something has not worked together. In a bid to make sense of what happened, I've extended an invite to a little session here. If there's a compatibility issue with something like a TVA, we need to know! Shame it hasn't gone well. TVA?
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,135
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 27, 2021 19:14:38 GMT
Sometimes you get an anomaly when putting things in and out of other people's systems, and I can only think that something has not worked together. In a bid to make sense of what happened, I've extended an invite to a little session here. If there's a compatibility issue with something like a TVA, we need to know! Shame it hasn't gone well. TVA?
TVC...... I'm gonna smash this phone up
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Dec 27, 2021 19:24:55 GMT
Very good that you heard some promise today lads.
As we know the BB3 has taken on all comers but to appreciate the extra performance of the BBu takes commensurate quality throughout the replay chain.
It's a real shame that wasn't the case with your main amps out of the system today, but the time will come.
|
|
|
Post by gninnam on Dec 27, 2021 21:39:28 GMT
Thanks for the write up and a bit disappointed that the results were not night and day but as you go up the ladder we know this is the case, plus as has been mentioned many times, system synergy !!
|
|
|
Post by robbiegong on Dec 27, 2021 22:15:33 GMT
Thanks for the write up and a bit disappointed that the results were not night and day but as you go up the ladder we know this is the case, plus as has been mentioned many times, system synergy !! Amen ! also way too many variables in hifi done like this
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,135
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 27, 2021 22:30:44 GMT
Thanks for the write up and a bit disappointed that the results were not night and day but as you go up the ladder we know this is the case, plus as has been mentioned many times, system synergy !! The difference in performance between the BB3 and BBu is not at the point of diminishing returns, trust me. I've spent more time than anyone evaluating the BB3, and from the moment I put the BBu in, It was obvious that I making a significant step up in my analogue replay. I said to lurch that his report on the day was akin to someone telling me they had irrefutable evidence that the earth was flat. It is just totally bewildering Synergy is such a bitch at times. Hopefully though, we can do a BB3 vs BBU comparison at my place and at least demonstrate why I'm so stunned about today. Maybe we can figure out what went wrong today too.
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Dec 28, 2021 0:51:27 GMT
I don't think anything went 'wrong', after all it did improve upon the BB3, not as much as hoped for but John's system was on the injury list and a sub had to be brought on. When the Icon's return and maybe a little experimentation with cables ect all will be well. Hope you had a great day all those who attended, would have liked to have been there myself, not only for the dem, but to have met you troublesome lot.
|
|
|
Post by karma67 on Dec 28, 2021 5:18:20 GMT
Thanks for the write up and a bit disappointed that the results were not night and day but as you go up the ladder we know this is the case, plus as has been mentioned many times, system synergy !! The difference in performance between the BB3 and BBu is not at the point of diminishing returns, trust me. I've spent more time than anyone evaluating the BB3, and from the moment I put the BBu in, It was obvious that I making a significant step up in my analogue replay. I said to lurch that his report on the day was akin to someone telling me they had irrefutable evidence that the earth was flat. It is just totally bewildering Synergy is such a bitch at times. Hopefully though, we can do a BB3 vs BBU comparison at my place and at least demonstrate why I'm so stunned about today. Maybe we can figure out what went wrong today too. it might be worth giving barrington a call and just check its still ok in his system.
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Dec 28, 2021 7:49:57 GMT
It's not back in his system yet,later this morning I expect.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,135
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 28, 2021 9:35:09 GMT
The difference in performance between the BB3 and BBu is not at the point of diminishing returns, trust me. I've spent more time than anyone evaluating the BB3, and from the moment I put the BBu in, It was obvious that I making a significant step up in my analogue replay. I said to lurch that his report on the day was akin to someone telling me they had irrefutable evidence that the earth was flat. It is just totally bewildering Synergy is such a bitch at times. Hopefully though, we can do a BB3 vs BBU comparison at my place and at least demonstrate why I'm so stunned about today. Maybe we can figure out what went wrong today too. it might be worth giving barrington a call and just check its still ok in his system.
Yes, that will happen. 100%
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 28, 2021 10:27:24 GMT
ML Summits that's the problem - need an amp with current drive, Arcam won't cut it and I suspect the John Wood being a valve amp had some compatibility issues. With a difficult speaker like the ML results with valve amps will be unpredictable. Some will gel, some won't. Impedance matching. No big mystery.
|
|
|
Post by karma67 on Dec 28, 2021 10:42:01 GMT
ML Summits that's the problem - need an amp with current drive, Arcam won't cut it and I suspect the John Wood being a valve amp had some compatibility issues. With a difficult speaker like the ML results with valve amps will be unpredictable. Some will gel, some won't. Impedance matching. No big mystery. you may have it there macca,we used the 4ohm tap on my amp too if that makes it worse??
|
|
|
Post by mayebaza on Dec 28, 2021 11:09:44 GMT
Just set up the phonostage back home. Despite it spending the night on back seat of my car. Initial findings Phonostage nothing aronious to report. One thing is instantly noticeable than yesterdays performance at Lurch's is the significancantly quieter noise floor. Me thinks it does not like Kohetsu? 🤔
|
|
|
Post by karma67 on Dec 28, 2021 11:13:01 GMT
thats good news mate.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 28, 2021 11:15:19 GMT
No with Martin Logans I'd have thought the 4 ohm tap would be the best option. But any amp with output transformers is going to give unpredictable results with a speaker that doesn't have a fairly flat or gentle impedance curve. The resulting frequency response can end up all over the place. And the Arcam will struggle with the low impedance and the phase angles the ML presents it with, you'll lose some bass and get early roll-off in the higher frequencies.
|
|
|
Post by jandl100 on Dec 28, 2021 11:17:03 GMT
Yes, macca's right, the Summits are a b'stard of a load. From an Alvin Gold review... "There is a caveat here. The Summit could never be accused of being an easy load. Sensitivity is 92dB/W/m, which implies that not much power is required, and nominal impedance is 4 Ohms, but at high frequencies the impedance curve drops down to 0.7 Ohms".... ", you should be willing to purchase amplification that can handle their very challenging load requirements."
Not only needing loadsa current to drive them properly, but the frequency response is going to be swinging wildly with the wrong impedance matching.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,135
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 28, 2021 11:24:14 GMT
Just set up the phonostage back home. Despite it spending the night on back seat of my car. Initial findings Phonostage nothing aronious to report. One thing is instantly noticeable than yesterdays performance at Lurch's is the significancantly quieter noise floor. Me thinks it does not like Kohetsu? 🤔 Is it as you expected it to be in your system? The noise floor issue is very interesting..... What speakers are you using, Barrington? I believe the MLs are 92db sensitivity, my Q Acoustics are 90db......but I have absolutely no noise at all, until the volume control is almost on max. lurch has a TVC so noise floor should be totally irrelevant, so preamp noise could be ruled out.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,135
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 28, 2021 11:36:02 GMT
Yes, macca's right, the Summits are a b'stard of a load. From an Alvin Gold review... "There is a caveat here. The Summit could never be accused of being an easy load. Sensitivity is 92dB/W/m, which implies that not much power is required, and nominal impedance is 4 Ohms, but at high frequencies the impedance curve drops down to 0.7 Ohms".... ", you should be willing to purchase amplification that can handle their very challenging load requirements." Not only needing loadsa current to drive them properly, but the frequency response is going to be swinging wildly with the wrong impedance matching. This would work: www.hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/156973-plinius-sa100-mk-3-power-amp-class-a-and-ab/&share_tid=156973&share_fid=1467220&share_type=t&link_source=app
|
|
|
Post by mayebaza on Dec 28, 2021 11:42:10 GMT
My speakers are Usher X718 87db sensativity. The noise I am referring to is arising from the record surface rather than elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Dec 28, 2021 11:50:26 GMT
Different stylus profile?
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,135
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 28, 2021 12:08:18 GMT
My speakers are Usher X718 87db sensativity. The noise I am referring to is arising from the record surface rather than elsewhere. Ah ok. Groove noise was greater with the Koetsu...ok. I thought you meant the Phonostage noise lol....paranoia setting in
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 28, 2021 12:11:52 GMT
Different stylus profile? I was thinking that. Taking for granted that it's the exact same record that is being compared. Plus Usher are very good speakers but I'd expect a quality electrostatic like the MLs to make surface noise more obvious than any cone in box speaker. That's why people buy them, because they want that 'jaw dropping transparency.' But the flipside is you need to feed them a perfect signal or any flaws will just be made more obvious.
|
|
|
Post by lurch on Dec 28, 2021 13:18:42 GMT
I must admit I am surprised how well the 8P works with the Summits, though I did buy it because it was able to work with 4 Ohm speakers (checked speaker Ohm ability before buying as a previous amp didn't like the 989s). The 8P is 50wpc 8 or 4 Ohm. Also 8 Ohm tap on the Icons sounded shite hence why I was going to move them on but then tried them on the 4 and all was good. The Nords I have out on loan (400/8 700/4 & 550/2) where also very good, infact I couldn't decide between either the Nords or Icons in the end as Icons were wonderfully rich sounding with great Mids and bass whereas the Nords were a tad brighter and cleaner with more detail. Might end up selling all 3 amp choices and then maybe go for something likea Krell ksa100 but have never heard a krell.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,135
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 28, 2021 13:24:21 GMT
I must admit I am surprised how well the 8P works with the Summits, though I did buy it because it was able to work with 4 Ohm speakers (checked speaker Ohm ability before buying as a previous amp didn't like the 989s). The 8P is 50wpc 8 or 4 Ohm. Also 8 Ohm tap on the Icons sounded shite hence why I was going to move them on but then tried them on the 4 and all was good. The Nords I have out on loan (400/8 700/4 & 550/2) where also very good, infact I couldn't decide between either the Nords or Icons in the end as Icons were wonderfully rich sounding with great Mids and bass whereas the Nords were a tad brighter and cleaner with more detail. Might end up selling all 3 amp choices and then maybe go for something likea Krell ksa100 but have never heard a krell. Don't buy a KSA100. Lovely amp, but it does impose itself on the sound. As in, everything starts to sound the same. Still wonderfully enjoyable, but a world class amp shouldn't do that IMO. Sell all three amps and get a Neurochrome 686....I know, I'm boring. Hard to recommend anything else though. I'm gonna have to start building these aren't i. Lol
|
|
|
Post by lurch on Dec 28, 2021 13:35:07 GMT
Yep, where I'm concerned you are. Loading plugs are where my electronics skills start and end. Whatever I end up with, it will have to be black.
|
|