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Post by dsjr on Jul 10, 2018 18:19:05 GMT
Maybe not a fully appropriate thread title, but picking up a comment by Macca in the bake-off thread.
My quick tuppence worth -
Sources - the cheapo Chinese DAC ain't bad with standard 5V wall-wart but comes into its own with a forty quid (bought) power supply - total around £50. transport or other digital music source obviously would cost extra
Vinyl's much harder, so I'll stick with a Rega Planar 1 Plus for £329 including phono stage. Stylus can be updated later (Thakker EPO-E) and better support if interested, but it works well as supplied.
Amps - I HAVE to say an NVA P20/A20 as a 'system' with cables supplied. Total no brainer in comparison with shop bought competition. I did admire the basic Cambridge cheapo amps, but they may be too tame and weak for serious music listening (I've never used one at home).
Speakers? - I love my JBL Control Ones (£79 from Richer Sounds). Current model and cheap parts are available if you know where to go (caraudioparts.co.uk are official harman spares agents with amazing service and great pricing way under eBay sellers). Clear and no harshness, but some may fond them too bass-shy. For £300, the NVA Cubettes may strike a huge chord if you like the presentation and musical insight and basic clarity are not at all in question for a starter speaker...
Cables - loads of half decent wires to choose from online at great prices, just don't buy from a dealer!
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Post by macca on Jul 10, 2018 19:03:32 GMT
I'd go second hand all the way. You're on a budget so I wouldn't waste it buying new - although granted the direct seller stuff and Richer Sounds own brands are sort of occupying a tempting ground between second hand and the level of pricing you find in the 'proper' dealerships.
There are people who would never buy second hand, I know. Pal of mine is like that. Knows he is spending more than he has to, doesn't care, it has to be new. That's fair enough.
One of the best budget systems I have heard was KEF Coda III into a late 'Seventies Rotel, just a small integrated, and a Technics portable CD player, admittedly it was their top of the line one with the metal case. A great sound. But insight into the recording? Not a massive amount.
If you want to hear the layering of the backing vocals and all that, you have to step it up a bit. I think most enthusiasts and even audiophiles are not bothered about that. Their looking for the emotional connection, they don't want it to sound like a recording of a cello, no matter how impressive that can be, they want the cellist 'in the room'. Accurate to them is a little boring and 'soul-less'.
But it is a sliding scale. I've heard a couple of systems that have ruthless accuracy to the recording and whilst it is impressive, stunning even, I had to ask myself if that is what I want when I get in from work and just want it to wash over me. The answers no. So I slide back a bit towards the 'music' side. But not too much. Too much and no matter what music you play, from any era, it all has the same 'character'. The colouration in the equipment that helps it sound so good also masks the differences in the recordings.
So I'd say if you are on a budget and you want a system that will groove but will also give you a bit of the mixing and mastering engineers view, and you are buying used, it could be done for £1500.
It's the amplification that will be the expensive bit. And a digital source. If you want to do it with vinyl that will cost more.
The Technics SP10 I heard this weekend could do it, as have some heavily modded SL1210s I have heard. Lesser decks like the budget Regas will give you a glimpse of what is possible if all the planets are in alignment. But you really need a direct drive. Have heard a Garrard 401 that could do it too, and a Lenco GL75 but they were both massively pimped.
And for digital you can't just buy any old tat. You need to get bang for your buck. It's a tough racket this hi-fi game.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 10, 2018 19:32:04 GMT
Have you lived with the cheap Chinese dac-for-a-fiver? No output chip so output is lower than the usual 2V or more. A touch less expansive when wall-wart driven, but stick a decent 5V supply on it and I swear you can seemingly hear right through it and never feel short-changed. The last few workroom CD sessions I've had I completely forgot the CD player was playing through it... The PC plays through a supposedly better dac and with a TIS interconnect to boot.
I deliberately wanted to keep this thread to new gear. Not so many people can make informed choices on used gear unless they've swapped a load of boxes...
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Post by macca on Jul 10, 2018 19:45:41 GMT
I don't know anything about new gear!
Not had the fiver DAC but did have a Xiang Sheng on loan for a bit. I think they are about a ton new off of ebay. It was pretty good. But then the CD transport does matter too. Or the server-file-thingy, or whatever you are using to feed bits to it.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 10, 2018 20:59:48 GMT
Hard one. Like Macca I don’t know a lot about new gear. I’d second your amp reccy though. I can’t think of anything else new that would be likely to get close.
CD players might be a tough one due to their decline. I wouldn’t touch that £5 Dac with a barge pole though. It’s a horrible little lump of shoddy looking tat which would never cross my threshold. Just buy a 1 box player and save the indignity of having it sat in your room. If it’s for streaming or playing from a laptop, I’d rather put money Arcam’s way.
Vinyl would probably be a Rega for me too, as long as the Planar one is a real improvent over the P1: The platter on the latter was a step too far downmarket for me and the QA was not acceptable with many faulty ones (platter wobble). Mine also had bits in the paint finish. As the alternative is Project, who’s excited low end decks don’t cut it for me, I’d have to stick with Rega.
Speakers? Not a clue but I think Control 1s are horrible so not for me. I took a set on loan years ago and they lasted about 2 mins. Far too small sounding to have any purpose for me and also sounded likem2 separate boxes with no projection or real sounstage. I have no idea what else would work. I tried Diamonds about 2 years ago and they just weren’t good enough, I lack any experience or knowledge to suggest anything else.
Like Macca, I wouldn’t touch new. You can have a sound ten times better buying used and you can also stay tat-free.
Used, it would be Rega 2, Rega Planet, Creek 4040, Elas. Under £500 the lot inc cart.
If Elas aren’t your thing, MA 252 or 352, Tannoy Mercury Mk2, JPW P1, Arcam 2, Gale 301, Mission 700LE or dozens of other 80s boxes would do a good job. Don’t like Rega? Try a Revolver. Creek not your bag? Cambridge P40 or P55, or even an A60. different CD? Pick up a budget 80s or 90s Denon.
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 10, 2018 22:20:24 GMT
The kids and I can sing our hearts out in the car to High School Musical, Steeleye Span and 'Fox On The Run' by Manfred Mann. Youngest daughter dances in her room to Heart FM on a SMSLQ5 and a pair of old Mission 70Mk2. I can play air guitar to Stiff Little Fingers in the back room with a set of £30 PC speakers while playing table tennis with 'the lads'. Between 'free' and £100.
When I sit down to 'critical' listening...can it make the hairs on my arms and neck stand up within a few bars? Can it make me reach for the whisky? Can it make me cry? Some £20k systems can't do that...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 22:57:59 GMT
I'd not consider new equipment.
Used? Pioneer PD-S505 Precision CD player (or, if you can find one NAD 524), My usual recommendation of cheap good amp, Denon PME-350SE and Mission 780SE for speakers (or for a touch more Usher S520).
If records are to be played, a Pioneer PL-12D (dead reliable and sound perfectly OK for under £100). I've not tried cheap MM phono stages for years, but for the money the Cambridge Audio 540P works well enough, or if a bit more is spent, a Bellari VP129 (if you can find one). It's a cracking little unit!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 11, 2018 8:15:47 GMT
The kids and I can sing our hearts out in the car to High School Musical, Steeleye Span and 'Fox On The Run' by Manfred Mann. Youngest daughter dances in her room to Heart FM on a SMSLQ5 and a pair of old Mission 70Mk2. I can play air guitar to Stiff Little Fingers in the back room with a set of £30 PC speakers while playing table tennis with 'the lads'. Between 'free' and £100. When I sit down to 'critical' listening...can it make the hairs on my arms and neck stand up within a few bars? Can it make me reach for the whisky? Can it make me cry? Some £20k systems can't do that... One great thing about forums is that you get to find out there’s more to people than the images you form about them from what they write about hifi. I’d always imagined you to be a single guy. I probably formed that idea from seeing your listening room and sub consciously thinking it looked like it was all yours. |
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 11, 2018 8:36:43 GMT
The kids and I can sing our hearts out in the car to High School Musical, Steeleye Span and 'Fox On The Run' by Manfred Mann. Youngest daughter dances in her room to Heart FM on a SMSLQ5 and a pair of old Mission 70Mk2. I can play air guitar to Stiff Little Fingers in the back room with a set of £30 PC speakers while playing table tennis with 'the lads'. Between 'free' and £100. When I sit down to 'critical' listening...can it make the hairs on my arms and neck stand up within a few bars? Can it make me reach for the whisky? Can it make me cry? Some £20k systems can't do that... One great thing about forums is that you get to find out there’s more to people than the images you form about them from what they write about hifi. I’d always imagined you to be a single guy. I probably formed that idea from seeing your listening room and sub consciously thinking it looked like it was all yours. My place is pretty much my own...my current partner has her own place. I have 'collected' 5 children; 3 boys and 2 girls. The eldest 3 claim to be grown up. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 11, 2018 8:37:34 GMT
Hard one. Like Macca I don’t know a lot about new gear. I’d second your amp reccy though. I can’t think of anything else new that would be likely to get close. CD players might be a tough one due to their decline. I wouldn’t touch that £5 Dac with a barge pole though. It’s a horrible little lump of shoddy looking tat which would never cross my threshold. Just buy a 1 box player and save the indignity of having it sat in your room. If it’s for streaming or playing from a laptop, I’d rather put money Arcam’s way. Speakers? Not a clue but I think Control 1s are horrible so not for me. I took a set on loan years ago and they lasted about 2 mins. Far too small sounding to have any purpose for me and also sounded likem2 separate boxes with no projection or real sounstage. I have no idea what else would work. I tried Diamonds about 2 years ago and they just weren’t good enough, I lack any experience or knowledge to suggest anything else. Like Macca, I wouldn’t touch new. You can have a sound ten times better buying used and you can also stay tat-free. Used, it would be Rega 2, Rega Planet, Creek 4040, Elas. Under £500 the lot inc cart. If Elas aren’t your thing, MA 252 or 352, Tannoy Mercury Mk2, JPW P1, Arcam 2, Gale 301, Mission 700LE or dozens of other 80s boxes would do a good job. Don’t like Rega? Try a Revolver. Creek not your bag? Cambridge P40 or P55, or even an A60. different CD? Pick up a budget 80s or 90s Denon. You wouldn't touch Control Ones yet you choose a thirty plus year old bass-light screamer instead? Ela's have no bass below 80Hz and that Scan squeaker should have been buried in the early 80's  it got worse too with the more sculpted fronts of the last Ela 1's. We were having funky fun with Jura's by this time, the mk1's anyway...
That Chinese dac will be forever off your list then westie. You'll never then realise just how far cheaper digital has come and how a little box like that can be fitted 'round the back' and completely forgotten about. Why do you think I baulk at some of these confections costing thousands, when the actual part that matters isn't so different in the heart of the lavish box and over stuffed circuit board?
A lot of 80's boxes may well need refoaming on the bass units and tweeters may be knackered by too much amp clipping. They were built cheap and are ancient now. That's why I asked about NEW cheaper gear. maybe some of us including me need to visit Richer Sounds (in Brighton it's thriving, where Audio T down the road is mostly empty and a pal in Southampton confirmed the Richer there is busy and just round the corner, Sevenoaks recently folded and Phase Three closed years ago).
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 11, 2018 9:51:10 GMT
I’d love to do a bake off with my choice of used kit against anything new at twice the price. I’m certain it would be a walkover. I’ve heard Elas produce fabulous perceived bass. I used my KSA50 with them and it was stunning, we’ll never agree on tweeter performance because we have different ears. Lots of speaker designers used the Scanspeak D2008 and lots of buyers ran thise speakers and loved them. By your reckoning they’d all be deaf  I accept that some old speakers will need reforming but it’s a simple DIY job and cheap with lots of good videos on the net. Also not likely to be needed with rubber surrounds, which are in the majority. Damaged tweeters due to sustained amp clipping isn’t something I’ve come across in literally hundreds of used purchspases, so highly unlikely I feel. I do visit Richer Sounds when I’m in the U.K., My best mate works there. Anything speaker wise from £50 to £200 looks and feels the same to me. The size and construction doesn’t suggest I’m missing anything, speakers are one area where size and build very often dictate performance. As for the £5 DAC, I admit to bias. I just couldn’t live with it and having it in my system would spoil my ability to enjoy music. But we also differ on DACs. You like things like the Digit whilst I find it not worth listening to. If that was my only DAC, I’d switch the hifi off, and yes I’ve had a twin Positron version. Still unlistenable. Shut in, muffled and vague to me. Asking what is the minimum you can get by with from new kit is a valid and laudable topic, but I don’t think you can avoid the suggestions that choosing new is a mugs game and will result in a sound that is exponentially inferior to what you can get used, cost you more dosh and give you inferior build too. If you’re new to hifi, I’d still say you’re more likely to get better results buying used, even if you know little about what you’re buying. At least you won’t suffer 50% depreciation and more if you decide to change. |
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 11, 2018 10:02:12 GMT
I’d love to do a bake off with my choice of used kit against anything new at twice the price. I’m certain it would be a walkover. Would love to hear that, Westie...that could be a lot of fun. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 11, 2018 10:19:09 GMT
I’d love to do a bake off with my choice of used kit against anything new at twice the price. I’m certain it would be a walkover. Would love to hear that, Westie...that could be a lot of fun. It really would be a great one to do. The most likely way this happens is for a magazine to do it but then nobody else gets to witness it. Used hifi is just incredible value when you consider lots of it sells for a tiny fraction of its 1980s value. Speakers are especially good value used IMO. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 11, 2018 10:45:40 GMT
I'm always going to have a down on that ghastly small dome ScanSpeak tweeter as used by Linn and almost murdered by Naim and Rega. It has a severe resonance at 9kHz which I used to hear as chrome plated string tone or splashy cymbals in the passive speakers it was used in. Even the ferro-fluid ones with soft front plate trim as used by Spendor and pro-Ac used to 'whistle.' maybe I couldn't hear it so much now with age and tired ears, but thirty years ago it annoyed me. Elas and Kans in the right room had good mid bass, but the breathy stuff I miss so much now was beyond them. if you ever see some, the tall Naos were rather better than all the others and the tight bass did go down further, although up top the usual issues prevailed with the wrong partnering gear. The last slant-front Elas had different bass drivers I believe and whatever thery'd done, it was to make them spiteful and unpleasant to listen through. The conventional looking ELA 2 was better, but sounded small in a way the Jura didn't! ear;ly Juras merely needing half a bath sponge shoved sideways in the port (you see a pattern there Paul?) to sound crisp but hugely entertaining. Jura 2's more than 'fixed' the bass but began to scream if pushed (far too bright a balance I remember) and we ceased selling them I recall. OK, Control Ones are written off here as a serious speaker (I still admire the Kan-bass and lovely clear mids though) and in a PM just now I remembered Q Acoustics. Their current babies are reportedly excellent (I haven't heard them) and if so, £150pr are worth considering. Please chaps, put yourselves into the mindset of a young music lover with a desire for great sound at a price and no knowledge of 'High Fidelity' gear going back forty years or more or the requirements of service and updates (hell, a PL12-D turntable was seizing up after fifteen years, let alone 45 years now and even my beloved Duals and selected Garrard auto decks need a lot of work on them to bring them back up...). Not all of us have enthusiast dads, uncles or online pals who have been through the mill you know
P.S. I sold many a Creek 4040 at the time, but not sure if it would be good today or even working unless serviced. Cap coupled outputs giving zero bass control and a closed in sound?
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Post by antonio on Jul 11, 2018 11:15:34 GMT
Without sounding like I'm waving me willy, I have long moved on from the very cheap brands, but if I had to start looking my first port of call would be one of them SMSL Q5's, Marantz cdp, speakers, without ever hearing, those JBL Control 1's recommended by dsjr.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 11, 2018 11:17:39 GMT
I think it may just be a bit too hard for me to make that leap Believe me, I’ve tried but it’s kinda like asking me to choose between whatever teen shows they watch today.....the answer being “please God, none!” Maybe some less “died in the wool” enthusiasts can have a better stab than me, but I will have a go again with the caveat that I’m basing this on little experience. Deck: Minimum I’d really settle for would be a Rega 3 (£579) Cart: Sumiko Pearl (£100) Amp: NVA A20 and P20 would seem obvious but no phono stage, so I go Cyrus One (£699) instead. I’ve seen, heard and used it so at least I know it isn’t a dud. CD Player. Arcam CDS27 on offer at Richer for £369 and also streams. Speakers: Kralk Audio TDB2 £185 upwards That’s almost £2k. A used Rega 3 with a decent MM can be had under £300. Or buy one ex cart for £200 and add a new Sumiko? £50 For a Creek £150 for a Planet £50 for a pair of JPW P1 or £65 for some 352s, probably with stands. £550 for a system I’d still expect to win in a shoot out. I’ve had a few 4040s in the last 5 years. All have sounded as good as ever. They seem pretty bulletproof. I could honestly live with one for the rest of my days and sometimes they go for under £50. BTW typical of our different hearing, the Ela 2 just leave me cold. The Rega-made bass unit wasn’t a patch on the Royd one for me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 13:01:16 GMT
You won't get far looking in Richer Sounds for new kit that makes great music. Better to stick with modern bargains like the NVAs and those Kralks. Unless you want valves. Plenty of Chinese stuff around on EBay. Dynavox VR-70e is a goodie. For a deck I might try a Funk Gett but I would need to see it in the flesh to be sure it wasn't going to fall apart. For a CD player I would plump for an end of line Oppo if I was buying new. None of those would be a simple case of walking into Richer Sounds. They would take some seeking out and a bit of risk. It may be easier and take less knowledge to buy used.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 13:13:19 GMT
I just re read the title. How low can you go buying new before losing the music?
The answer in pound notes is "nowhere near as low as you can go when buying used".
The answer in build quality is "don't even try. Buy something decently made. It will reward you with better sound and reliability".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 13:43:19 GMT
Looks are very important too, ugly hifi sounds crap whilst beautiful hifi sounds ace.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 14:00:28 GMT
Looks are very important too, ugly hifi sounds crap whilst beautiful hifi sounds ace. Don't be daft! S. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 14:15:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 14:16:52 GMT
If does affect the way people hear, I reckon. Question is how much? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 15:21:45 GMT
Ask a blind man.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 11, 2018 15:32:17 GMT
Shane, you asked a question about Harbeths recently the designer/owner of the company is absolutely dedicated and single minded on so much to do with his speaker designs you can't really argue or even discuss possibly conflicting views. To him, a capacitor is a capacitor as long as it's specified to the job, although he's minimised and I believe removed electrolytics from his modern speaker crossovers. 2017 was the company's fortieth anniversay so something had to be done, so they blinged up most of their range, charging hundreds more per pair (WBT sockets on the back, possibly different cables maybe thicker, different blingy trims on the tweeters, odd veneers and Harbeth labelled poly caps in the crossovers (as Spendor already do) to replace what I remember being versions of 'orange drop' film caps - if I have the description wrong, they are usually rectangular orange coloured blobby things with a perpendicular wire at each end)). Customers went ape-Sh#t over them and the company can't keep up, making many more batches than they thought they would originally - also claims for improved sound quality as well. This completely non-plussed the designer, whom not once claimed any difference - all on their user group forum if anyone wants to look and trawl back... Thing is, people are asking if their non-anniversary ones can be updated and they're just as keen on the bling (the existing heavy gold plated sockets are excellent but lack a designer name) than the caps which may well make a small improvement! Appearance is everything sadly - look at an earlier comment about the 'crap looking' £5 dac which I think sounds really good if properly supplied. Stick it in a better case with switchable inputs and so on and it would sell for Beresford money (£200 or so?) and I bet it wouldn't be much worse if at all... |
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 11, 2018 15:38:24 GMT
Appearance is everything sadly - look at an earlier comment about the 'crap looking' £5 dac which I think sounds really good if properly supplied. Stick it in a better case with switchable inputs and so on and it would sell for Beresford money (£200 or so?) and I bet it wouldn't be much worse if at all... I concur with DSJR re the £5 dac with £40 LPS. Stone cold bargain... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 16:55:44 GMT
The blind man would obviously run his hands over said hifi just as he would run his hands over an ugly woman and a beautiful woman..Obviously he would pick the good looking kit. 😁 |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 11, 2018 17:17:36 GMT
The blind man would obviously run his hands over said hifi just as he would run his hands over an ugly woman and a beautiful woman..Obviously he would pick the good looking kit. 😁 I bet I could pick a Leben out blindfolded just by running my fingers over it. Seriously though,,it does appear clear re are varying degrees of interest in looks/build..Also varying opinions on how much it affects perception. What about Dave’s OP though? Anyone else care to throw some suggestions in for new kit that would deliver at the lowest price point. I like the Oppo suggestion. I didn’t think of it before but I’d go with that for a new system over the Arcam I suggested, Edit: Without wanting to copy Audionut outright, I’d probably change my new TT suggestion to the Funk Gett too. Just more innovative and ultimately more interesting than a Rega. |
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it got worse too with the more sculpted fronts of the last Ela 1's. We were having funky fun with Jura's by this time, the mk1's anyway...
