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Post by macca on Jul 14, 2021 11:56:03 GMT
Balanced mains unit tested on ASR. Not cheap either $4700. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/equitech-1-5rq-balanced-power-review.24948/Predictably it does absolutely nothing. This bloke explains why www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/equitech-1-5rq-balanced-power-review.24948/page-3''This device is sold for use in professional sound recording applications, and its use case is simple. It entire job is to help manage grounding issues. No claim is made about magic clean power. Everything is directed at building an installation where common grounding problems can be eliminated. This isn't a trivial installation, and is well beyond any domestic application. Amir's tests exactly match what is expected of the device. No snake-oil or woo. But in domestic settings the device has no role, and marketing it into one is both a violation of safety codes, and won't do anything that the device is intended to help.
The entire idea is to allow the creation of an isolated power run that is referenced to a "technical ground". Basically this is a new proper ground that bonds the system ground to a new externally created ground (you get to drive rods into the earth) that is otherwise separate to ground that the rest of the building's power is bonded to. After that, everything connected to the balanced power is grounded to the technical ground.'' |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 14, 2021 14:05:28 GMT
I've got 4 mains gadgets here:
1: Tacima Filtered Mains block
2: Wireworld 6 Start Wired mains block
3: Wickes Extension lead
4: DIY BMU with Mains Filter.
All of my gear has Schaffner RFI/EMI IEC Inlets.
All of the above are altering the sound. So much so that I would absolutely expect the most sceptical amongst us to sit hear and point out the effect they have when plugged in.
Which one I prefer? Jury is out, but just the fact they all have an influence Vs each other means it's no longer a subject I can overlook.
I wish it was BTW.
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Post by macca on Jul 14, 2021 15:08:31 GMT
But you can see from that test that the BMU is not doing anything, it's not lowering noise or reducing distortion. As explained that's not even the purpose of it.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 14, 2021 15:21:08 GMT
But you can see from that test that the BMU is not doing anything, it's not lowering noise or reducing distortion. As explained that's not even the purpose of it. I don't dispute the findings on ASR, but i'm telling you mate, it's so obvious, even blind you would have to acknowledge that there is something happening to the sound when i swap them round. It's absolutely not imaginary either. It's more likely to be something to do with the filter in the BMU and Tacima that is making this happen, but it is happening. For instance, i have to put the bungs back in the speaker with the Wireworld 6....the bass is hugely different. |
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Post by macca on Jul 14, 2021 15:39:30 GMT
The Wireworld is just a mains block?
You plug your power amp direct into the wall though?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 14, 2021 16:02:06 GMT
The Wireworld is just a mains block? You plug your power amp direct into the wall though? Yup......I was on the phone with Angus yesterday and neither of of have a legitimate idea as to how or why this is happening. That's part of the reason I have dodged mains for all of this time. It seems it makes no sense |
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Post by macca on Jul 14, 2021 16:24:22 GMT
when I tried balanced mains I got a weird echo effect on the bass. That makes it sound bad, it wasn't, but it was certainly different sound to how it was without the BMU. Otherwise I heard no improvements so sent it back.
Weirdly some time later at a bake-off someone (might have been Ali) brought along a BMU and it was introduced into whatever lash-up was going on at the time. I again heard that echo effect in the bass, but of about ten people, no-one else did, which tells you something about the vagaries of our perception if nothing else.
A few people said they thought they heard an improvement in SQ. I didn't.
However after a couple of minutes of music I could no longer hear the echo effect. Still didn't sound better in any obvious way to me though. So who knows what was going on there?
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Post by electronumpty on Jul 14, 2021 16:25:56 GMT
The Wireworld is just a mains block? You plug your power amp direct into the wall though? Yup......I was on the phone with Angus yesterday and neither of of have a legitimate idea as to how or why this is happening. That's part of the reason I have dodged mains for all of this time. It seems it makes no sense Seems like there is no universal solution to this as every system seems to have different mains supply problems. Then each system is different in kit and set up and the interface with the electrical gods brings a myriad of variables with it. I don't worry about that meself. Just plug it all in to 1 wall socket and pin the lug holes back. 🦻🦻🦻 |
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 14, 2021 17:47:49 GMT
Another example where Amir's testing regime completely ignores the intended use of an item and he tests it in an instalation that bears no resemblance to how its meant to be used and then he proclaims his result as being universally applicable.
He did exactly the same testing Stax headphone driver/ amps into a resistive load at levels above the point at which your ears would be bleeding and the extrapolated that into them no good for better than 40db of snr.
And no matter what is said he'll never correct himself. I can think of at least four times this has happened.
If you want to see what balanced mains does you need gear with good old fashioned linear psu's in them and you have to plug the whole replay chain in. Sending test tones to a class d amp from an AP doesn't cut it. You need a system that suffers from the fault the device is intended to correct to test whether it corrects the fault.
You don't test the cure for cancer by giving it to someone without cancer.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 14, 2021 18:00:11 GMT
Another example where Amir's testing regime completely ignores the intended use of an item and he tests it in an instalation that bears no resemblance to how its meant to be used and then he proclaims his result as being universally applicable. He did exactly the same testing Stax headphone driver/ amps into a resistive load at levels above the point at which your ears would be bleeding and the extrapolated that into them no good for better than 40db of snr. And no matter what is said he'll never correct himself. I can think of at least four times this has happened. If you want to see what balanced mains does you need gear with good old fashioned linear psu's in them and you have to plug the whole replay chain in. Sending test tones to a class d amp from an AP doesn't cut it. You need a system that suffers from the fault the device is intended to correct to test whether it corrects the fault. You don't test the cure for cancer by giving it to someone without cancer. Yup  |
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Post by misterc on Jul 14, 2021 18:42:03 GMT
Ok amir is he actually all there?? does he fully understand that a you will need to look outside an Audio Analyser and require a genuine power analyser so you can FULLY 'SEE' what the APX555 is missing as in above 20Khz lol. Its intersting even the DIY community find him a one sided audio bigot with a HUGE agenda. That exact BP box is the one I was talking about the other day on Oli's thread, it works without question a deaf, dumb blind tree sloth could indentify a clear difference between using one and not, the guy is just making himself look even more skewed than normal.
If anyone wishes to have theirs measured with the correct equipment while powering your own system I am happy to do this F.O.C.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 14, 2021 19:00:33 GMT
Ok amir is he actually all there?? does he fully understand that a you will need to look out an Audio Analyser and require a genuine power analyser so you can FULLY 'SEE' what the APX555 is missing as in above 20Khz lol. Its intersting even the DIY community find him a one side audio bigot with a HUGE agenda. That exact BP box is the one I was talking about the other day on Oli's thread, it works without question a deaf, dumb blind tree sloth could indentify a clear difference between using one and not, the guy is just making himself look even more skewed than normal.
If anyone wishes to have theirs measured with the current equipment while powering your own system I am happy to do this F.O.C.
I'd love to know what's happening with mine T. Just doesn't sound "right" now? |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 14, 2021 20:26:19 GMT
I'm experimenting as I realised my DACs PSU hasn't got a filter. It's instantly affected the bass. It's not cut it, or restricted the depth as I can hear all the same notes, but it's now a lot tighter and cleaner. I suspect this may be why they all sounded different? I'm going to fit a filter inside the 686 when Angus and I take it apart to fit some bespoke speaker protection and som very nice input and output wiring.  |
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Post by misterc on Jul 14, 2021 22:14:47 GMT
Having a quality correctly designed full ac filter is great starting point. That LKS dac that amir felt was world class was one of the most aggressive and hard sounds I have listened even rivealed the skull crushing ear abuse of T+A and Naim despite having a CE sticker lol
It took around 15 hours of designing an AC filters, clock issues shielding, power supply corrections, screening, rail decoupling. The result was a very positive and much more listenable and enjoyable Real world is not about lets fix the latest piece of audio to deliver the empourors new clothes its turning into a virtual review by graphs total and utter bullcrap.
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Post by macca on Jul 15, 2021 6:00:35 GMT
I did include a quote in my o/p from a very experienced engineer which explains the correct use for balanced mains.
To sum it up just putting one into your domestic system and plugging in your amp does nothing, it does not reduce distortion or noise in the slightest since it is not intended to do that. This is what Amir's measurements show.
They are designed for professional applications to be used in conjunction with a technical earth to eliminate ground loops which can occur when you have banks of equipment spread across multiple rooms and you're making recordings to a professional standard.
Not an issue with a typical domestic playback system where you just have source, amp and speakers. In that situation it is completely superfluous.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 15, 2021 12:00:04 GMT
Done a bit more experimentation today and the filter has made all the difference with the Wireworld 6 block.
Also just realised that the N15D has no filter either, so i am now looking at moving this on for something more in line with my neurotic demands as i dont think there is enough room to fit one inside, although i will check first.
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Post by misterc on Jul 15, 2021 15:24:10 GMT
The basic physics behind BP is very sound, some filtering of common mode and differential mode noise, GND has no offset or current flow or DC offset (so no buzzing Tx), add in the additional earth loop issues removed, presents a very low impedance source .................... and it is a low pass filter, so to say it is not a filter is missing the point. But it IS all about the transformer you use.
We use a custom built 20Kv unit for one of our recording studios it really does help no end without question at all (Single phase 240vac), I would further suggest that a goodily number of tradition studio's use this particular method of of mains noise rejection.
To really understand what the BP unit is genuinely doing, you would need to set up a two channel power analyser to look at the incoming power at the point of entry of the BP and the secod channel at the exit point while the audio system is actually running.
Similar to this configuration here we are finial testing of full a/c filtering section.
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Post by macca on Jul 15, 2021 15:33:51 GMT
Wouldn't a better method would be to measure the output to the speakers, with and without? That's the bit we are actually listening to.
What's happening just before and just after the BMU is irrelevant, lots of things happen to the electricity after that.
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Post by misterc on Jul 15, 2021 15:39:32 GMT
Wouldn't a better method would be to measure the output to the speakers, with and without? That's the bit we are actually listening to. What's happening just before and just after the BMU is irrelevant, lots of things happen to the electricity after that. Going to disagree on this one 200% Martin the unit needs to be under load to fully observe the effects it produces plus you need to measure both I + V also you would require a quality high voltage differentical probe one with a very high CMRR and a grain accuracy at least 1% or better.
Other than remember the old addage shite in<>shite out.
If you look at the scope screen you can clearly see the difference between filtered and unfiltered AC, note efficiency improves with load. BP goes some way to reduce some of this with other benfits as well.
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Post by macca on Jul 15, 2021 16:00:34 GMT
The unit would be under load, you won't be able to measure output at the amplifier if the power is switched off.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 15, 2021 16:25:56 GMT
The unit would be under load, you won't be able to measure output at the amplifier if the power is switched off. You'd get the effect of the Amplifiers circuit on the AC. I presume you'd be better off measuring directly after the BMU etc. |
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Post by misterc on Jul 15, 2021 16:32:32 GMT
The unit would be under load, you won't be able to measure output at the amplifier if the power is switched off. Hi Martin I am talking the complete load not just an amplifier, but the whole system as different audio components require differernt types and styles of filtration for low and high level devices all of which can intereact with each other via the following methods:
Now, there are four different types of coupling mechanisms. You have conducted coupling, which is going to be directly through a wire. You're going to have electrical coupling, which is also known as capacitive coupling. That's pretty much where you're in close proximity to something and you have an electrical field that's causing the coupling.
You have magnetic coupling from a magnetic field. And then also, in far field, then you start to get radiated coupling. And all of those coupling mechanisms allow the noise from your system to go onto the susceptible system. And that's what we're trying to prevent.
All of these pathways are throughly tested and refined to enable rthe dvices to function with the minium of interference and passing CE/FC & UKCA testing
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Post by macca on Jul 15, 2021 17:15:06 GMT
That's all vert well but if all this doesn't actually improve the signal coming out of the amplifier then it's a waste of time, money and effort.
We can measure at the amplifier output to see that, as Amir did, and found no change.
Or we can do a blind test with and without and see if anyone can consistently tell if the BMU is in circuit or not.
They are the only two tests that are relevant to our one concern which is better sound quality. If messing with the AC doesn't alter that then there's no point in bothering.
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 15, 2021 18:34:00 GMT
Amir just powered the ncore amp via the bmu, and measuring a class d amp with an audio precision requires using one of the class d HF filters.
You need the whole kit and caboodle plugged into it, but im in agreement, you should see a difference on the amp output vs without the bmu.
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Post by alit on Jul 17, 2021 6:07:58 GMT
20kva??
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Post by misterc on Jul 17, 2021 7:19:39 GMT
Yes Ali, The studio is fed with both single and three phase and has around 45 electrical devices it has too supply and using Nyquists rules of two to one head room we wind our transformers hence why some that scale is not a problem. The only issue is the weight of the thing  |
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optical
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Post by optical on Jul 17, 2021 7:25:53 GMT
Yes Ali, The studio is fed with both single and three phase and has around 45 electrical devices it has too supply and using Nyquists rules of two to one head room we wind our transformers hence why some that scale is not a problem. The only issue is the weight of the thing Have you applied for a permit for your own substation?! That is some juice |
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Post by alit on Jul 17, 2021 7:52:16 GMT
That’s not going to be very portable lol.
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Post by misterc on Jul 17, 2021 8:00:43 GMT
That’s not going to be very portable lol. From memory the 10kva versions are around 100kg, we did use a pump truck to manoeuvre the lump onto position. They key to not causing the mcb to trip is a well thought out soft start! |
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Post by alit on Jul 17, 2021 10:37:57 GMT
Yes I’m sure, my 3kva was bad enough.
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