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Post by brucew268 on Jul 6, 2021 11:20:16 GMT
Yesterday, I was asked for an opinion on conductor materials.
The question was "You're not a fan of Rhodium plated plugs, why not?"
Well, this got me thinking. On a thread elsewhere, I suggested that when you buy a pair of Pure Silver cables for £300+ and they come with basic Neutrik XLR plugs on, you may as well just throw your money in the bin.
Obviously my diplomacy went down extremely well lol
So in came a plethora of questions about my opinion and then came this question of Rhodium.
Well, folks, the truth is Rhodium Plated plugs are the biggest pile of Sh#t out there. This isn't just an opinion BTW, its fact.
You see, what most people don't realise is that you cant just take a copper pin and plate on to it directly. Oh no, you have to plate it with Nickel first or you get a tarnished colour, be it silver, gold or Rhodium. Manufacturers use Nickel as the first plating metal because it's cheap. Then they plate on top of that with gold or with Silver then rhodium. Generally speaking ofc.
Jewellers use the same technique to get a brilliant finish. It's a cosmetic touch that ruins a good plug IMO. [italics added]
So what's the issue?
The issue is that Rhodium is a very poor conductor material. It's only being used for Bling and offers nothing to the signal in terms of preservation or conductivity.
Have a look Here:
Conductivity Of Metals Sorted By Resistivity
RESIST. COND. SOURCE
ohm-m SIEMENS/m % IACS CODE MATERIAL
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.591E-08 6.287E+07 108.40 1 Silver, Pure
1.642E-08 6.090E+07 105.00 2 Silver, Pure
1.664E-08 6.009E+07 103.60 1 Copper, Pure
1.707E-08 5.858E+07 101.00 1 Copper, Electrolytic Tough Pitch (Annealed)
1.724E-08 5.800E+07 100.00 2 Copper, Pure
2.028E-08 4.930E+07 85.00 1 Copper, Deoxidized (Annealed)
2.349E-08 4.257E+07 73.40 1 Gold
2.463E-08 4.060E+07 70.00 2 Gold, Pure
3.592E-08 2.784E+07 48.00 1 Bronze Phos., 1.25% Phos. Grade E
3.592E-08 2.784E+07 48.00 1 Phos. Bronze, 1.25% Phos. Grade E
3.918E-08 2.552E+07 44.00 1 Bronze, Commercial (Annealed)
4.000E-08 2.500E+07 43.10 1 Beryllium
4.105E-08 2.436E+07 42.00 1 Bronze, Commercial Leaded
4.105E-08 2.436E+07 42.00 1 Leaded Commercial Bronze
4.490E-08 2.227E+07 38.40 1 Rhodium
4.660E-08 2.146E+07 37.00 1 Brass, Red (Annealed)
5.388E-08 1.856E+07 32.00 1 Brass, Low (Annealed)
6.158E-08 1.624E+07 28.00 1 Brass, Cartridge (Annealed)
6.247E-08 1.601E+07 27.60 1 Cobalt
6.631E-08 1.508E+07 26.00 1 Brass, Low Leaded (Annealed)
6.631E-08 1.508E+07 26.00 1 Brass, Leaded Naval (Annealed)
6.631E-08 1.508E+07 26.00 1 Brass, Naval (Annealed)
8.210E-08 1.218E+07 21.00 1 Beryllium Copper, Cond. At
8.210E-08 1.218E+07 21.00 1 Copper Beryllium, Cond. At
9.579E-08 1.044E+07 18.00 1 Phos. Bronze, 5% Phos. Grade A
9.579E-08 1.044E+07 18.00 1 Bronze Phos., 5% Phos. Grade A
9.852E-08 1.015E+07 17.50 1 Bronze Aluminum, 5% Aluminum (Annealed)
1.014E-07 9.860E+06 17.00 1 Copper Beryllium, Cond. "A"
1.039E-07 9.628E+06 16.60 1 Silver, Tin Solder
1.039E-07 9.628E+06 16.60 1 Tin, Silver Solder
1.039E-07 9.628E+06 16.60 1 Solder, Tin Silver
As you can see, Rhodium has an IACS rating of 38.40% Which is absolutely crap when compared to that of Silver, Copper or Gold.
But guess what......My biggest peev is the line "Neutrik plugs are great" .......... are they?
lets have a look. EVERY Neutrik plug and socket has conductors made from Brass. even the best quality brass can only manage an IACS rating 48.00%
Based on facts alone, you can only arrive at the conclusion that actually, no they aren't great.
So what's my opinion? There is no point buying a Ferrari and putting shopping trolley wheels on it. If you are buying some cbales, pay attention to the plugs they use.
If you make your own, RCA's from AECO, KLE and WBT are about as good as it gets.
If you make Balanced, AECO, ETI and Viborg (Gold Plated) are where I'd spen my money.
I'm a little confused by this post in Oliver's blog a while back:
On the one hand the nickel is an intermediate layer between copper and any other plating and is "a cosmetic touch that ruins a good plug."
This somehow relates to Rhodium being poor, 1) because of nickel plating in between, and 2) Rhodium not being a great conductor.
Yet if correct, silver also uses this multi-layer plating. But the author doesn't slate it, presumably because it is such a good conductor it makes up for the intermediate layer? Even recommends gold plated. So I don't understand the italicised buit I quoted.
I've also read several who say that silver plated can tend to be a little overbright and harsh, so pure copper or pure silver are preferred.
I'm probably misreading the table, but isn't it listing the Beryllium Copper and Phosphor Bronze vary a good bit in resistance/conductivity based on the percentages and most aren't that great? That would call into question most of the AliExpress brands (Viborg, CMC, EIZZ, etc.) which advertise: beryllium copper, red copper, pure copper, phosphor....
And the ones that say "pure copper" (unplated) seem rather unlikely to be as advertised or wouldn't they corrode like crazy exposed to the air? And in binding posts they'd be too soft for the threads?
...I don't know if this belongs under DIY or General or Cables & Accessories.
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 6, 2021 19:21:58 GMT
The relative electrical conductivity means sweet F#ck all, solder is only 25-30% iacs, so removing one solder joint in your signal path will do more to lower the resistance of your sockets than ug/socket swap.
All that matters is the resistance that each connection adds, and a rca socket, any, will add a few single digits milliohms, and it's linear and affects all frequencies equally. It's akin to turning 5he volume down by about 1/50 of a dB, less actually.
Think of the change in resistance of the resistors between a single step in a 24 step 10k stepped pot. No divide it by 10,000 and find something meaningful to worry about.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 6, 2021 20:18:01 GMT
The relative electrical conductivity means sweet F#ck all, solder is only 25-30% iacs, so removing one solder joint in your signal path will do more to lower the resistance of your sockets than ug/socket swap. All that matters is the resistance that each connection adds, and a rca socket, any, will add a few single digits milliohms, and it's linear and affects all frequencies equally. It's akin to turning 5he volume down by about 1/50 of a dB, less actually. Think of the change in resistance of the resistors between a single step in a 24 step 10k stepped pot. No divide it by 10,000 and find something meaningful to worry about. Thats presuming that resistance is the only factor at play, which it isn't. |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 6, 2021 20:45:43 GMT
I will offer my humble opinion, formed trying almost every variation of connection possible, including no plugs and direct soldering my components together. So in order of my preference when i did the experiments: 1 - Soldered connection, no plugs or sockets. Totally impractical, but gave the best performance....hands down. 2 - Direct Gold plated, Pure Copper RCA sockets and Plugs - Yes they are directly played (no nickel) and yes they are pure copper. If anyone doubts the durability of this, i have a sample i can send that will end the notion entirely. They are not commonplace, and as of yet, only a couple of companies claim to use it. CMC make Pure Copper RCA sockets and Spades. This is the closest i got to replicating the fluidity of having no "connections" 3 - Gold plated Tellurium Copper. There are loads of these about but usually consist of a layer of Nickel and maybe a layer of silver. 4 - Pure Silver. There are loads of these, but not all are equal. I use KLE Absolute Harmony on the Spotfire Ref cable, and it is a superb plug. However, some other brands do add an emphasis on HF. AECO are the best of the rest. 5 - Sell the system and retire. I am not interested in brass because it sounds Sh#t. Emphasis on the leading edge of everything and it makes things sound shrill and hard. Not interested in Rhodium, it also makes the HF sound weird....hard to explain but i have seen the effect on a scope. If you would like to hear a system that doesn't have a scrap of Brass in it, you are more than welcome to pop in. Hope i have cleared up any confusion  |
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Post by brucew268 on Jul 6, 2021 20:53:50 GMT
The relative electrical conductivity means sweet F#ck all, solder is only 25-30% iacs, so removing one solder joint in your signal path will do more to lower the resistance of your sockets than ug/socket swap. All that matters is the resistance that each connection adds, and a rca socket, any, will add a few single digits milliohms, and it's linear and affects all frequencies equally. It's akin to turning 5he volume down by about 1/50 of a dB, less actually. Think of the change in resistance of the resistors between a single step in a 24 step 10k stepped pot. No divide it by 10,000 and find something meaningful to worry about. Thats presuming that resistance is the only factor at play, which it isn't. Yes, I don't get this. the table shows solder as 16-17 not 25-30... and yet its Resistance score is very low and its Conductivity score is very high, so why such a low IACS? ...and other IACS tables don't seem to be in lock step with this one on multiple materials. Two below: Also, it seems that different materials used don't just affect volume and not all frequencies equally. One can easily hear different frequencies affected with silver plated vs brass vs pure copper. And it also sometimes affects a sense of noise, which may be frequency focus or may be actually an artifact of less than perfect transmission.
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Post by brucew268 on Jul 6, 2021 21:06:22 GMT
So in order of my preference when i did the experiments: ...2 - Direct Gold plated, Pure Copper RCA sockets and Plugs - Yes they are directly played (no nickel) and yes they are pure copper. If anyone doubts the durability of this, i have a sample i can send that will end the notion entirely. They are not commonplace, and as of yet, only a couple of companies claim to use it. CMC make Pure Copper RCA sockets and Spades. This is the closest i got to replicating the fluidity of having no "connections" 3 - Gold plated Tellurium Copper. There are loads of these about but usually consist of a layer of Nickel and maybe a layer of silver. 4 - Pure Silver. There are loads of these, but not all are equal. I use KLE Absolute Harmony on the Spotfire Ref cable, and it is a superb plug. However, some other brands do add an emphasis on HF. AECO are the best of the rest. ...Hope i have cleared up any confusion
Direct Gold plated pure copper -- not common: any known sources to point to?
CMC 'Pure Copper'. Not plated and no corrosion? If not, how does that happen? I have some CMC 'Pure Copper' binding posts on my Modulus 686 which I assume has something added in to harden and inhibit corrosion, otherwise....
Yes, I'm looking at some AECO XLR in Gold plated Tellurium Copper, which look pretty good.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 6, 2021 21:09:10 GMT
So in order of my preference when i did the experiments: ...2 - Direct Gold plated, Pure Copper RCA sockets and Plugs - Yes they are directly played (no nickel) and yes they are pure copper. If anyone doubts the durability of this, i have a sample i can send that will end the notion entirely. They are not commonplace, and as of yet, only a couple of companies claim to use it. CMC make Pure Copper RCA sockets and Spades. This is the closest i got to replicating the fluidity of having no "connections" 3 - Gold plated Tellurium Copper. There are loads of these about but usually consist of a layer of Nickel and maybe a layer of silver. 4 - Pure Silver. There are loads of these, but not all are equal. I use KLE Absolute Harmony on the Spotfire Ref cable, and it is a superb plug. However, some other brands do add an emphasis on HF. AECO are the best of the rest. ...Hope i have cleared up any confusion
Direct Gold plated pure copper -- not common: any known sources to point to?
CMC 'Pure Copper'. Not plated and no corrosion? If not, how does that happen? I have some CMC 'Pure Copper' binding posts on my Modulus 686 which I assume has something added in to harden and inhibit corrosion, otherwise....
Yes, I'm looking at some AECO XLR in Gold plated Tellurium Copper, which look pretty good.
The CMC pure copper I use, are direct gold plated. They are what I use for Binding posts and RCA sockets. I use them exclusively and refuse to use anything else, even when it's requested. For direct gold plate RCA plugs, the ONLY ones I have found were Neotech OCC RCA plugs and they are so expensive that not even I have dared to try them. AECO are rock sold and offer fantabulous VFM. |
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 6, 2021 23:30:27 GMT
You're hearing inductance and capacitance, not the resistance of the cables or plugs, not eddy currents, phase anomalies, group delay, skin effect, metal purity or anything else.
I long ago gave up any dalliance with cables, I use starquad xlr with cooking neutrik plugs and sockets on everything. Kle, eichmann, wbt next gen and others, audionote, all the usual suspects, been there, done that, gave it up.
When they start selling fancy cables with 50k oscilloscopes I'll start giving a Sh#t
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 7, 2021 5:24:50 GMT
You're hearing inductance and capacitance, not the resistance of the cables or plugs, not eddy currents, phase anomalies, group delay, skin effect, metal purity or anything else. I long ago gave up any dalliance with cables, I use starquad xlr with cooking neutrik plugs and sockets on everything. Kle, eichmann, wbt next gen and others, audionote, all the usual suspects, been there, done that, gave it up. When they start selling fancy cables with 50k oscilloscopes I'll start giving a Sh#t Either way, whatever I am hearing makes a difference to my level of enjoyment, so that's good enough for me. 👍 |
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 7, 2021 18:25:35 GMT
If you like it, spend it, shouldn't be any other way.
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