optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Jun 25, 2021 7:42:48 GMT
Yes I know they are not 'genuine' tried and tested speakers (although the design is sound) but these are literally about half the price they have been for a while and now there is free shipping to the UK (which sometimes can be an extra £1000!). I really want to take a punt myself but need that final push, or maybe I need to be talked back from the ledge and convinced not to . . . . I have 4 lovely pairs of working speakers (and 2 pairs of Quads in repair) but these are just immense. www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001552611829.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.256f3c00Fo0ime&mp=1
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Jun 25, 2021 8:09:17 GMT
'Kafra/Kavra/Calaf fiber'?
Looks like a B+W clone, not impressed with the woofer response graph. I'd avoid.
|
|
|
Post by stryder5 on Jun 25, 2021 8:11:41 GMT
'Kafra/Kavra/Calaf fiber'? Looks like a B+W clone, not impressed with the woofer response graph. I'd avoid. Kevlar.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Jun 25, 2021 8:17:58 GMT
'Kafra/Kavra/Calaf fiber'? Looks like a B+W clone, not impressed with the woofer response graph. I'd avoid. Yeah those graph's can be a bit 'iffy' as I have bought speakers from the far east with graph's all over the place which actually measured significantly better. I'm sure the converse is more commonly true though. I'm somewhat swayed by the looks and the overall package. Nice wood and on nice support stands too. Yes they are B&W clones. Can imagine the bass is ample . . . . I've actually followed these 'clone' design speakers for a few years and the users do report they are (now) very nice speakers. They have been improved upon a few times, since the first incarnations were not that great. Manufacturing and materials have improved as has their understanding of how to construct a speaker. The shop sell a huge amount of well respected designs so I can't imagine them selling tat. Will it sound as good as anything it's imitating, unlikely. Will it sound good, I guarantee. Will it sound somewhere good enough to great, that is the question . . . . and probably not one worth nearly £1800, even if it has been heavily discounted.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 25, 2021 8:45:59 GMT
No f#cking chance on earth.
There is a thread somewhere on a forum and they describe these speakers as "listening to children scream whilst submerged in water....."
Or something as similarly disturbing.... can't recall exactly.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Jun 25, 2021 8:51:03 GMT
No f#cking chance on earth. There is a thread somewhere on a forum and they describe these speakers as "listening to children scream whilst submerged in water....." Or something as similarly disturbing.... can't recall exactly. Haha, point taken. I have actually stumbled upon some relatively opposite views on a forum (I'll try and dig them out) but you never know who's writing them and sometimes for what purpose . . . . I think that phrase will be all I needed to hear. Get enough of the children screaming thing as it is . . .
|
|
|
Post by mikeyb on Jun 25, 2021 9:07:07 GMT
half price for a reason, nae bugger buys them
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 25, 2021 9:09:25 GMT
No f#cking chance on earth. There is a thread somewhere on a forum and they describe these speakers as "listening to children scream whilst submerged in water....." Or something as similarly disturbing.... can't recall exactly. Haha, point taken. I have actually stumbled upon some relatively opposite views on a forum (I'll try and dig them out) but you never know who's writing them and sometimes for what purpose . . . . I think that phrase will be all I needed to hear. Get enough of the children screaming thing as it is . . . I think you have to exercise caution whenever you read anything. A lot more of my time is spent finding out what system is in use when these "forum sages" are forming and dishing out their opinions. Heres what Patrick Butler said a while back: Aesthetic copies of Bowers & Wilkins designs have been circulating around the marketplace for longer than we have produced products in China. As I've commented elsewhere, the Mistral speaker weighs 38kg per speaker versus an actual 802D2 at 72kg.
Regards,
Patrick Butler B&W Group North America
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Jun 25, 2021 9:24:58 GMT
'Kafra/Kavra/Calaf fiber'? Looks like a B+W clone, not impressed with the woofer response graph. I'd avoid. Kevlar. Yes I know it's Kevlar, just commenting that they don't know how to spell it.... 3 times.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Jun 25, 2021 9:27:53 GMT
Haha, point taken. I have actually stumbled upon some relatively opposite views on a forum (I'll try and dig them out) but you never know who's writing them and sometimes for what purpose . . . . I think that phrase will be all I needed to hear. Get enough of the children screaming thing as it is . . . I think you have to exercise caution whenever you read anything. A lot more of my time is spent finding out what system is in use when these "forum sages" are forming and dishing out their opinions. Heres what Patrick Butler said a while back: Aesthetic copies of Bowers & Wilkins designs have been circulating around the marketplace for longer than we have produced products in China. As I've commented elsewhere, the Mistral speaker weighs 38kg per speaker versus an actual 802D2 at 72kg.
Regards,
Patrick Butler B&W Group North AmericaI mean, HE's not going to like them . . . but it's a valid and simple point. These aren't the 'Mistral' ones I don't think, although even more worrying perhaps that the particular brand isn't even stated! Like I say I was just quite taken with their appearance and indeed having double 10" drivers and the nautilus 'vibe'. If I sit back and think about it, if someone came to me and asked "I quite like these speakers based on their looks, shall I drop £1800.00 on them?" I'd take their wallet and bury it at the bottom of a deep well. Medicine taken.
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Jun 25, 2021 9:36:36 GMT
The bottom line B&W reason enough to avoid, let along a piss poor imitation, I suspect aim Ovators may produce a slightly better sound!
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 25, 2021 9:40:30 GMT
I think you have to exercise caution whenever you read anything. A lot more of my time is spent finding out what system is in use when these "forum sages" are forming and dishing out their opinions. Heres what Patrick Butler said a while back: Aesthetic copies of Bowers & Wilkins designs have been circulating around the marketplace for longer than we have produced products in China. As I've commented elsewhere, the Mistral speaker weighs 38kg per speaker versus an actual 802D2 at 72kg.
Regards,
Patrick Butler B&W Group North AmericaI mean, HE's not going to like them . . . but it's a valid and simple point. These aren't the 'Mistral' ones I don't think, although even more worrying perhaps that the particular brand isn't even stated! Like I say I was just quite taken with their appearance and indeed having double 10" drivers and the nautilus 'vibe'. If I sit back and think about it, if someone came to me and asked "I quite like these speakers based on their looks, shall I drop £1800.00 on them?" I'd take their wallet and bury it at the bottom of a deep well. Medicine taken. Are you in need of some speakers? Like, backups or maybe alternative to your Quads?
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Jun 25, 2021 9:54:49 GMT
I mean, HE's not going to like them . . . but it's a valid and simple point. These aren't the 'Mistral' ones I don't think, although even more worrying perhaps that the particular brand isn't even stated! Like I say I was just quite taken with their appearance and indeed having double 10" drivers and the nautilus 'vibe'. If I sit back and think about it, if someone came to me and asked "I quite like these speakers based on their looks, shall I drop £1800.00 on them?" I'd take their wallet and bury it at the bottom of a deep well. Medicine taken. Are you in need of some speakers? Like, backups or maybe alternative to your Quads? Always . . . . . I have my Cambridge Acoustic "Grand Master's", some Klipsch KG 4.5's, some Loth X BS1's as well as my pair of 57's (one with low output) and my 63's (dead transformer which I've still yet to fit). In reality I love them all but in different ways, I would like to possibly boil them all down to an ultimate pair of endgame speakers but I'm unsure as to what they may be given room acoustics/amp pairings etc. My current Grand Masters have a huge soundstage (actually enormous) and very well rounded performance on a measured graph. Very Linear. However, they do not sound like the Quads, of course they cannot. I'm happy with them until I hear a pair or remember how the Quads performed on a certain track. My room has a bit of bass suck-out right where the listening position pretty much has to be but this has been (mostly) rectified by having a pair of subs. It's boomy in all corners of the room but okay at the listening position, I think having the subs turned up this much is having a negative effect on all the other frequencies but it's the only way I can get decent bass response in that position. It's a real compromise. I know I should change the listening position or the speakers but I've tried a few combinations and it's not really possible. A far inferior setup in my previous house sounded much better in most ways due to the room interaction, which just gently underpinned the bass and lower mid-range, it was like listening in a giant horn due to the sloped roof. Dynamics were insane. At a bit of a crossroads really. I think if I had a pair of 57's working perfectly and integrated subs (maybe using a proper corssover) I'd be home. Especially as the Quads don't mind about side reflections too much and I can have them out into the room. Cone speakers seem to have no bass in my room but electrostatics generate it just fine it seems. Weird.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 25, 2021 9:59:35 GMT
Are you in need of some speakers? Like, backups or maybe alternative to your Quads? Always . . . . . I have my Cambridge Acoustic "Grand Master's", some Klipsch KG 4.5's, some Loth X BS1's as well as my pair of 57's (one with low output) and my 63's (dead transformer which I've still yet to fit). In reality I love them all but in different ways, I would like to possibly boil them all down to an ultimate pair of endgame speakers but I'm unsure as to what they may be given room acoustics/amp pairings etc. My current Grand Masters have a huge soundstage (actually enormous) and very well rounded performance on a measured graph. Very Linear. However, they do not sound like the Quads, of course they cannot. I'm happy with them until I hear a pair or remember how the Quads performed on a certain track. My room has a bit of bass suck-out right where the listening position pretty much has to be but this has been (mostly) rectified by having a pair of subs. It's boomy in all corners of the room but okay at the listening position, I think having the subs turned up this much is having a negative effect on all the other frequencies but it's the only way I can get decent bass response in that position. It's a real compromise. I know I should change the listening position or the speakers but I've tried a few combinations and it's not really possible. A far inferior setup in my previous house sounded much better in most ways due to the room interaction, which just gently underpinned the bass and lower mid-range, it was like listening in a giant horn due to the sloped roof. Dynamics were insane. At a bit of a crossroads really. I think if I had a pair of 57's working perfectly and integrated subs (maybe using a proper corssover) I'd be home. Especially as the Quads don't mind about side reflections too much and I can have them out into the room. Cone speakers seem to have no bass in my room but electrostatics generate it just fine it seems. Weird. Hmmm, that's quite the conundrum
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 25, 2021 15:11:59 GMT
The bottom line B&W reason enough to avoid, let along a piss poor imitation, I suspect aim Ovators may produce a slightly better sound! Yes the real ones are bit suss never mind some dodgy Chinese knock-off. We agree for once T!
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 25, 2021 15:13:48 GMT
Those Cambridge Acoustic things look like all the speaker you'd ever need, what sort of amplifcation have you got on them?
|
|
|
Post by stryder5 on Jun 25, 2021 15:28:45 GMT
Yes I know it's Kevlar, just commenting that they don't know how to spell it.... 3 times. I know you know as I know....3 times.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 25, 2021 15:43:45 GMT
Or it's not Kevlar but its generic non-union Chinese equivalent.
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Jun 25, 2021 15:57:39 GMT
Thank you Martin I need a lie down now
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Jun 25, 2021 17:27:58 GMT
Those Cambridge Acoustic things look like all the speaker you'd ever need, what sort of amplifcation have you got on them? Indeed they are Martin, but the bass from nearly all speakers is killed by the bass suck out at the listening position. They measure almost flat to under 30hz in another room. I didn't need to use subs before and now I do.... Amplification is via a Neurochrome 686 so no improvements needed there. Also a very good sounding tube preamp in the mix. I have a few solutions pending but it's all trial and error!
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 25, 2021 20:13:31 GMT
right I just read your post about it.
Sounds like a very awkward room. is it square?
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Jun 25, 2021 21:25:18 GMT
right I just read your post about it. Sounds like a very awkward room. is it square? It's kind of a 'T' shape but with a sloped ceiling on one side. It's not terrible acoustically it's just the bass suck out out at the listening position. At various other parts of the room (not just in the corners) there is full, punchy bass. It's certainly problematic, I've always managed to overcome similar issues before but the only solution I've found so far is overloading the room with low frequency. It does work but with the caveat of having a slightly negative effect on the rest of the frequencies. Sounds a bit congested and almost 'compressed'. Thoughts appreciated
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Jun 26, 2021 1:49:03 GMT
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 26, 2021 6:31:10 GMT
right I just read your post about it. Sounds like a very awkward room. is it square? It's kind of a 'T' shape but with a sloped ceiling on one side. It's not terrible acoustically it's just the bass suck out out at the listening position. At various other parts of the room (not just in the corners) there is full, punchy bass. It's certainly problematic, I've always managed to overcome similar issues before but the only solution I've found so far is overloading the room with low frequency. It does work but with the caveat of having a slightly negative effect on the rest of the frequencies. Sounds a bit congested and almost 'compressed'. Thoughts appreciated well you said you had no issues in a different room so we can rule out the problem being the loudspeakers. I couldn't find any measurements for them or even any details, just pictures, Suck outs are really hard to deal with, sometimes there is no solution. Have you taken any measurements in the room? I guess you already experimented with different roll of frequencies with the subs and different placements for the speakers? Do the speakers back on to a wall with a window?
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Jun 26, 2021 8:00:56 GMT
It's kind of a 'T' shape but with a sloped ceiling on one side. It's not terrible acoustically it's just the bass suck out out at the listening position. At various other parts of the room (not just in the corners) there is full, punchy bass. It's certainly problematic, I've always managed to overcome similar issues before but the only solution I've found so far is overloading the room with low frequency. It does work but with the caveat of having a slightly negative effect on the rest of the frequencies. Sounds a bit congested and almost 'compressed'. Thoughts appreciated well you said you had no issues in a different room so we can rule out the problem being the loudspeakers. I couldn't find any measurements for them or even any details, just pictures, Suck outs are really hard to deal with, sometimes there is no solution. Have you taken any measurements in the room? I guess you already experimented with different roll of frequencies with the subs and different placements for the speakers? Do the speakers back on to a wall with a window? The speakers are pulled out from the back wall by 2.5ft or so and it's a solid wall behind them. There is acoustic treatment in the corners and along the back wall. I've measured it using the microphone and my Behringer digital EQ processor which confirms the 30-60hz dull spot around the listening area. I could boost the frequencies in the dull area with this but I'd prefer not to add any processing and obviously you can't do it with vinyl as the processing is done in the digital domain. It also means routing the signal using two extra toslink cables and I'd rather just use one quality coax cable. So I tried a slightly more physical approach and did something that I had in the setup a while ago actually but didn't realise/forgot it made such a difference. I have mounted the subs on granite plinths. This serves a few purposes. Firstly it raises them off the floor slightly stopping the low frequencies getting a bit "muddy" and being absorbed into the carpet. Secondly it adds a degree of 'slam' which carries around the room much more evenly and actually reaches the listening position. I have actually been able to turn the subs down a bit which allows the main speakers to 'breath' a bit more and the natural less compressed soundstage has returned. All better so far. It's not that it sounded awful before, I had just heard it sounding a lot better so it was very frustrating. This is a lot better no doubt. I may further experiment with bigger plinths and positioning but things have improved a lot. It's also possible that the speakers and subs were having a slight cancelling out effect on each other. So the louder the subs were, the worse it got. I do listen to a lot of atmospheric bass heavy material and soundtracks, so the low end really does have to be spot on.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 26, 2021 8:10:09 GMT
what subs do you use?
I hear you about DSP and agree best not used at all if you can get away with it, even so it's only really useful for taking down peaks rather than filling in troughs. The power requirements for cancelling bass nulls are ridiculous, like kilowatts.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Jun 26, 2021 8:40:21 GMT
what subs do you use? I hear you about DSP and agree best not used at all if you can get away with it, even so it's only really useful for taking down peaks rather than filling in troughs. The power requirements for cancelling bass nulls are ridiculous, like kilowatts. A pair of REL T3's. They don't go super low but they only have 8" drivers. One passive and one active on each. They are 'fast' and don't get overtaken by the speakers which is something I hate. They integrate very nicely compared to some and you only notice them when they're off, as in it makes a big difference but doesn't sound unnatural. Nothing worse than subs drowning everything out with bass that isn't on the recording. Yes you're correct I have previously and successfully used the DSP to lower excited nodes. Boosting to correct is an exercise in futility and actually dangerous when using quads (which I previously was), the stators won't like it one bit. Cones deal with it a bit better.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 26, 2021 9:01:51 GMT
driver size doesn't have much correlation with how low a frequency it will reproduce. All depends on implementation. Most speakers with 15'' drivers like JBL and Tannoys don't go that low in the bass, the advantage of using a big driver is lower distortion.
I looked up your subs and they are -3dB at 30 Hz which is bloody good given they are relatively inexpensive.
You could consider using DSP to create a high pass filter so the main speakers don't get fed the low frequencies and they only go to the subs - or did you try that already?
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Jun 26, 2021 9:55:43 GMT
This is getting embarassing Martin is correct for all PIA rooms a real time measurment is required to see the scope of the issue, whether room modes, first reflections, suck outs ( ) etc.
For ourselves we always performa full RTA sweep of the room, this indciated to us whether the silly sized pair of speakers that customers wishes to purchase will actually work in the room to start with!
Our systems is slightly more in depth however this will help you assertain where your main issues are.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Jun 26, 2021 10:44:25 GMT
driver size doesn't have much correlation with how low a frequency it will reproduce. All depends on implementation. Most speakers with 15'' drivers like JBL and Tannoys don't go that low in the bass, the advantage of using a big driver is lower distortion. I looked up your subs and they are -3dB at 30 Hz which is bloody good given they are relatively inexpensive. You could consider using DSP to create a high pass filter so the main speakers don't get fed the low frequencies and they only go to the subs - or did you try that already? Indeed but hardly any 8" drivers go lower than 30hz, all the ones that do are 10" or bigger so the size does correlate to frequency response even though it's not the main reason governing it. I'm referencing sub drivers which are obviously a bit different to regular speaker ones. Anyway they integrate well with quads (as well as other speakers), others I have tried, SVS, BK and others have not. I wrote they are 'fast' because I know that statement (without inverted comma) irks a few people, but the bigger subs I've tried did lag behind the quads, these don't. Probably due to worse design rather than driver size but for whatever reason these work better. I have considered releaving the speakers of below 50hz and crossing under 50hz to the subs but again it's more signal paths, not to mention cost and I'm quite happy with this result for now. Nice to keep things simple until I have money to really throw at it. If I was paying for a room sweep and DSP I'd just build a better custom built room from the off! Law of diminishing returns has to kick in somewhere for me.
|
|