dt79
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Post by dt79 on Mar 13, 2021 17:34:21 GMT
Just got myself an SL-1200G after finally running out of patience with my obtuse Clearaudio Performance DC/Clarify and deciding that I need a ‘proper machine’ and the only thing for it was to return to the Technics fold. Cartridge is an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze. Well all I can say is this thing is indeed a PROPER MACHINE! It’s beautifully built (although a tad ‘bling’ after the PDC), it weights a ton, but mainly it works the way a turntable should...by which I mean all of the adjustments are conveniently to hand, and they all have a scale printed on them. The different adjustment parameters don’t have an interdependency that they shouldn’t. It keeps perfect pitch. You hit start and it’s spinning at the correct speed before your hand has even reached your record brush. It doesn’t slow down when you apply the brush (however hard you press it). You hit stop and the platter is stationary before your hands are in position to lift the record. Technics, how I’ve missed you. The PDC is nicely put together and has some clever engineering, but man it is a PITA to adjust. I’ll never know if I ever had the best out of it, but I spent a lot of time trying and if I didn’t then all I can say is that’s not entirely my fault. So how does the ‘G’ sound, because that is the most important thing....superb! It has beautiful clarity and control. It seems like the finest details are resolved and it’s just super-clean and balanced right the way through the frequency range. It equals the PDC in the latter’s areas of strength - background noise (or lack thereof), big dynamics swings and bass depth; it beats it in a few areas that I never realised were an issue - detail, soundstage, general clarity; and it addresses the areas that I was never entirely satisfied with on the PDC - pitch stability, treble presence and balance, a tendency towards sibilance and ‘roughness’ to the treble (i know it sounds like I didn’t have it set up properly, but believe me it was not for the want of trying*). The G is just such a pleasure to listen to. Every record I’ve tried sounds better than I’ve ever heard it. The G also deals with warped and off-centre records much better. If you’re one of those people who was incredulous at the price when Technics first announced the GAE (essentially the same as the G) back in 2016, and wondered how the price could possibly be justified, believe me it really really is! So the G stays (forever, unless I can afford an SL-1000R one day!) and it’s bye bye to the PDC, which to be fair has given me much listening pleasure over the past 3 years, in-spite of itself. Roll on the BB3 to really finish off the analogue front-end  *Edit - I should add that this is at the first attempt of setting up the G and just setting a Technics standard 52mm overhang using the supplied gauge. 15 mins - BAM. Best analogue sound I’ve ever heard. |
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Post by gninnam on Mar 13, 2021 20:21:33 GMT
Never had a direct drive TT, glad you are really pleased with your new toy.
Think I will have to scratch that itch in the future.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2021 21:56:50 GMT
dt79Wise move! Cant go wrong IMO. I am still waiting for an opportunity to try that Cadenza Bronze, but it's edging nearer.
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Post by stevew on Mar 14, 2021 6:31:43 GMT
Well done Dan, pleased for you.
The cadenza bronze and a bb3.
End game stuff
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Post by macca on Mar 14, 2021 8:39:38 GMT
superb record deck, sir has made an excellent choice  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2021 11:22:06 GMT
Interesting this.
What big changes are there between the 'G' and my old
SL1200 then ?
I love the old girl dearly , but I always thought she just fell a smidgen short in me classing her as hi fidelity.
Bear in mind she's in the original state which is why I ask.
Maybe I should treat her to a better cartridge and show her a bit more respect?
Still.....I'm assuming drastic improvements have been made ?
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Post by macca on Mar 14, 2021 11:28:47 GMT
Interesting this. What big changes are there between the 'G' and my old SL1200 then ? I love the old girl dearly , but I always thought she just fell a smidgen short in me clashing her as hi fidelity. Bear in mind she's in the original state which is why I ask. I'm assuming drastic improvements have been made ? As a 1200 owner I was also intrigued and was thinking the new one would be no better. Can't recall if it was the 'G' or 'GR' version I heard but it was a step up. Although stick a better arm on a 1200 and you'd be most of the way there. The arm is the weak point. I was nearly going to do that and put an Audiomods arm on mine before I decided to call a halt on the whole vinyl thing. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2021 12:35:27 GMT
Yeah fair play.
I just dont like the idea of making any alterations to it as fortunately it's pretty mint apart from lid scuffs.
If I tried my Alphason xenon I'd be having to make arm based and such.
I'm making the assumption anyway that the arm is drastically improved on the new one , no ?
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Post by stevew on Mar 14, 2021 13:08:46 GMT
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dt79
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Post by dt79 on Mar 14, 2021 13:31:24 GMT
Yeah fair play. I just dont like the idea of making any alterations to it as fortunately it's pretty mint apart from lid scuffs. If I tried my Alphason xenon I'd be having to make arm based and such. I'm making the assumption anyway that the arm is drastically improved on the new one , no ? I had a 1210mk2 originally before I bought the performance DC. It’s too long ago to remember clearly enough and be able to make any meaningful comparisons to the G from my own experiences. However I can say that two things I did that elevated the 1210mk2 were a Funk Firm Achromat and a KAB fluid damper. If you want to max out your 1200 without doing anything non-reversible then those two things are a no-brainer and the damper will go a long way toward addressing any weakness in the arm. The other thing you could do is get the arm rewired and at the same time have a KAB silicon liner fitted to the arm - I never did either of those things but the latter was highly recommended. People also cite power supply upgrades as being beneficial on the mk2s, but then you are in to the territory of permanent alterations, however KAB do a power supply upgrade kit that they reckon is very easy to install, doesn’t involve any soldering and is completely reversible, so could be worth checking out. When i was toying with the idea of changing the TT, it was a toss-up between a second hand mk2 with the intention of maxing out its potential as a bit of an experiment and the G. In the end I found a dealer that would let me do a home trial of the G with the option to trade in my PDC for a decent price so that seemed a bit of a no brainier, especially given what decent Mk2s go for these days. Apparently the G arm is a big improvement, yes, although happily it functions exactly the same wrt to making adjustments and geometry etc. It’s hard for me to judge the arm in isolation as all I hear is the end result of the whole package, but the end result is wonderful. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2021 15:37:30 GMT
.  . . I'm halfway there then with the achromat (are they really nearly a ton ?). I've got rid of my arm stock over the years. I've only got an (in need of rewire) Alphason Xenon spare. Anyone know a good arm rewirer ? I imagine it would involve cutting away some of the original structure as in Stevie's item. Which I ain't gonna do. My questions were answered in the article though. It's obviously a totally different machine under the skin. |
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dt79
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Post by dt79 on Mar 14, 2021 18:29:47 GMT
. . . I'm halfway there then with the achromat (are they really nearly a ton ?). I've got rid of my arm stock over the years. I've only got an (in need of rewire) Alphason Xenon spare. Anyone know a good arm rewirer ? I imagine it would involve cutting away some of the original structure as in Stevie's item. Which I ain't gonna do. My questions were answered in the article though. It's obviously a totally different machine under the skin. Nice! The Mk2s are still great machines. Is that a DL-110 on there by any chance? I had one of those on my Mk2 and it was really nice, but I found that a 2M Bronze had a fair bit more ‘get up and go’ and thought that was a really good combo. One of those and a KAB damper and I think you’d be really happy. I also upgraded the headshell which lots of people seem to regard as essential, but can’t say I could identify a specific difference with that. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2021 19:36:16 GMT
Yes it is a DL-110.
It's on because its the best cart in the world for ignoring less than pristine vinyl.
I can put records that are scuffed to much for the gyrodec/10x4 and it just plays the music.
Worth knowing if anyone has loved but well used records.
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Post by antonio on Mar 15, 2021 0:01:42 GMT
Congratulations on your new purchase DT, it's the tt I would go for if in the market for up to £5k simply because it's set-up and fuss free. I did read the only improvement one had to make was a KAB fluid damper, I'm sure you know this already having already owned one. I'm going to have to get me 2 pennies worth in again  regarding the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, and the only experience I've really got of that brand. I heard a direct comparison between the Bronze and the Black, done by Fanthorpes at a show, the Black won hands down, don't know if there is a great price difference but it would be the one I would go for, and I think everyone else in the room. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 0:13:34 GMT
Right...
Tomorrow I'm putting an Ortofon 2M Black on my Technics.
It better be good or heads will roll round here. 🤨
I've not imposed my authority as a silent partner and moderator on here before but damn your eyes you'll see justice meted out that Lucius Cornelius Sulla would have balked at ! 😠
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Post by jimbo on Mar 15, 2021 6:27:54 GMT
Right... Tomorrow I'm putting an Ortofon 2M Black on my Technics. It better be good or heads will roll round here. 🤨 I've not imposed my authority as a silent partner and moderator on here before but damn your eyes you'll see justice meted out that Lucius Cornelius Sulla would have balked at ! 😠 Now this I am interested in! |
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dt79
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Post by dt79 on Mar 15, 2021 7:24:40 GMT
Congratulations on your new purchase DT, it's the tt I would go for if in the market for up to £5k simply because it's set-up and fuss free. I did read the only improvement one had to make was a KAB fluid damper, I'm sure you know this already having already owned one. I'm going to have to get me 2 pennies worth in again regarding the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, and the only experience I've really got of that brand. I heard a direct comparison between the Bronze and the Black, done by Fanthorpes at a show, the Black won hands down, don't know if there is a great price difference but it would be the one I would go for, and I think everyone else in the room. Cheers. The black was just a step too far price wise for me. It’s very difficult to directly compare cartridges at the best of times, and during the pandemic all but impossible. I found a retailer willing to sell me one on a sale or return basis so I just judged the Bronze against the Clearaudio Concept MC cartridge that was on my Performance DC and found it to be clearly better, so kept it. When the stylus on the Bronze is worn out, I’ll most likely trade it in against a Black. Yes the KAB damper is inevitable in the not too distant future! |
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dt79
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Post by dt79 on Mar 15, 2021 7:25:34 GMT
Right... Tomorrow I'm putting an Ortofon 2M Black on my Technics. It better be good or heads will roll round here. 🤨 I've not imposed my authority as a silent partner and moderator on here before but damn your eyes you'll see justice meted out that Lucius Cornelius Sulla would have balked at ! 😠 Excellent choice! KAB damper.....no brainier for what it costs! |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2021 7:37:17 GMT
Right... Tomorrow I'm putting an Ortofon 2M Black on my Technics. It better be good or heads will roll round here. 🤨 I've not imposed my authority as a silent partner and moderator on here before but damn your eyes you'll see justice meted out that Lucius Cornelius Sulla would have balked at ! 😠 Woah! Get ready for the detail! Am awaiting the report. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 9:17:08 GMT
I am not a fan of the 2M Black myself, but you probably all know that anyway.
My EPC-205 with Jico SAS in either Boron or Sapphire will hold it’s own against the 2M Black.
And the best thing? The replacement styli are cheaper, and use a superior cantilever material.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2021 9:53:12 GMT
I am not a fan of the 2M Black myself, but you probably all know that anyway. My EPC-205 with Jico SAS in either Boron or Sapphire will hold it’s own against the 2M Black. And the best thing? The replacement styli are cheaper, and use a superior cantilever material. Don't piss on his chips before he's even heard it! 🤣 |
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Post by robbiegong on Mar 15, 2021 10:52:29 GMT
I am not a fan of the 2M Black myself, but you probably all know that anyway. My EPC-205 with Jico SAS in either Boron or Sapphire will hold it’s own against the 2M Black. And the best thing? The replacement styli are cheaper, and use a superior cantilever material. Don't piss on his chips before he's even heard it! 🤣 lol |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 10:58:10 GMT
Woss is KAB Damper nen ? 🙃
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Post by macca on Mar 15, 2021 11:04:39 GMT
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2021 11:04:53 GMT
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2021 11:05:06 GMT
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Post by robbiegong on Mar 15, 2021 11:24:10 GMT
I've had extensive experience with both the Techie, which I modded to within an inch of its life and the 2M Black.
The 2M Black, is an excellent cart, no question in my experience. It was my first quality cart and opened my eyes to what could be achieved in terms of really good replay and the difference a genuinely good cart can make.
BUT, as is with most things, there's no such thing as a free lunch.
You will not hear what a 2MB can do or understand what the fuss is about, if you do not set it up properly and nail it's narrow sweet-spot. This I have found to be the case with every single microline stylus tip I have owned and all part of the learning.
I've found it to be the vta in particular, which I carefully dial in after all the other parameters have been properly set.
It's why I personally have to have an arm with on the fly vta, for this reason.
I've always found a slightly negative rake is where it's at rather than the 'generic' perfectly horizontal.
Some people find these carts a faff to set up and so give up on them, which I definitely get. If you're patient though and find the sweet-spot. You'll understand why the 2MB and microlines are so well regarded.
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Post by macca on Mar 15, 2021 11:30:22 GMT
Heard a load of Techy SL1200 original, modded and heavily modded to the extent where there was only the lower plinth and motor unit left. And I still own 2 SL1200s myself - both stock. But I've never heard one with the KAB damper. It does make sense though especially if you don't want to change the arm. Which I understand, one of my SL1200 is mint and being a design classic cannot be touched, so I would have put the new arm on the other one. One of my favourite modded 1200s was one that had been built into concrete and had a Terminator linear tracking arm fitted. Ortofon MC cart, but not an expensive one. It massacred the other decks at the bake-off. But I also heard an SL1210 that had nothing done to it except the arm was replaced with a Rega arm (forget which one, think it was a 250 or 300) and it was excellent. Couldn't fault it. That slightly 'shut in' sound the SL1200 has compared to 'hi-fi' decks is all in the arm. Sort that and you're golden. The rest of the deck is way better than anything remotely close on price and most of what is available at silly money (five grand plus). Tried loads of mats, preferred the Achromat. MM Cartridges? Nagaoka - accept no substitute  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2021 11:51:04 GMT
Heard a load of Techy SL1200 original, modded and heavily modded to the extent where there was only the lower plinth and motor unit left. And I still own 2 SL1200s myself - both stock. But I've never heard one with the KAB damper. It does make sense though especially if you don't want to change the arm. Which I understand, one of my SL1200 is mint and being a design classic cannot be touched, so I would have put the new arm on the other one. One of my favourite modded 1200s was one that had been built into concrete and had a Terminator linear tracking arm fitted. Ortofon MC cart, but not an expensive one. It massacred the other decks at the bake-off. But I also heard an SL1210 that had nothing done to it except the arm was replaced with a Rega arm (forget which one, think it was a 250 or 300) and it was excellent. Couldn't fault it. That slightly 'shut in' sound the SL1200 has compared to 'hi-fi' decks is all in the arm. Sort that and you're golden. The rest of the deck is way better than anything remotely close on price and most of what is available at silly money (five grand plus). Tried loads of mats, preferred the Achromat. MM Cartridges? Nagaoka - accept no substitute This is spot on. the 1210 is far better than most of the dross thrown out at at stupid money...but you have to put a good arm on and you have to avoiud using a metal arm base IMO. Get a nicely made ebony one and i would imagine you'll be absolutely in "Hi End" territory for sensible money. |
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Post by robbiegong on Mar 15, 2021 12:18:41 GMT
I used Kevin's KAB damper, with the original stock arm on my SL1210g at the time, and from what I remember it was good.
I'm sure I would have used the 2MB with and without it and dont remember the "MB sounding bad either way.
He also does a resonance cap which screws into the back of the arm, same place where you'd add the sub auxiliary weight. A useful thing to have if you use the stock arm - about a fiver.
Btw, I actually think the stock arm is good and well worth applying a few simple mods too, so simple wrap, resonance cap etc.
Do Remember, that once you decide to strip out and do away with the stock arm, you are losing the excellent on the fly vya adjust system, which I'm a big fan of.
If you're using conicals and carts less fussy re: set up then that's fine. I found the stock arm excellent with the 2M Black, better magnesium headshell, resonance cap and so on, even more so that I could dial it in with the aid of the on the fly.
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regarding the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, and the only experience I've really got of that brand. I heard a direct comparison between the Bronze and the Black, done by Fanthorpes at a show, the Black won hands down, don't know if there is a great price difference but it would be the one I would go for, and I think everyone else in the room.
