dt79
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Jan 27, 2021 20:40:54 GMT
Hi all,
I joined fairly recently and this is my first ‘proper’ thread. I’m hoping to tap into the collective wisdom on here with regards to MC cartridge loading. I want to crack the optimum loading for my cartridge (Cadenza Bronze) before I receive my much anticipated BB3 and I’m not finding it quite as easy as just experimenting to see what sounds best.
Per my sig I’m currently using an NJC SUT and Phono preamp. The SUT has various loading options in reasonably fine increments at both +20db and +26db settings. The recommended loading for the CB is 50-200ohms. As I understand it the higher the loading the more this controls the high frequencies but too high and they will be constrained and the whole sound be too ‘tight’ and lacking in energy; lower it and it allows for a more open sound, but too low and the treble with sound ragged and sibilant. Does that sound about right?
The problem I have is that I’m finding that the results I get are inconsistent. What sounds sublime one day will sound a little shut-in the next. Sometimes I’ll change the loading and tell a difference, sometimes I’ll change it and can’t hear any. Sometimes I’ll change it and the effect will seem like it’s the opposite of what it should be! It’s quite frustrating. Is it possible that you make a change to the loading and it takes a while for it to take effect? It seems that way too sometimes. I should say at this point that we are only talking about the final refinements to what is fundamentally a great sound, but still I want to get it cracked, before I have to decide what loading plugs to request from Ollie for the BB3.
As an example, the other day I was playing a record (Massive Attack - Protection) and there seemed to be a lot of sibilance on the Ss of the vocals. I whacked the loading way up to 470ohms and that seemed to rein it in and it sounded just right - still detailed but not spitty. Then the next day I was playing something and it sounded a bit flat, so I turned the loading back down and it didn’t seem to make any difference. Today I played Massive Attack again and it sounded fine on the lower setting - no sibilance!
I am doing something fundamentally wrong/dumb here, or is it that the effect of cartridge loading really is subtle enough as to be beneath the ‘noise floor’ of mood and what else your ears have had to contend with that day etc. etc.?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Cheers
Dan
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 27, 2021 21:12:43 GMT
Hi all, I joined fairly recently and this is my first ‘proper’ thread. I’m hoping to tap into the collective wisdom on here with regards to MC cartridge loading. I want to crack the optimum loading for my cartridge (Cadenza Bronze) before I receive my much anticipated BB3 and I’m not finding it quite as easy as just experimenting to see what sounds best. Per my sig I’m currently using an NJC SUT and Phono preamp. The SUT has various loading options in reasonably fine increments at both +20db and +26db settings. The recommended loading for the CB is 50-200ohms. As I understand it the higher the loading the more this controls the high frequencies but too high and they will be constrained and the whole sound be too ‘tight’ and lacking in energy; lower it and it allows for a more open sound, but too low and the treble with sound ragged and sibilant. Does that sound about right? The problem I have is that I’m finding that the results I get are inconsistent. What sounds sublime one day will sound a little shut-in the next. Sometimes I’ll change the loading and tell a difference, sometimes I’ll change it and can’t hear any. Sometimes I’ll change it and the effect will seem like it’s the opposite of what it should be! It’s quite frustrating. Is it possible that you make a change to the loading and it takes a while for it to take effect? It seems that way too sometimes. I should say at this point that we are only talking about the final refinements to what is fundamentally a great sound, but still I want to get it cracked, before I have to decide what loading plugs to request from Ollie for the BB3. As an example, the other day I was playing a record (Massive Attack - Protection) and there seemed to be a lot of sibilance on the Ss of the vocals. I whacked the loading way up to 470ohms and that seemed to rein it in and it sounded just right - still detailed but not spitty. Then the next day I was playing something and it sounded a bit flat, so I turned the loading back down and it didn’t seem to make any difference. Today I played Massive Attack again and it sounded fine on the lower setting - no sibilance! I am doing something fundamentally wrong/dumb here, or is it that the effect of cartridge loading really is subtle enough as to be beneath the ‘noise floor’ of mood and what else your ears have had to contend with that day etc. etc.? Thanks in advance for any advice. Cheers Dan Hi Dan, Others may disagree here, but I always found that increasing the load over 250R always made everything sound a little unhinged or ragged. IME what you are experiencing is pretty common. I don't know the Phonostage you have, but a lot of them I have had here were always a little hit and miss with loading. 220R on a valve Phonostage seemed to be too high on a SS phonostage I'm not sure why that would be. Anyway, fear not. Your cart is a tried and tested cartridge and I prescribed 100R on that particular cartridge with great effect in the past. When required, I have sold full sets of plugs with the following values: 70R, 100R, 220R, 300R & 470R They have been the most common values requested. |
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dt79
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Jan 27, 2021 21:16:25 GMT
Hi all, I joined fairly recently and this is my first ‘proper’ thread. I’m hoping to tap into the collective wisdom on here with regards to MC cartridge loading. I want to crack the optimum loading for my cartridge (Cadenza Bronze) before I receive my much anticipated BB3 and I’m not finding it quite as easy as just experimenting to see what sounds best. Per my sig I’m currently using an NJC SUT and Phono preamp. The SUT has various loading options in reasonably fine increments at both +20db and +26db settings. The recommended loading for the CB is 50-200ohms. As I understand it the higher the loading the more this controls the high frequencies but too high and they will be constrained and the whole sound be too ‘tight’ and lacking in energy; lower it and it allows for a more open sound, but too low and the treble with sound ragged and sibilant. Does that sound about right? The problem I have is that I’m finding that the results I get are inconsistent. What sounds sublime one day will sound a little shut-in the next. Sometimes I’ll change the loading and tell a difference, sometimes I’ll change it and can’t hear any. Sometimes I’ll change it and the effect will seem like it’s the opposite of what it should be! It’s quite frustrating. Is it possible that you make a change to the loading and it takes a while for it to take effect? It seems that way too sometimes. I should say at this point that we are only talking about the final refinements to what is fundamentally a great sound, but still I want to get it cracked, before I have to decide what loading plugs to request from Ollie for the BB3. As an example, the other day I was playing a record (Massive Attack - Protection) and there seemed to be a lot of sibilance on the Ss of the vocals. I whacked the loading way up to 470ohms and that seemed to rein it in and it sounded just right - still detailed but not spitty. Then the next day I was playing something and it sounded a bit flat, so I turned the loading back down and it didn’t seem to make any difference. Today I played Massive Attack again and it sounded fine on the lower setting - no sibilance! I am doing something fundamentally wrong/dumb here, or is it that the effect of cartridge loading really is subtle enough as to be beneath the ‘noise floor’ of mood and what else your ears have had to contend with that day etc. etc.? Thanks in advance for any advice. Cheers Dan Hi Dan, Others may disagree here, but I always found that increasing the load over 250R always made everything sound a little unhinged or ragged. IME what you are experiencing is pretty common. I don't know the Phonostage you have, but a lot of them I have had here were always a little hit and miss with loading. 220R on a valve Phonostage seemed to be too high on a SS phonostage I'm not sure why that would be. Anyway, fear not. Your cart is a tried and tested cartridge and I prescribed 100R on that particular cartridge with great effect in the past. When required, I have sold full sets of plugs with the following values: 70R, 100R, 220R, 300R & 470R They have been the most common values requested. Thanks Ollie, that’s reassuring. Out of interest did you get your hands on the Cadenza bronze you were planning to borrow yet? |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 27, 2021 21:18:35 GMT
Hi Dan, Others may disagree here, but I always found that increasing the load over 250R always made everything sound a little unhinged or ragged. IME what you are experiencing is pretty common. I don't know the Phonostage you have, but a lot of them I have had here were always a little hit and miss with loading. 220R on a valve Phonostage seemed to be too high on a SS phonostage I'm not sure why that would be. Anyway, fear not. Your cart is a tried and tested cartridge and I prescribed 100R on that particular cartridge with great effect in the past. When required, I have sold full sets of plugs with the following values: 70R, 100R, 220R, 300R & 470R They have been the most common values requested. Thanks Ollie, that’s reassuring. Out of interest did you get your hands on the Cadenza bronze you were planning to borrow yet? No, not yet. I've not been very well for a few weeks, so Loaning HiFi bits has fallen into the rear view mirror for the time being. I have been trying to get the outstanding work out of the door as a priority. |
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Post by stevew on Jan 27, 2021 21:19:37 GMT
Hi Dan
I’m sure you’ll have some advice on cartridge loading along shortly.
Not an area I know anything about.
However I seem to recall you have a Lyngdorf. Can I suggest you get into the Lyngdorf menu and find ‘input sensitivity’.
If it’s anything like mine then each input channel can be adjusted up and down.
I added some newer kit and hadn’t realised that the input had been set too high for its output. No wonder it distorted.
Possibly not an issue, but might be worth resetting it.
Just a random thought.
Cheers and good luck.
By the way... the BB3 is outstanding (I have one) and I’ve adjusted my setting up +12db without any distortion issues but just to equalise the volume levels when switching between inputs.
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dt79
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Jan 27, 2021 23:12:32 GMT
Thanks Ollie, that’s reassuring. Out of interest did you get your hands on the Cadenza bronze you were planning to borrow yet? No, not yet. I've not been very well for a few weeks, so Loaning HiFi bits has fallen into the rear view mirror for the time being. I have been trying to get the outstanding work out of the door as a priority. Hope you get well soon! |
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dt79
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Jan 27, 2021 23:14:52 GMT
Hi Dan I’m sure you’ll have some advice on cartridge loading along shortly. Not an area I know anything about. However I seem to recall you have a Lyngdorf. Can I suggest you get into the Lyngdorf menu and find ‘input sensitivity’. If it’s anything like mine then each input channel can be adjusted up and down. I added some newer kit and hadn’t realised that the input had been set too high for its output. No wonder it distorted. Possibly not an issue, but might be worth resetting it. Just a random thought. Cheers and good luck. By the way... the BB3 is outstanding (I have one) and I’ve adjusted my setting up +12db without any distortion issues but just to equalise the volume levels when switching between inputs. That’s an excellent suggestion Steve, thank you. Where I’ve been switching between the different gain settings on my SUT I have been adjusting the input sensitivity on the Lyngdorf and right now I think it might be maxed out to get the level comparable with other sources, so that’s probably worth a look. |
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 28, 2021 0:34:34 GMT
The impedance of your step up will be different on different taps, so as you adjust gain on it you need to do the same on the cart loading
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Post by antonio on Jan 28, 2021 1:19:38 GMT
Well I remember RD saying something to the effect, "470R should suit all mc's with a well designed phono stage" and also, he disliked SUT's I'm a very happy user of a NVA phono stage  |
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dt79
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Jan 28, 2021 7:43:11 GMT
The impedance of your step up will be different on different taps, so as you adjust gain on it you need to do the same on the cart loading Thanks. The SUT came with detailed specs for the various impedance settings at the different gain settings, so I have been doing that. |
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dt79
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Jan 28, 2021 7:49:42 GMT
Well I remember RD saying something to the effect, "470R should suit all mc's with a well designed phono stage" and also, he disliked SUT's I'm a very happy user of a NVA phono stage Ollie also shared his dislike of SUTs. When I was doing my research a few years ago I didn’t see any downsides, everyone seemed to agree that an SUT was the best way to perform the initial gain for a MC. What’s the theoretical or practical case against an SUT? |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 28, 2021 9:16:10 GMT
Well I remember RD saying something to the effect, "470R should suit all mc's with a well designed phono stage" and also, he disliked SUT's I'm a very happy user of a NVA phono stage Ahhhh, Richard Dunn. Yes, he had the opinion that 470R was ideal for every MC cartridge. He was wrong IMO. "well designed phonostages" don't have loading options for no reason. My HA103-SEL sounded at its best at 70R. At 470R it was ragged sounding. Everything sounded loose, like a wheel about to fall off a car. RD however was right about SUTs. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 28, 2021 9:36:42 GMT
Well I remember RD saying something to the effect, "470R should suit all mc's with a well designed phono stage" and also, he disliked SUT's I'm a very happy user of a NVA phono stage Ollie also shared his dislike of SUTs. When I was doing my research a few years ago I didn’t see any downsides, everyone seemed to agree that an SUT was the best way to perform the initial gain for a MC. What’s the theoretical or practical case against an SUT? SUTs: How many did you try? I tried over 10, ranging from super cheap to stupid money. Every one of them sounded different to the others. That was the problem. Some people buy HiFi equipment for its "sound signature" which is absolutely cool with me, but I wanted stuff that didn't leave the same sound signature on everything I listened to. Every SUT I tried (other than one of them) made a recognisable impression on the music. It became a characteristic on every track. I did not want that at all. The one that didn't was a Bob's device SUT...... So why didn't I buy one? Bandwidth. The Bob's SUT had a very neutral and uncolored midrange and bottom end, but it's HF was rolled off. There was a curtailment of the HF extension and that became the catalyst for Alan and I to dive into Jfets to perform the same job. Greater bandwidth is available using SS. But SUTS are quieter!? Well, yes and no. SUTs don't have any electronic noise. They are a passive device and as such they are very quiet..... but they do ring. Ringing is passed into the signal as distortion. Ringing can be heard as almost a halo effect on the music. Think of valves and the euphonic sound they can make and you're on the same track. I heard this very clearly through a DIY SUT I loaned. The SUTS were not the greatest quality but still, it's something that SUTS have, just in varying degrees. A well designed phonostage can have just as low noise as a Phonostage using a SUT. The Paradise Phonostage is one that is VERY quiet, and that is a total SS design. The most important thing is that there is no right way to do HiFi. The only thing any of us can do is find the path we want to be on and enjoy the sound we get. If you prefer the sound of your vinyl with a SUT in place, then you should use one. 👍 |
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Post by mikeyb on Jan 28, 2021 10:08:43 GMT
We’re assuming the cartridge is set up correctly, I had exactly the same experience as Dan and was constantly changing the loading, the tracking, azimuth, the VTA etc until just recently my cartridge started to sing, my vinyl sound seem to change as often as the weather before I got to where it is today.
I now have it spot on but took forever, much hair pulling AND various cartridges, phono stages, headlamps and suts to get to the sound I like.
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Post by antonio on Jan 28, 2021 11:56:15 GMT
Well I remember RD saying something to the effect, "470R should suit all mc's with a well designed phono stage" and also, he disliked SUT's I'm a very happy user of a NVA phono stage Ollie also shared his dislike of SUTs. When I was doing my research a few years ago I didn’t see any downsides, everyone seemed to agree that an SUT was the best way to perform the initial gain for a MC. What’s the theoretical or practical case against an SUT? I've got no bloody idea |
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dt79
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Jan 28, 2021 11:57:42 GMT
We’re assuming the cartridge is set up correctly, I had exactly the same experience as Dan and was constantly changing the loading, the tracking, azimuth, the VTA etc until just recently my cartridge started to sing, my vinyl sound seem to change as often as the weather before I got to where it is today. I now have it spot on but took forever, much hair pulling AND various cartridges, phono stages, headlamps and suts to get to the sound I like. The cartridge is set-up as well as I think i'm capable of doing - certainly the alignment and azimuth are bang on. I have tweaked the VTA (yes I have always reset VTF) quite a lot to get the best out of it, and I think i'm pretty much on the recommended SRA (as well as I can tell with 2* mk1 eyeballs and a loupe). I've set anti-skate using the 'deflection method' - i.e. set anti-skate so that when you drop the stylus on the middle of a spinning record, the cantilever doesn't deflect one way or the other but stays central. The only thing I haven't experimented with is VTF which I've just left at the recommended value. For now i've backed off the input gain on my amp quite a bit and set the SUT to +26db and ~100ohms. I'm going to live with that for a little while and see how I get on. I think constantly making snap judgements and tweaking doesn't help matters. |
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Post by firebottle on Jan 28, 2021 12:49:24 GMT
Cost.
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dt79
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Jan 30, 2021 10:15:25 GMT
Things are sounding really good now, thanks for advice everyone. I made another teeny tweak to the VTA, reduced the input gain on my amp to +12db ( stevew ), increased the gain on the phono preamp from Low to Med to make up for it and set the SUT to +26db, and 107R. The treble has certainly cleaned up and is resolving more fine detail (just noticed a really lovely decay on Air - Talkie Walkie, last track) and the bass has tightened up a bit as well. Compared to how it’s sounding now, it was a mess before. @bigman80 to answer your question from earlier, I’ve only tried one SUT, so I really don’t have any experience of how they compare and it is interesting to note yours. When I got my current TT it was a package including a Clearaudio Concept MC cartridge, so I just went for the SUT from NJC that matched by Phono preamp. Previously I’d only heard MM or HOMC cartridges on a Techie 1210mk2 into the NJC phono pre and the new TT with Concept MC was a big step-up so and sounded great, so I never really questioned and couldn’t really discern the effect of the SUT in all of that. It doesn’t seem add any overt signature to me. It feels like a lottery getting all of these varied permutations correct, but when you do, it’s a great feeling. |
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Post by stevew on Jan 30, 2021 10:42:11 GMT
Things are sounding really good now, thanks for advice everyone. I made another teeny tweak to the VTA, reduced the input gain on my amp to +12db ( stevew ), increased the gain on the phono preamp from Low to Med to make up for it and set the SUT to +26db, and 107R. The treble has certainly cleaned up and is resolving more fine detail (just noticed a really lovely decay on Air - Talkie Walkie, last track) and the bass has tightened up a bit as well. Compared to how it’s sounding now, it was a mess before. @bigman80 to answer your question from earlier, I’ve only tried one SUT, so I really don’t have any experience of how they compare and it is interesting to note yours. When I got my current TT it was a package including a Clearaudio Concept MC cartridge, so I just went for the SUT from NJC that matched by Phono preamp. Previously I’d only heard MM or HOMC cartridges on a Techie 1210mk2 into the NJC phono pre and the new TT with Concept MC was a big step-up so and sounded great, so I never really questioned and couldn’t really discern the effect of the SUT in all of that. It doesn’t seem add any overt signature to me. It feels like a lottery getting all of these varied permutations correct, but when you do, it’s a great feeling. Well done ! Top result. Think I need to attend to my cartridge set up as well... moved things around a couple of times since it was originally set, particularly the vta Cheers |
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