Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 20, 2020 7:53:37 GMT
Panzerholz is king.....there is NO doubt about it.
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Post by karma67 on Oct 20, 2020 9:12:16 GMT
I used to think that until I tried a CLD armboard
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Post by electronumpty on Oct 20, 2020 10:55:44 GMT
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 20, 2020 20:32:50 GMT
That is a very interesting thread as you say, however the one guy who everyone keeps ignoring is the only guy who actually knows what he talking about IMO! "as ALWAYS, there seems to be a complete misunderstanding as to what cld (constrained layer damping) is. It is NOT three or more layers of different (or the same) materials, stuck together in layers in the vain hope that vibrations will be tamed. Some vibrations may be tamed, but not by the cld principle.
True cld is a thin panel of a vibrating, low damping material covered with a very thin viscoelastic layer, which is constrained by another thin layer of material, often the same as the first layer.
I have used 3M 2552 'damping tape', which is 0.25mm of aluminium foil (10 mil in old money) with a 0.13mm (5 mil) viscoelastic layer. It is expensive (over £100 per roll), and it works.
The cld layer works by constraining the shear (sideways movement) of the viscoelastic layer. If this isn't allowed to happen ( by massive constructions), it will not work.
Corian ® has about the same damping factor as birch ply, that material so beloved of audiophiles, which does very little to damp vibrations. In fact, there is no need to use true cld if plinth materials are chosen carefully, and use materials which have high intrinsic damping. Same goes for arm boards"Thing is with CLD, if you clamp it down, say by bolting it down to a plinth (if used an an armboard), you are effectively stopping or at least hindering it from doing what it was designed to do! See here: "Corian ® has about the same damping factor as birch ply, that material so beloved of audiophiles, which does very little to damp vibrations. In fact, there is no need to use true cld if plinth materials are chosen carefully, and use materials which have high intrinsic damping. Same goes for arm boards" Panzerholz has some of the best figures available for use in plinths.....although typically i can't find the bloody link to the test page i looked at when i first got mine. I'm not saying CLD doesn't work btw, just that it's not as simple to do as people think. |
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Post by karma67 on Oct 21, 2020 4:27:10 GMT
That is a very interesting thread as you say, however the one guy who everyone keeps ignoring is the only guy who actually knows what he talking about IMO! "as ALWAYS, there seems to be a complete misunderstanding as to what cld (constrained layer damping) is. It is NOT three or more layers of different (or the same) materials, stuck together in layers in the vain hope that vibrations will be tamed. Some vibrations may be tamed, but not by the cld principle.
True cld is a thin panel of a vibrating, low damping material covered with a very thin viscoelastic layer, which is constrained by another thin layer of material, often the same as the first layer.
I have used 3M 2552 'damping tape', which is 0.25mm of aluminium foil (10 mil in old money) with a 0.13mm (5 mil) viscoelastic layer. It is expensive (over £100 per roll), and it works.
The cld layer works by constraining the shear (sideways movement) of the viscoelastic layer. If this isn't allowed to happen ( by massive constructions), it will not work.
Corian ® has about the same damping factor as birch ply, that material so beloved of audiophiles, which does very little to damp vibrations. In fact, there is no need to use true cld if plinth materials are chosen carefully, and use materials which have high intrinsic damping. Same goes for arm boards"Thing is with CLD, if you clamp it down, say by bolting it down to a plinth (if used an an armboard), you are effectively stopping or at least hindering it from doing what it was designed to do! I beg to differ,my CLD armboard DOES work correctly as it was designed also by someone who also knows what he's talking about. i agree with what he said about loosing the effect by bolting it down however the way mine is attached its not relevant. i have tried a panzerholz armboard back to back with the CLD design and the CLD to my ears is better which is why its staying put.
By the way please dont think im knocking panzerholz,my plinth is made with it as well as the feet,but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
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Post by jimbo on Oct 21, 2020 5:50:44 GMT
Yeah, take a slab of heavy MDF and bolt a 1/4 inch thick plate of steel to the bottom. That will damp your plinth. Its what VPI do!
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,407
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 21, 2020 6:57:01 GMT
That is a very interesting thread as you say, however the one guy who everyone keeps ignoring is the only guy who actually knows what he talking about IMO! "as ALWAYS, there seems to be a complete misunderstanding as to what cld (constrained layer damping) is. It is NOT three or more layers of different (or the same) materials, stuck together in layers in the vain hope that vibrations will be tamed. Some vibrations may be tamed, but not by the cld principle.
True cld is a thin panel of a vibrating, low damping material covered with a very thin viscoelastic layer, which is constrained by another thin layer of material, often the same as the first layer.
I have used 3M 2552 'damping tape', which is 0.25mm of aluminium foil (10 mil in old money) with a 0.13mm (5 mil) viscoelastic layer. It is expensive (over £100 per roll), and it works.
The cld layer works by constraining the shear (sideways movement) of the viscoelastic layer. If this isn't allowed to happen ( by massive constructions), it will not work.
Corian ® has about the same damping factor as birch ply, that material so beloved of audiophiles, which does very little to damp vibrations. In fact, there is no need to use true cld if plinth materials are chosen carefully, and use materials which have high intrinsic damping. Same goes for arm boards"Thing is with CLD, if you clamp it down, say by bolting it down to a plinth (if used an an armboard), you are effectively stopping or at least hindering it from doing what it was designed to do! I beg to differ,my CLD armboard DOES work correctly as it was designed also by someone who also knows what he's talking about. i agree with what he said about loosing the effect by bolting it down however the way mine is attached its not relevant. i have tried a panzerholz armboard back to back with the CLD design and the CLD to my ears is better which is why its staying put.
By the way please dont think im knocking panzerholz,my plinth is made with it as well as the feet,but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
I wasn't talking about your arm board matey. I touched on why armboards generally wouldn't work properly, as the guy I quoted mentioned them. That's all. I don't know how you've done yours? How is it fixed in place? And no, I didn't think you were knocking Panzerholz at all! After following your plinth build avidly, I know you rate the material highly. |
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Post by karma67 on Oct 21, 2020 12:27:12 GMT
I beg to differ,my CLD armboard DOES work correctly as it was designed also by someone who also knows what he's talking about. i agree with what he said about loosing the effect by bolting it down however the way mine is attached its not relevant. i have tried a panzerholz armboard back to back with the CLD design and the CLD to my ears is better which is why its staying put.
By the way please dont think im knocking panzerholz,my plinth is made with it as well as the feet,but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
I wasn't talking about your arm board matey. I touched on why armboards generally wouldn't work properly, as the guy I quoted mentioned them. That's all. I don't know how you've done yours? How is it fixed in place? And no, I didn't think you were knocking Panzerholz at all! After following your plinth build avidly, I know you rate the material highly. Mine is as made as described by the guy from diy audio,nothing from the top layer touches the bottom layer and vice versa . |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,407
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 21, 2020 15:55:32 GMT
I wasn't talking about your arm board matey. I touched on why armboards generally wouldn't work properly, as the guy I quoted mentioned them. That's all. I don't know how you've done yours? How is it fixed in place? And no, I didn't think you were knocking Panzerholz at all! After following your plinth build avidly, I know you rate the material highly. Mine is as made as described by the guy from diy audio,nothing from the top layer touches the bottom layer and vice versa . Ok, but how is it held in place? |
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Post by rexton on Oct 21, 2020 19:31:15 GMT
Panzerholz has a high damping factor of between 0.6 and 0.9 but it's dependent upon the Hz of the vibration your trying to dampen. Lenco's have an achilles heel and that's vibration being passed from the idler wheel into the platter so to some extent it's more important with properly address the idler rather than worry about plinth material. CLD is something I understand but the most optimal variations of CLD are something I don't understand and TBH I don't have the time or inclination to be bothered. I understand that that Panerholz has been widely assessed and understood and generally users of Panzerholz plinth have seen positive results. So, on that basis I'm sticking with Panzerholz. If the argument for CLD can be proven then I might change my mind otherwise I'm keeping it simple and sticking with what I know.... Over and out...!
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,407
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 21, 2020 21:14:36 GMT
I wasn't talking about your arm board matey. I touched on why armboards generally wouldn't work properly, as the guy I quoted mentioned them. That's all. I don't know how you've done yours? How is it fixed in place? And no, I didn't think you were knocking Panzerholz at all! After following your plinth build avidly, I know you rate the material highly. Mine is as made as described by the guy from diy audio,nothing from the top layer touches the bottom layer and vice versa . Also, how is the tonearm bass fixed to it? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2020 8:03:05 GMT
If you have bass in your tonearm, you will have real tracking issues.  Yes, I know what you mean, and it is probably an autocorrect issue, but.....  |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,407
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 22, 2020 8:35:22 GMT
If you have bass in your tonearm, you will have real tracking issues. Yes, I know what you mean, and it is probably an autocorrect issue, but..... bloody autocorrect! lol |
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Post by karma67 on Oct 23, 2020 5:44:46 GMT
Panzerholz has a high damping factor of between 0.6 and 0.9 but it's dependent upon the Hz of the vibration your trying to dampen. Lenco's have an achilles heel and that's vibration being passed from the idler wheel into the platter so to some extent it's more important with properly address the idler rather than worry about plinth material. CLD is something I understand but the most optimal variations of CLD are something I don't understand and TBH I don't have the time or inclination to be bothered. I understand that that Panerholz has been widely assessed and understood and generally users of Panzerholz plinth have seen positive results. So, on that basis I'm sticking with Panzerholz. If the argument for CLD can be proven then I might change my mind otherwise I'm keeping it simple and sticking with what I know.... Over and out...! I missed this post, Yeah fair point, however I approach things differently , I like to try things proven or not and decide for myself. It’s a win/win situation as far as I’m concerned. |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,407
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 23, 2020 8:02:46 GMT
Panzerholz has a high damping factor of between 0.6 and 0.9 but it's dependent upon the Hz of the vibration your trying to dampen. Lenco's have an achilles heel and that's vibration being passed from the idler wheel into the platter so to some extent it's more important with properly address the idler rather than worry about plinth material. CLD is something I understand but the most optimal variations of CLD are something I don't understand and TBH I don't have the time or inclination to be bothered. I understand that that Panerholz has been widely assessed and understood and generally users of Panzerholz plinth have seen positive results. So, on that basis I'm sticking with Panzerholz. If the argument for CLD can be proven then I might change my mind otherwise I'm keeping it simple and sticking with what I know.... Over and out...! I missed this post, Yeah fair point, however I approach things differently , I like to try things proven or not and decide for myself. It’s a win/win situation as far as I’m concerned. Think you missed mine about how the arm base is fixed to the arm board. |
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Post by karma67 on Oct 23, 2020 9:11:47 GMT
Sorry mate that’s classified
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 23, 2020 10:21:12 GMT
How about a decouple spindle top and felt mat to decouple the 5ecotd from the idler/platter?
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,407
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 23, 2020 11:38:30 GMT
Sorry mate that’s classified Ok, well if that's the case, a simple yes or no to: is it bolted through? That's all I'm asking about. I don't need the full ins and outs of how it's assembled and designed |
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Post by karma67 on Oct 23, 2020 12:16:07 GMT
Sorry mate that’s classified Ok, well if that's the case, a simple yes or no to: is it bolted through? That's all I'm asking about. I don't need the full ins and outs of how it's assembled and designed It’s bolted in the conventional manner without compromising the CLD principle . |
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,407
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 23, 2020 13:09:00 GMT
Ok, well if that's the case, a simple yes or no to: is it bolted through? That's all I'm asking about. I don't need the full ins and outs of how it's assembled and designed It’s bolted in the conventional manner without compromising the CLD principle . Okay? So nut on one side, bolt through the arm base and all the layers of the CLD armboard and then clamped down to make the arm base firmly fixed to the arm board? If thats the case, i a seriously intrigued as to *HOW* it isnt compromising the CLD principle, as in conventional fixings like the one i have described, the very fact you clamp anything through the CLD layers (top to bottom) would render it useless in the principle....But obviously how that has been achieved without this happening will be classified? Where did you get it? Ynwan? Also, by using a CLD arm base, if it is really CLD.......you have effectivly built a Houdini into your turntable. This is now a very interesting subject IMO |
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Post by karma67 on Oct 23, 2020 15:55:19 GMT
It’s bolted in the conventional manner without compromising the CLD principle . Okay? So nut on one side, bolt through the arm base and all the layers of the CLD armboard and then clamped down to make the arm base firmly fixed to the arm board? nope. none of the above.If thats the case, i a seriously intrigued as to *HOW* it isnt compromising the CLD principle, as in conventional fixings like the one i have described, the very fact you clamp anything through the CLD layers (top to bottom) would render it useless in the principle....But obviously how that has been achieved without this happening will be classified? it isn't the case,by conventional i mean only that 3 bolts are used to attach the armboard as per the sony standard armboard.Where did you get it? Ynwan? Also, by using a CLD arm base, if it is really CLD.......you have effectivly built a Houdini into your turntable. This is now a very interesting subject IMO i made it myself,and yes it really is CLD,it is also fully adjustable for level in all directions.im not being deliberately obstructive but i cant really say any more as the designer asked me not to make details of its construction or materials public. i respect that .i do however has plans to make one in panzerholz to compare. |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,407
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 23, 2020 16:19:59 GMT
Okay? So nut on one side, bolt through the arm base and all the layers of the CLD armboard and then clamped down to make the arm base firmly fixed to the arm board? nope. none of the above.If thats the case, i a seriously intrigued as to *HOW* it isnt compromising the CLD principle, as in conventional fixings like the one i have described, the very fact you clamp anything through the CLD layers (top to bottom) would render it useless in the principle....But obviously how that has been achieved without this happening will be classified? it isn't the case,by conventional i mean only that 3 bolts are used to attach the armboard as per the sony standard armboard.Where did you get it? Ynwan? Also, by using a CLD arm base, if it is really CLD.......you have effectivly built a Houdini into your turntable. This is now a very interesting subject IMO i made it myself,and yes it really is CLD,it is also fully adjustable for level in all directions.im not being deliberately obstructive but i cant really say any more as the designer asked me not to make details of its construction or materials public. i respect that .i do however has plans to make one in panzerholz to compare.Fair enough matey. I respect the designers wishes also and will not probe any further, but i am very intrigued as to what you have been up to. Carry on! |
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Post by rexton on Oct 23, 2020 20:29:01 GMT
Total mass dampeners are now what I'm looking into. Interesting subject. I always find it really funny that no-one is interested in the principles of how these things work but yet they are happy to spend Sh#t loads of money on bollocks with no scientific basis.
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Post by misterc on Nov 1, 2020 8:32:24 GMT
Andrew following on from our conversation the other day.
As you have an adjust plus set up you can qualify your hum issue very easily
By setting up the full frequency sweep with both the Paradise and the EAR copy you will be able to see any mains frequency artifacts that either of phono stage as long as the ADC youe using is at least 16 bits the resolution should be sufficient to identify any anomalies quite straight forwardily
The adjust plus has many useful features including full frequency sweeps tone arm vibration, cartridge lifing etc.
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Post by rexton on Nov 1, 2020 17:01:56 GMT
Andrew following on from our conversation the other day. As you have an adjust plus set up you can qualify your hum issue very easily By setting up the full frequency sweep with both the Paradise and the EAR copy you will be able to see any mains frequency artifacts that either of phono stage as long as the ADC youe using is at least 16 bits the resolution should be sufficient to identify any anomalies quite straight forwardily The adjust plus has many useful features including full frequency sweeps tone arm vibration, cartridge lifing etc. Tony,
Many thanks for taking me through the things that you highlighted, very much appreciated. I've made a few changes to the Phoenix, firstly the Tachometer is now running from an Anker 12V battery which works very well and has removed a considerable amount of hum from the speakers. Secondly the EAR is now powered from the mains socket rather than the PS Audio P10, again another small improvement with less hum. Finally, I've a rather large Linear PSU powering the Phoenix PSU and hum has all but been eliminated. I'm getting a little transformer hum through the speakers but that's always been their even when using the Paradise. I for one now have a healthy respect for power management. I'm happy with the way things are at the moment. A lot of the things you mention with Adjust plus are a little over my head so I guess I need to get my head into a few text books.
Andy
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