Neurochrome 686 or Pass F3?

I don't doubt the ability of people to hear what doesn't exist, or claim things that are simply not true. HIFI manufacturers seem to have a knack for taking something that *could* be true in the Nth degree, and making that their selling point even though in all reality there is very little chance that it could do what it says.

Take cable risers for instance. Is it possible that static electricity could be built up on a carpet, and that in theory that static electricity *could* creep through the jacket of a cable and thus cause signal interference?

Well, yes it is.....but only if your cable's dielectric is as thin as snakeskin, your carpet was made of wool, and you had 5000 people in your listening room shuffling their feet to generate the required amount of static. (Dramatisation for example only and not exact science)

In reality, there is very little chance that lifting your cable off the carpet will scientifically have any effect, but manufacturers make them from exotic woods and elaborate designs and relieve willing audiophiles of £5k in some case.

***Previous content removed due to being inaccurate....smacks own hand***

In that scenario, i am totally with you macca I do not trust what i hear or read.

However, anecdotal reports of things like house sound are imo usually much easier to accept, because i have experienced that.

Denon have a particular sound to their cartridges, and regardless of what model it is, i have heard it. Same With Ortofon, it just so happens that i think Ortofon match my expectation of how the should be.

I remember hearing Alan's Firebotttle plus and thinking how impressed i was with its wide open presentation. Then the Vivant, which sounded like a better version of the FB+, then the OTP1, 2&3 and they all kept that signature wide open sound, but with varying degrees of performance. The BB3, that Alan designed also does the same thing....so Alan's house sound is very apparent.

Talking to Alan and working with him on certain products like the BB3 have given me an understanding of how he achieves it, and I now know why most others don't.

Well, capacitors for instance have a profound effect on sound and it's all about construction. Electrolytics are often not used in signal path applications due to the following:

* less linear with frequency
* SR varies with frequency and temperature (Higher ESR is Bad)
* They have higher dielectric absorption (memory)
* They can dry up and drift off tolerance

However, there are some (as used in the BT2 and Avalon) that buck the trend and are superior in many ways to Polyprops.

That said, not all PP caps are equal either.

Some are rolled sheets of metalized PP(metal alloy sprayed onto one side of the sheet) and then rolled up to form the cap, and some have a seperate sheet of metal, usually aluminum foil/copper and a sheet of PP and then they are rolled together to for the cap.

This makes a difference to how they behave and thus has an effect on the sound the instrument produces.

Again, with resistors, the type of metal used to form the metal film can have an effect on the sound quality.

It's all about how well the voltage is preserved through these passive components, and how much noise each component imparts onto that voltage.

You may think "how much noise can 1 resistor make?" but look at the BB3, there are over 50 resistors, and the higher in resistance value they go, the noiser they are.

everything matters in every bit of kit we listen to. That has been my experience

lol, absolutely!

Seriously, i had a guy at my house very recently collecting a BB3, who brought with him a ridiculously expensive mains cable. I'm talking about it costing him 4 figures. Ever intrigued by such things and totally willing to make one myself should it deserve the spend, we tried it.

He was adamant that it would be better than my Home-made Shielded Beldens. I stuck it into my 686 and sat there while he soiled himself over the "tighter bass" "blacker background" and "improved depth"

It absolutely did not do that. It had absolutley zero effect for the positive IMO and in fact, i was pretty adamant myself that it sounded worse in almost every fathomable area. Yet his belief was entirely unshaken, even when i could quite easily demonstrate that somehow we had lost a shed loasd of transient response, High frequency extension and the sound audibly became mushy and smeared.

I am not sure why any of that happened btw, as i am pretty unconvinced over the benefits of exotica in the mains link, but it did what it did.

he absolutely heard things that were not there.

But when we were listening to the DACs you reckoned there were big differences between them in the depth of soundstage, which I didn't hear at all. So was that real or was it Memorex? This is why measurements and blind-testing exist and have a purpose. 

When that Joni Mitchell track came on via the Soekris, you were transfixed. It was a bonafide "moment" that you remember long after the seeion. You said "yeah, my gut tells me its better" I am also sure you murmoured "unreal" too. Then, You instantly said "but then my head say...."

I am sat on your sofa laughing to myself because it was obviously better. The Piano was huge, and the decay on the piano was so long and clear that in comparison to the Topping, and the other dac (forgotten the name), it was clearly higher in resolution. Her voice was staggeringly life like IMHO. In the scheme of how the song presented, the little things made a big difference to me and pushed the replay from excellent to outstanding.

Since then you have talked yourself back, and back, and back into the thinking that there wasnt much between the topping and the Soekris because your head says it cant be so. Even though they are worlds apart in terms of design, power supply, toplogy etc. Your topping uses an old mobile phone charger, the Soekris uses a custom built dual Linear power supply, just for example. It's already been established by measurements and testing that SMPS have no place in hifi.

FWIW, I thought the topping was clearly harder in the Treble, and the Soncoz sounded a little softer and a little "friendlier"

I have no problem with the fact you weren't convinced enough to shell out on a R2R DAC, no problem at all, but for me, after what i heard at your house, i wouldn't touch either DAC you currently employ. I suspect i would draw the same conclusion at my house too, as i have listened to every DAC Topping have made and i have never bought one. We have done that comparison here and i knew then too that the Soekris was by far the better DAC, as did Alan, who promptly went out an bought a Pegasus. And then a Soekris after the Soekris Vs Pegasus comparison.

Either way......You are listening to a system you are enjoying, and so am I.

Which is what it's all about.

Tim has it spot on there. And it's easy to test in certain circuits where the amount of feedback can be adjusted.

In the case of naim amps, older ones, that 47uf lytic is right in the feedback path, right in the gain stage so it's none linearities, esr at different frequencies, leakage etc are amplified and made more distinct. It's pretty much the circuit you'd make if the task at hand was testing the audibility of that cap.

Apply that logic to a phonostage and parts providing the gain, and supporting parts, are even more critical due to the huge amount of gain. In a phonostage everything counts, in a unity gain buffer everything counts but 1500x less so.

I'd recommend trying a 686 before you shell out any money.

Some of these F5 clones sold on Wigwam a while back for £950 so they not mega-money like real Pass. 

Don't know if they are the exact same ones Hi Fi Nutt has www.hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/150624-sold-fs-pass-f5-clone-monoblocks/

If I have misunderstood the design, I wholeheartedly apologise.

I absolutely invite you to explain in exquisite detail as to how your arm works, and how it is beneficial or preferable over the Gimbal bearing types, or linear tracking types.

We love that sort of stuff here and if we can create a better understanding, I am all for it.

Don't be afraid to challenge anything on Audio Addicts. That's why we're here 👍

Good on ya!

Right, let's have a read.

thanks for that link , not sure if they are same amps as ones i have . they came from a different place . the pics wont load now