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Post by sq225917 on Jul 15, 2020 21:54:43 GMT
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 15, 2020 22:13:50 GMT
Just as I was thinking of going in the opposite direction, in terms of THD and SINAD. Very tempting price and looks the business but im not sure the Sabre chip is aurally pleasing to me. |
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Post by macca on Jul 16, 2020 6:14:53 GMT
Do DAC chips really have a 'signature sound' that doesn't show up in any of the measurements? I have my doubts.
There was the 'IMD hump' but now that's gone what's left?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 16, 2020 7:02:23 GMT
Do DAC chips really have a 'signature sound' that doesn't show up in any of the measurements? I have my doubts. There was the 'IMD hump' but now that's gone what's left? Well, all i can say is that I have had decent exposure to BB chips, Sabre Chips and AKM chips and they have all sounded different to each other, but i'd put money on recognising a Sabre chip from a BB chip....the AKM seems to be between the two and i wouldnt bet on picking an AKM out of the three. |
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Post by macca on Jul 16, 2020 8:00:21 GMT
But you can't listen to the chip in isolation, it has to be built into something. If you think that different makes of capacitors, resistors etc all have a signature sound - which I know you do - then how can you narrow down any perceived differences to being the DAC chip and not all the other electronic components in the box?
It just seems unlikely to me that in the process of converting a voltage representing a digital code to a voltage representing an analogue waveform that somehow a 'character' can be imposed that doesn't show up anywhere on the suite of measurements but that still somehow exists and can be heard.
If I was after a DAC the only thing that might tempt me to go for the Okto over countless is that it's a full width component. Looks better in the rack. The thing that would put me off is that it only has XLR connections. With the Soncoz I just bought the tipping points were the orange display and the fact that it does not need an annoying external 'wall wart' power thing. These things matter more to me than what chip is being used. That's a complete irrelevance as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2020 8:16:05 GMT
Yawn, yet another best amir special tedious self-flagellation for the FFT disciples of carefully selected only measurements brigade. *ADMIN EDIT: Sorry PB, no talk of other forums or its membership. Im very strict on this. Thanks in advance for your understanding* So lets just think about this for a moment, why not have a non biased, totally independent testing facility with more than just a AP555x and headphones running from a front room  that can provide untainted results that all publications could use both on line and printed media. At the same time they could perform a safety check to confirm CE status anything without or questionable should be rejected at that step. After this process then a group of non affiliated listeners draw from no companies or magazines or on line sites for a genuine listen against the next previous best ultra low distortion ,multiplexing, quantum computing sub space string predicting D2A Interesting that the sheriff on asr is an English chap based in the south west and not Simon as was first suggested  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 16, 2020 8:44:29 GMT
But you can't listen to the chip in isolation, it has to be built into something. If you think that different makes of capacitors, resistors etc all have a signature sound - which I know you do - then how can you narrow down any perceived differences to being the DAC chip and not all the other electronic components in the box? It just seems unlikely to me that in the process of converting a voltage representing a digital code to a voltage representing an analogue waveform that somehow a 'character' can be imposed that doesn't show up anywhere on the suite of measurements but that still somehow exists and can be heard. If I was after a DAC the only thing that might tempt me to go for the Okto over countless is that it's a full width component. Looks better in the rack. The thing that would put me off is that it only has XLR connections. With the Soncoz I just bought the tipping points were the orange display and the fact that it does not need an annoying external 'wall wart' power thing. These things matter more to me than what chip is being used. That's a complete irrelevance as far as I'm concerned. I see what you are saying, and yes, i get it but it the same way you can't listen to a TT platter or plinth materials on their own, you can absolutely identify the characteristics of the materials when in use with everything else. Now I realise that's not the same a signal processing but as ive stated many times, silicone chips, opamps and semiconductors do have a sound. The only real way to test the characteristics of the chips is to have a universal DAC with the ability to swap chips, but that won't happen, because its a ridiculous idea lol |
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Post by macca on Jul 16, 2020 11:42:20 GMT
But with a TT you can change one thing - just the platter, just the arm , just the cartridge, and sort of mentally deduct the other things and arrive at some sort of conclusion as to what that one change has made, and get an idea of its contribution. You just can't do that with a DAC, as you say. But I'd bet money if we did have a 'universal DAC' and swapped the chips over we wouldn't hear any difference at all.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 16, 2020 12:01:23 GMT
But with a TT you can change one thing - just the platter, just the arm , just the cartridge, and sort of mentally deduct the other things and arrive at some sort of conclusion as to what that one change has made, and get an idea of its contribution. You just can't do that with a DAC, as you say. But I'd bet money if we did have a 'universal DAC' and swapped the chips over we wouldn't hear any difference at all. RIGHT! we need a universal DAC, a venue and a wager...im up for it. Now, is a universal DAC possible? |
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Post by macca on Jul 16, 2020 12:34:37 GMT
I don't know. Where's Simon SQ when you need him?
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 16, 2020 16:56:59 GMT
My own dac very much alloys you to mix and match, source, psu on every stage, buffer fifo, dac board and iv stage.
I currently have 4 different output stages for it, 1612 op amp, lundahl 1544a, Lundahl 1674 and Bilsiek transforms. I prefer the latter.
Because of how its built I can swap clocks, swap power source to every rail independently and swap source from file sever, to pi to us bridge signature.
All that said I prefer the smsl400.
Re dac chips, I've owned 5 ess 9028/9038 dacs, only the Weiss 202 didn't sound like the others
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 16, 2020 18:06:52 GMT
My own dac very much alloys you to mix and match, source, psu on every stage, buffer fifo, dac board and iv stage. I currently have 4 different output stages for it, 1612 op amp, lundahl 1544a, Lundahl 1674 and Bilsiek transforms. I prefer the latter. Because of how its built I can swap clocks, swap power source to every rail independently and swap source from file sever, to pi to us bridge signature. All that said I prefer the smsl400. Re dac chips, I've owned 5 ess 9028/9038 dacs, only the Weiss 202 didn't sound like the others Did you buy a SMSL? |
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 16, 2020 19:05:06 GMT
Not yet
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Post by hudz on Jul 16, 2020 20:20:23 GMT
Still prefer the Phillips TDA1549 R2R chipset in my ancient Phillips cd player with a valve output stage to any delta-sigma chips I've heard, to me the further up the numbers game they go, the more artificial and lifeless they sound.
Apparently I also like distortion.
Anyone want to experiment on a Breeze Audio TDA1547 dac? Free of charge, just cover the postage and post your findings.
I'll post internal piccies if anyone's interested.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 16, 2020 21:04:06 GMT
Still prefer the Phillips TDA1547 R2R chipset in my ancient Phillips cd player with a valve output stage to any delta-sigma chips I've heard, to me the further up the numbers game they go, the more artificial and lifeless they sound. Apparently I also like distortion. Anyone want to experiment on a Breeze Audio TDA1545 dac? Free of charge, just cover the postage and post your findings. I'll post internal piccies if anyone's interested. Sure, let's have a looky |
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Post by hudz on Jul 16, 2020 21:39:25 GMT
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Post by hudz on Jul 16, 2020 21:40:07 GMT
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Post by hudz on Jul 16, 2020 21:47:27 GMT
No idea what all the bits and bobs do but it did come with a couple of upgrades, better transformers,output caps and rca sockets, allegedly.
Be a learning curve for you, possibly get Alan to design a cathode follower output for it. One worked wonders for my cd.
'scuse the crappy pics , I'll take some in daylight tomorrow.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 16, 2020 22:44:15 GMT
No idea what all the bits and bobs do but it did come with a couple of upgrades, better transformers,output caps and rca sockets, allegedly. Be a learning curve for you, possibly get Alan to design a cathode follower output for it. One worked wonders for my cd. 'scuse the crappy pics , I'll take some in daylight tomorrow. Ill give you postage for it.. defo. Drop me a PM with the details and I'll ping a few sovereigns over to cover it. This will be fun! |
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Post by firebottle on Jul 17, 2020 6:59:55 GMT
Love the floating earth! Not.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 17, 2020 7:16:56 GMT
Love the floating earth! Not. 🤣 |
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Post by hudz on Jul 17, 2020 8:29:27 GMT
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Post by hudz on Jul 17, 2020 8:30:38 GMT
And the bonus project Attachments:
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Post by hudz on Jul 17, 2020 8:39:14 GMT
Finally a half decent shot, Attachments:
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Post by firebottle on Jul 17, 2020 9:07:51 GMT
The bonus project TDA1543 isn't such a great performer. Tried one a good while back, distortion rises considerably (by modern standards) at lower levels. Cheap though  |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 17, 2020 9:31:49 GMT
The bonus project TDA1543 isn't such a great performer. Tried one a good while back, distortion rises considerably (by modern standards) at lower levels. Cheap though Thats OK, we can mine it for ideas. We're on a bit of a DAC tangent at the minute, so its all good. |
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Post by hudz on Jul 17, 2020 11:31:53 GMT
The bonus project TDA1543 isn't such a great performer. Tried one a good while back, distortion rises considerably (by modern standards) at lower levels. Cheap though Output was fairly noisy too, had to turn off the supertweeters when using it. |
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Post by hudz on Jul 17, 2020 11:33:01 GMT
the 1547 dacs chipset are all socketed so that may make it easier to mess with?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 17, 2020 22:57:42 GMT
the 1547 dacs chipset are all socketed so that may make it easier to mess with? Yes, should be fun...ill start a thread on it when it arrives. |
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that can provide untainted results that all publications could use both on line and printed media. At the same time they could perform a safety check to confirm CE status anything without or questionable should be rejected at that step.
