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Post by sq225917 on May 28, 2020 13:56:12 GMT
New dac arrived in the house yesterday, on loan. Audio science review will be doing measurements later this week, if it matches the manufacturers specs then it's the best measuring dac available for snr + the currently.
I dont like the look of it and the remote is cheap plastic, but the sound...
Its comfortably the most resolving dac I've ever heard from a couple of hundred hz upwards. So much so in fact that playing a track I know super well had me checking my speaker wiring for polarity, such was the difference and added layering in a multi tracked vocal I thought something must be plugged in wrong. Nah, that's how its recorded.
It doesnt have the most textured bass I've heard, but it could still be filling out as its box fresh.
It is the first dac I've had where the sound remains the same even at -40db on the volume pot, its utterly transparent in that respect.
It's amazing that this level of performance can be had for less than 700 notes.
I'm flabbergasted
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Post by antonio on May 28, 2020 14:11:10 GMT
I do like the looks of it Simon, guess my first thought was, how does it compare to the Topping D90? Enjoy your loan period with it, and maybe let us know if you think the bass improves.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 28, 2020 14:21:21 GMT
New dac arrived in the house yesterday, on loan. Audio science review will be doing measurements later this week, if it matches the manufacturers specs then it's the best measuring dac available for snr + the currently. I dont like the look of it and the remote is cheap plastic, but the sound... Its comfortably the most resolving dac I've ever heard from a couple of hundred hz upwards. So much so in fact that playing a track I know super well had me checking my speaker wiring for polarity, such was the difference and added layering in a multi tracked vocal I thought something must be plugged in wrong. Nah, that's how its recorded. It doesnt have the most textured bass I've heard, but it could still be filling out as its box fresh. It is the first dac I've had where the sound remains the same even at -40db on the volume pot, its utterly transparent in that respect. It's amazing that this level of performance can be had for less than 700 notes. I'm flabbergasted and there was me thinking all DACs sound the same lol We need Pics!!! |
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Post by firebottle on May 28, 2020 14:33:19 GMT
Excellent move trying out a new design, there is so much performance on offer with the latest chips.
Really pleased you are enjoying the transparency, I guess the bass will clean up with a few hours added.
Good one.
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Post by sq225917 on May 28, 2020 16:05:08 GMT
I'm a believer that all well measuring dacs 'should' sound the same. But throw an analogue output stage after the mathsy part and all bets are off.
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Post by Bigman80 on May 28, 2020 16:25:01 GMT
I'm a believer that all well measuring dacs 'should' sound the same. But throw an analogue output stage after the mathsy part and all bets are off. Ha, couldn't resist but yes I see your point. Looks a tasty morsel that SMSL...I like its aesthetic appeal |
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2020 17:21:02 GMT
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Post by sq225917 on May 29, 2020 11:19:24 GMT
Still loving this. Have to try it against the soncoz sgd1 ess chipped dac
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Post by macca on May 29, 2020 12:25:21 GMT
I'm a believer that all well measuring dacs 'should' sound the same. But throw an analogue output stage after the mathsy part and all bets are off. But if you're measuring the output, which is the only thing that matters, that's after the analogue output stage... Does make me wonder (again) if the accepted thresholds for being able to hear various distortions are correct. It's certainly the most wobbly bit of the 'science' after all. |
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Post by sq225917 on May 29, 2020 13:05:14 GMT
If you want a good read look up earl geddes investigation into the audibility of harmonic distribution.
0.1% of thd comprised purely of 2nd on it's own isnt audible or at least isnt annoying, 0.1% of thd comprised purely of 5th on its own apparently is.
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Post by firebottle on May 29, 2020 14:30:31 GMT
I'm a believer that all well measuring dacs 'should' sound the same. But throw an analogue output stage after the mathsy part and all bets are off. Surely the digital filter needs to be exactly the same for even a chance of sounding the same? |
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Post by macca on May 29, 2020 15:08:38 GMT
I had a Sony with 4 different filters, the differences ranged from tiny to none-existent. I wouldn't take a blind test with money at stake.
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Post by macca on May 29, 2020 15:30:22 GMT
If you want a good read look up earl geddes investigation into the audibility of harmonic distribution. 0.1% of thd comprised purely of 2nd on it's own isnt audible or at least isnt annoying, 0.1% of thd comprised purely of 5th on its own apparently is. I am familiar with it  Yes - even order THD is okay, maybe even pleasant, odd order is bad and gets worse as you go up the harmonics, but - If you have harmonic distortion of any kind then you must also have intermodulation distortion and it's IMD that's the sound killer as it isn't correlated with the music signal like the THD is, it's just doing its own thing. Of course you know this. But nevertheless my point is that all these DACs with distortion below -130db should all sound the same unless there's another factor not being taken into account. |
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Post by sq225917 on May 29, 2020 18:09:18 GMT
Alan, I'm not sure I hear a difference with filters, on my ess dac only the nos sounds different.
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Post by sq225917 on Jun 3, 2020 21:59:17 GMT
Tried it against the soncoz sgd1 today. I cant tell them apart
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 3, 2020 23:19:29 GMT
Tried it against the soncoz sgd1 today. I cant tell them apart Isnt the soncoz sgd1£300 cheaper? |
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Post by antonio on Jun 4, 2020 4:50:25 GMT
I don't think you're far off Oli. Purite said the price for the Soncoz is £458.
Edit: Just read on pfm Purite is selling for £400 inc. delivery.
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Post by macca on Jun 4, 2020 6:26:17 GMT
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 4, 2020 7:30:51 GMT
And the verdict is somewhat mixed. Measured performance is very Impressive though. Interesting that ASR has started what will be known as the "SINAD wars" in later years. A time when manufacturers sacrificed design aspects just to get the bet measurements. I'll stick with my PecanPi...... |
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Post by macca on Jun 4, 2020 7:59:52 GMT
I didn't see a mixed verdict?
Anyway the isn't really a verdict at all, that site is just about measuring, and you can do what you like with the information provided. Ignore it, base your buying decision entirely on it, or go somewhere in between. A lot of people don't seem to grasp that and wonder why there is no 'subjective' review. When you can get a subjective review of something from a thousand places but only ASR has the measurements.
One thing it has done has shown up manufacturers who claim their products are 'state of the art' when in reality they measure very poorly. I'm all for anything that forces manufacturers to cut out the bullshit.
I suspect the AMSL would be indistinguishable from your Pi. I'd bet big money on it. But that's to miss the point.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 4, 2020 8:29:53 GMT
I didn't see a mixed verdict? Anyway the isn't really a verdict at all, that site is just about measuring, and you can do what you like with the information provided. Ignore it, base your buying decision entirely on it, or go somewhere in between. A lot of people don't seem to grasp that and wonder why there is no 'subjective' review. When you can get a subjective review of something from a thousand places but only ASR has the measurements. One thing it has done has shown up manufacturers who claim their products are 'state of the art' when in reality they measure very poorly. I'm all for anything that forces manufacturers to cut out the bullshit. I suspect the AMSL would be indistinguishable from your Pi. I'd bet big money on it. But that's to miss the point. The mixed verdict on the output impedance and the decision to remove the buffer to keep the measurements high. I know they dont talk subjectively about the SQ etc. |
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Post by antonio on Jun 4, 2020 8:54:16 GMT
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 4, 2020 8:58:59 GMT
Shame that's not in our "review the kit" section.... SIMON!!! Lol |
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Post by macca on Jun 4, 2020 11:36:17 GMT
I didn't see a mixed verdict? Anyway the isn't really a verdict at all, that site is just about measuring, and you can do what you like with the information provided. Ignore it, base your buying decision entirely on it, or go somewhere in between. A lot of people don't seem to grasp that and wonder why there is no 'subjective' review. When you can get a subjective review of something from a thousand places but only ASR has the measurements. One thing it has done has shown up manufacturers who claim their products are 'state of the art' when in reality they measure very poorly. I'm all for anything that forces manufacturers to cut out the bullshit. I suspect the AMSL would be indistinguishable from your Pi. I'd bet big money on it. But that's to miss the point. The mixed verdict on the output impedance and the decision to remove the buffer to keep the measurements high. I know they dont talk subjectively about the SQ etc. Oh right. Well there's no standards for those things, wouldn't be the first product to have potential impedance matching issues with some other equipment. Just illustrates the value of measurements and their utility when it comes to practical application. Especially when you consider that the 'I just listen' crowd might match it poorly and decide that it was rubbish as a consequence. But if they'd read ASR they wouldn't have made that mistake. |
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Post by sq225917 on Jun 4, 2020 11:49:58 GMT
I tried both of them power amp direct. My amps ain't high gain by any stretch of the imagination at a paltry +16db. To get a sensible volume out of the SMSL I had to keep it within the first 10db of the dacs volume pot, ie almost completely attenuated. Now I know that the built in digital volume control is meant to be 'perfect' but throwing 70db of signal away doesnt sit right with me.
So it's the max output level not the modest impedance that's means my pre stays in the signal path. Ignore the output impedance it's a red herring.
Any power amp with a 10k or more input impedance wont give two shits. They arent sacrificing anything for better measurements by not having a 'buffer'.
I do listen quietly, but.
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Post by antonio on Jun 4, 2020 12:49:03 GMT
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Post by macca on Jun 21, 2020 8:29:09 GMT
I've ordered one of these Soncoz SGD1 DAC thingies, should be here tomorrow. Got a day off so hopefully it will arrive early doors and I'll have all day to try it out.
I decided the SMSL and the RME ADI2 were just too expensive. The Soncoz is still in the top tier on ASR and Simon reckoned he couldn't tell it apart reliably from the SMSL so I thought I'd take a punt on it. If it sounds no different to the DAC in the Oppo then it will be going back. Bought it off of Amazon so no problem with that, IME they don't muck you about with returns.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2020 9:26:30 GMT
Good luck with it and yep Amazon returns are a piece of cake!
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 21, 2020 22:27:27 GMT
I've ordered one of these Soncoz SGD1 DAC thingies, should be here tomorrow. Got a day off so hopefully it will arrive early doors and I'll have all day to try it out. I decided the SMSL and the RME ADI2 were just too expensive. The Soncoz is still in the top tier on ASR and Simon reckoned he couldn't tell it apart reliably from the SMSL so I thought I'd take a punt on it. If it sounds no different to the DAC in the Oppo then it will be going back. Bought it off of Amazon so no problem with that, IME they don't muck you about with returns. Good man! Now the fun starts lol |
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Post by antonio on Jun 22, 2020 4:52:43 GMT
Well done Macca, hope it works for you and will be looking forward to your findings. I think Simon on here couldn't tell the difference between it and the SMSL.
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