Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 17, 2020 11:30:24 GMT
This build has been in the pipeline for quite some time. I took part in the recent GB over on DIYaudio and bought some of Sylvain's PCBS, which included his PSU boards. sq225917 recommended ditching the PSU boards and using the ones he uses, so although no progress has been made as yet, I am collecting parts. The other interesting aspect of this build is that apart from me assembling the PSU, I wont be involved lol. Angus is undertaking the Phonostage PCB build and is doing some judicious modifications. Whilst I realise that this will be met with some consternation, I would like to add this point: I dont know if the Paradise *can* be improved....I dont know if the circuit is good or bad....all I know is Angus has spotted opportunities to try something different, that *may* be interesting. As Angus isnt a member here, I will do my best to relay what he's done that is different to the usual builds. This build is not going to be a "full bore, no expense" build. It's an investigative build, which is why Angus is doing it....he knows what hes talking about lol. What will be built as a no compromise offering, is the PSU. I will post pics as the stuff arrives and try and take as many pictures as possible, in the hope that if any member here, or anyone is as unsure of the build as I am, and has the PCBs, they can follow the blueprint. This will not be a quick build, so bed in for the long haul First up, I could do with a BOM for the PSU. Simon.......?    |
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Post by sq225917 on May 17, 2020 12:39:44 GMT
Transformers: 2x RS Stock No.671-9084 £14.08p each Common mode chokes: 4x Mouser stock 871-B82724J8162N040 £4.17p each Qspeed rectifier diodes: 8x Mouser stock 903-LQA06T300 £0.55p each Wima caps 10n, 5mm: 12x Mouser part number 505-MKP2D021001B00KS £0.33p Caps: Take your pick I prefer high riple and temp rated. Psu caps, take your pick any of these. The 10,000uf Nichicon probably offers the best mix. But they come in and out of stock all the time. Top 5 pus cap choicesand 16 spades. You'll also need to order a suitable set of dropper resistors to put the DC voltage going to the main boards at the sweet spot, 26-26.5v DC I like 30 watt Caddocks for this, but there's much cheaper options. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 17, 2020 13:18:29 GMT
Transformers: 2x RS Stock No.671-9084 £14.08p each Common mode chokes: 4x Mouser stock 871-B82724J8162N040 £4.17p each Qspeed rectifier diodes: 8x Mouser stock 903-LQA06T300 £0.55p each Wima caps 10n, 5mm: 12x Mouser part number 505-MKP2D021001B00KS £0.33p Caps: Take your pick I prefer high riple and temp rated. Psu caps, take your pick any of these. The 10,000uf Nichicon probably offers the best mix. But they come in and out of stock all the time. Top 5 pus cap choicesand 16 spades. You'll also need to order a suitable set of dropper resistors to put the DC voltage going to the main boards at the sweet spot, 26-26.5v DC I like 30 watt Caddocks for this, but there's much cheaper options. Thank you Simon! I'm on it!!! |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 17, 2020 20:35:12 GMT
I'm going to fill in a google sheet with the stuff used in this build...it may help someone, somewhere.
However, I smashed my laptop earlier so a replacement is winging its way to me thanks to the very responsive members of PFM....and a very reasonable offer of a solution.
Might take a few days but I'll definitely do it.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 17, 2020 21:28:40 GMT
Transformers: 2x RS Stock No.671-9084 £14.08p each Common mode chokes: 4x Mouser stock 871-B82724J8162N040 £4.17p each Qspeed rectifier diodes: 8x Mouser stock 903-LQA06T300 £0.55p each Wima caps 10n, 5mm: 12x Mouser part number 505-MKP2D021001B00KS £0.33p Caps: Take your pick I prefer high riple and temp rated. Psu caps, take your pick any of these. The 10,000uf Nichicon probably offers the best mix. But they come in and out of stock all the time. Top 5 pus cap choicesand 16 spades. You'll also need to order a suitable set of dropper resistors to put the DC voltage going to the main boards at the sweet spot, 26-26.5v DC I like 30 watt Caddocks for this, but there's much cheaper options. Do you have a link to the much cheaper options as i am struggling to find them lol. Probably looking for the wrong thing |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 17, 2020 21:46:37 GMT
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Post by sq225917 on May 18, 2020 11:32:17 GMT
Any 10 watt cermet resistor, the big ugly white coffins. Try 20 ohm as a start value, fine tune once it's all built and soaked.
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Post by sq225917 on May 18, 2020 11:33:29 GMT
Just missing the big caps
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 18, 2020 11:33:55 GMT
Any 10 watt cermet resistor, the big ugly white coffins. Try 20 ohm as a start value, fine tune once it's all built and soaked. Got a link to the Caddock ones you use? Might as well go all in lol |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 14:14:07 GMT
Hello Oli Depending on heat dissipation you could use the MP915 (15 watts with H/sink) if you have to loose more heat the then MP930 are good for 30W with suitable H/sink Those boards looks 'well diy' and can be improved with little effort, quality 4/6 oz tracing, better layout, via routing all simple, stuff. Caddocks |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 18, 2020 14:31:15 GMT
Hello Oli Depending on heat dissipation you could use the MP915 (15 watts with H/sink) if you have to loose more heat the then MP930 are good for 30W with suitable H/sink Those boards looks 'well diy' and can be improved with little effort, quality 4/6 oz tracing, better layout, via routing all simple, stuff. CaddocksYes, they do look a little DIY bit functionality is all that matters in this instance so I'm perfectly happy to proceed with them. I do have the Gerber files and could get some made, with masses of copper etc, but its certainly not an issue this time. Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate that. I'll have a look and see if they need adding into my part library |
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Post by sq225917 on May 18, 2020 14:41:38 GMT
Pillbox, Lol, yeh the Paradise only does -85db snr with 61db of gain. Have at it. I'm sure you can improve those numbers easily.
I look forward to your results.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 18, 2020 14:43:25 GMT
Pillbox, Lol, yeh the Paradise only does -85db snr with 61db of gain. Have at it. I'm sure you can improve those numbers easily. I look forward to your results. I think he means the Hackercap boards, Simon. Well, that's what I thought anyway |
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Post by sq225917 on May 18, 2020 15:05:25 GMT
I understand that, is he just talking about their use in the paradise, or in another circuit for which these specific boards weren't specified?
Theres nothing you can do to these boards that will improve the performance of the paradise. Making thicker tracks when the rails only deliver 300mA is a pointless way to increase the cost by 200%
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 15:32:33 GMT
Power is nothing without control and the size of the trace is just one aspect Simon, the paradise is design that goes back a while with a few updates along the way.
Seeing as vinyl is just for the those that still believe in its one true way and those people who have always admired the format, its an ex format its nearly ceased to be.
Those designers that really wished to make a high quality phono stage a few and far between because it just doesn't make economic sense.
However I am sure that an electronics mole a soldering and slightly less geeky version of an audiophile would have the patience to invest the considerable time and effort into producing a superlative phono amplifier which measure into the nano volt range and spewed wondrous music from a great height.
Maybe one day the time will come until then, as your much quoted person from over the pond, THD is pretty irrelevant for audio these days, its all about the FFT and the side-bands.
Any good piece of audio is the sum of its parts carefully selected and auditioned until said designer is happy with the result.
Though as its been said many times put a number of people in a listening environment and play them a reasonable system. half will say is no good, the rest bar one will feel its stonk fest maximus the finial human will be inconclusive until they have discussed the various merits and drawbacks of that sound with a group of fellow enthusiasts.
And there rests the case for the defence M'Lud
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 21, 2020 11:13:25 GMT
AANNYYYWWAAAYYY....... a few more bits have landed today. 12 caps to be precise. Just a few more bits to get and I'll be ready to throw the power supply together. Thinking Two 30va 2x25v EI transformers may be in order, especially after my experience with using one with my phonostage and it's going to be in a separate box anyway, so why not! Found a UK supplier who is happy to accommodate my one off orders at a far more reasonable cost the HiFi collective!! Jeez, they arent shy are they lol  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 21, 2020 12:49:26 GMT
Any reason not to solder these caps in place? I'm never 100% convinced with snap in caps  |
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Post by firebottle on May 21, 2020 13:11:05 GMT
You've got to solder them Oli, the 'snap in' feature is just to improve the mechanical stability.
Looking good.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 21, 2020 13:38:25 GMT
You've got to solder them Oli, the 'snap in' feature is just to improve the mechanical stability. Looking good. Awesome! I thought so but thought it's best to double check. I will be having a look as enclosures soon, any thing to look out for from a heat or proximity aspect when it comes to size? |
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Post by sq225917 on May 21, 2020 14:24:18 GMT
It doesnt matter what the psu goes in, it doesnt get hot, the droppers dissipate a few watts, sink them to case or small heatsinks.
The mainboards, that's a different story, they need venting, and the input stage transistors need not to be in circulating air. I use the full width modushop 2u slimline case because it works and allows easy assembly. If you like scraped knuckles and a pumping input stage you can put them in whatever you like...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 21, 2020 14:35:48 GMT
It doesnt matter what the psu goes in, it doesnt get hot, the droppers dissipate a few watts, sink them to case or small heatsinks. The mainboards, that's a different story, they need venting, and the input stage transistors need not to be in circulating air. I use the full width modushop 2u slimline case because it works and allows easy assembly. If you like scraped knuckles and a pumping input stage you can put them in whatever you like... Ok, cool. What do you mean by "pumping input stage" What is actually a pretty awesome discovery of late, is the fully vented tops for most of the Modushop range. I have just bought one for bigbird and his build. I reckon a smaller chassis with a vented lid would be a safe option. |
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Post by sq225917 on May 21, 2020 16:23:37 GMT
The current gain of the 327 and 337 transistors is temperature dependant, if you blow on them the output offset will shoot up and down faster than the servo can correct for, that's pumping.
So you match them at operating temp, and build them a little cardboard house to keep drafts out, cos the six watts going through the heatsinks dont half circulate some air.
If you really wanted to go to town you could build an internal baffle to control the airflow, but it's not really needed, sub 1mv offset is easily achieved with care and patience.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 21, 2020 16:37:48 GMT
The current gain of the 327 and 337 transistors is temperature dependant, if you blow on them the output offset will shoot up and down faster than the servo can correct for, that's pumping. So you match them at operating temp, and build them a little cardboard house to keep drafts out, cos the six watts going through the heatsinks dont half circulate some air. If you really wanted to go to town you could build an internal baffle to control the airflow, but it's not really needed, sub 1mv offset is easily achieved with care and patience. Is that a design fault, or something quite common? So theoretically, if my house is warmer or colder than someone elses, will that affect performance if I took it there for a bakeoff? |
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Post by sq225917 on May 21, 2020 20:07:25 GMT
No, a handful of degrees constant temperature either way will make no difference, as both halves of the input stage will be almost affected equally
Largely speaking as long as they are at constant temperature and close to what they were matched at they'll be fine.
But the hfe change with temp isnt equal between 327 and 337, so the further you get from the conditions they were matched at the greater the offset becomes and the greater the correcting servo action. The servo is slow acting, so putting them in a little cardboard house eliminates short term changes in temp caught by air flow.
Which is why putting it all in one box and obscuring the vents is a poor idea, and leads to excess output offset due to a large temp increase and a degradation of performance. The shunt it basically a 6 watt heater so +10 degrees is easy to achieve in an under vented case.
A bit like choosing to fit a randomly smaller inter cooler in a fancy turbo car. it might still be driveable, but...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 21, 2020 20:21:13 GMT
No, a handful of degrees constant temperature either way will make no difference, as both halves of the input stage will be almost affected equally Largely speaking as long as they are at constant temperature and close to what they were matched at they'll be fine. But the hfe change with temp isnt equal between 327 and 337, so the further you get from the conditions they were matched at the greater the offset becomes and the greater the correcting servo action. The servo is slow acting, so putting them in a little cardboard house eliminates short term changes in temp caught by air flow. Which is why putting it all in one box and obscuring the vents is a poor idea, and leads to excess output offset due to a large temp increase and a degradation of performance. The shunt it basically a 6 watt heater so +10 degrees is easy to achieve in an under vented case. A bit like choosing to fit a randomly smaller inter cooler in a fancy turbo car. it might still be driveable, but... Oh i see, so as long as they are all equally affected it should be ok. Coolio. |
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Post by sq225917 on May 21, 2020 20:28:15 GMT
Just match them at the temp you intend to run them at, 30 degrees is good, draught proof card house, vented case, job done.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 21, 2020 20:34:06 GMT
Just match them at the temp you intend to run them at, 30 degrees is good, draught proof card house, vented case, job done. Duly noted. |
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Post by sq225917 on May 21, 2020 23:02:32 GMT
If the input stage was wrapped up in a feedback loop you wouldnt need to match them, but youd swallow gain, get less output, have to increase the gain which would end up increasing noise and introduce imd from the feedback loop.
That's why the Paradise sounds like it does. It's the trade off between circuit purity, and the high demand for matching and stable operating conditions.
Theres no free lunch.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 26, 2020 10:55:03 GMT
Resistors obtained...thanks Alan.
Just need some capacitors, which I may already have in my box o bits and the common modes chokes and then I can source some transformers.
Torroidal transformers are not on the menu...
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Post by sq225917 on May 26, 2020 11:38:15 GMT
0.1% 25ppm for the input stage?
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