Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2020 18:13:42 GMT
Seeing as Tony of Coherent Systems was going to be in the area today, we arranged a little meet up, primarily to put a face to the voice on the end of the phone! Tony and I have been chatting for a few weeks now, about various PSU options for Raspberry Pi's, Neurochrome 686s and who knows what else. With Tony, came a preamplifier and a rather diminutive power amp. First up, we played a variety of tracks via the PecanPi to acclimatise the ears to the system. Tony was complimentary about the system in general before declaring the speakers being the weak link......"woah there!!!" I thought, and said out loud lol. We chatted about the speakers a bit and it was suggested that there was a lot of improvement available via the crossovers, with a recap etc. Also, I'd completely forgot that in my hurry to remove the brass jumpers, I'd used a spare bit of copper rather than the same quality stuff in the speaker cables. I know this can make a big difference and will attend to that tomorrow when I reassemble my system....for the second time this week lol No Tony had his ears tuned in and we'd discussed the confines of the room, we plumbed Tony's entry level preamp in. Retailing at £22,000.....yes, you read that right, twenty two thousand British Pounds...the disparity in price tag vs the DIY Neurochrome pre was enormous. Even in my tiny room, you could certainly hear quite a difference in performance. The first trackni picked for comparison was a Leo Kottke track. Immediately I noticed that the strings were quite clearly more spaced out. The ability to hear those strings in their own individual time and space was quite unlike anything I've heard here before. Spacially, the soundstage expanded the best efforts of the Neurochrome by at least 50% Seriously, the soundstage width and height felt like it was as big as the back wall, but without becoming unrealistic There was also a kind of euphoria to the sound, reminiscent of valves at their best. The little cues of recording spaces and echoes on live recordings were absolutely more audible. The Who - Live at Leeds became a lot more "live" It reminded me of the soundstage on offer when Jimbo and I went to listen to the Chord Dave. At the time, that was the best digital soundstage I'd heard.....well wait for it.....the addition of the "Liquid Music Preamp" took the PecanPi and gave me the best digital sound I have heard full stops . Both in terms of scale, soundstage. Seriously, this took a £250 DAC and revealed how good it can be. Stunning. If it can do this to one source, what would happen with the vinyl? Until the cart returns, I have no way of knowing. I only had one minor quibble. To me, it sounded a little strings and mouth. We lost a little bit of the chest cavity and the sound hole. Then the kicker......Tony can programme this preamp to deliver that too. Tony reckoned that in his system, this preamp would deliver that in abundance and that we were only getting about 20% of its capabilities in my room, which am happy to accept as true. BUT what I didnt need explaining to me was how much more was available from my system....if I had £22k to spend lol That said, it really did highlight what "could be" if there was a bottomless pit of HiFi budget available. I'll definitely now be investigating the Preamp situation and see exactly what can be done to improve things. The advice is that a better PSU would open the Neurochrome up, so I may start there. Or I may see what Tony can come up with. Thing I'm happiest about, is that mybsystem was more than capable of revealing those details and soundstage differences the £22k LMP brought to the party. Unfortunately, we ran out of time to try the amplifier, but we'll get to it. Big thanks to Tony for taking the time to visit and the nice things he said about the system.  |
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Post by firebottle on Feb 22, 2020 18:47:56 GMT
 He's too much of a clever bugger, always coming up with something better 
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Post by jimbo on Feb 22, 2020 18:52:02 GMT
Nice write up and another well known chap in the Bigman listening room!
Funny thing but many years ago I was told how important a good preamp is in a system and it looks like you have heard the results......at a price! The challenge now will be to find something that does this at a real word affordable price?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2020 19:00:08 GMT
Nice write up and another well known chap in the Bigman listening room! Funny thing but many years ago I was told how important a good preamp is in a system and it looks like you have heard the results......at a price! The challenge now will be to find something that does this at a real word affordable price? Absolutely. I have been offered 80% of the performance at a realistic price so I need to do some saving or flog my preamp to fund it.... |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 22, 2020 19:26:09 GMT
You can do all manner of things to soundstage simply by messing with stereo separation and maybe subtle noise modulation (ARC were specialists in this I remember). For twenty two grand, I'd honestly expect a milled-from-billet kind of casework, no matter how many are made. Even Naim poshed their cases up a bit when they started getting into this price arena.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2020 19:32:28 GMT
You can do all manner of things to soundstage simply by messing with stereo separation and maybe subtle noise modulation (ARC were specialists in this I remember). For twenty two grand, I'd honestly expect a milled-from-billet kind of casework, no matter how many are made. Even Naim poshed their cases up a bit when they started getting into this price arena. I dont doubt the massively low noise floor made a huge impact and ok, the casework isnt Chords level of nonsense but it wasnt bad in the flesh. It also sounded very dead when tapping it (gently) lol |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 19:37:54 GMT
Yes, but at £22k I would want a lot more than just a good pre-amp.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 22, 2020 19:44:11 GMT
'Chord's level of nonsense' is gorgeous in the flesh and I dare say it accounts for a HUGE percentage of the asking price. Twenty two grand for a line level preamp with similar buttons to a Primare or similar is a lot of money isn't it, so to justify that, the casework must be seriously something else imo. This is a mere thirteen grand, but my lord, it's a lovely thing to see and use - UK made too I believe! www.signals.uk.com/product/chord-cpa5000-reference-preamplifier/www.signals.uk.com/blog/chord-electronics-open-day/They've currently got the power amps in a dark finish and the 'cyberman handles' at the sides are masked off with either acrylic trims, or glass, I'm not sure. All glowing in blue, inside as well and immaculately presented, a wonderful amp system for wealthy audiophiles  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2020 19:48:04 GMT
Yes, but at £22k I would want a lot more than just a good pre-amp. What else would you like? Cuppa tea? Couple of choccie digestives lol |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2020 19:52:36 GMT
'Chord's level of nonsense' is gorgeous in the flesh and I dare say it accounts for a HUGE percentage of the asking price. Twenty two grand for a line level preamp with similar buttons to a Primare or similar is a lot of money isn't it, so to justify that, the casework must be seriously something else imo. This is a mere thirteen grand, but my lord, it's a lovely thing to see and use - UK made too I believe! www.signals.uk.com/product/chord-cpa5000-reference-preamplifier/www.signals.uk.com/blog/chord-electronics-open-day/They've currently got the power amps in a dark finish and the 'cyberman handles' at the sides are masked off with either acrylic trims, or glass, I'm not sure. All glowing in blue, inside as well and immaculately presented, a wonderful amp system for wealthy audiophiles It is what it is Dave, but as usual, people focus on the price because it's such a Chingy bit of kit but the truth is, I dont want 10k worth of billeted aluminium on a pream costing £20k I'd much rather it be a £19k preamp in a £300 case. To me, your comments highlight that people still buy with their eyes, rather than their ears which would tell you how good this preamp is. BTW, notice how I haven't tried to justify the price? That's because I'm talking of its audible merits rather than how much it costs. You have to remember that to us mere mortals, this kind of price tag item will never be attainable and the partnering equipment is so far out of reach that its comical. I just thought I'd share the experience of hearing it. |
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Post by jimbo on Feb 22, 2020 19:54:38 GMT
'Chord's level of nonsense' is gorgeous in the flesh and I dare say it accounts for a HUGE percentage of the asking price. Twenty two grand for a line level preamp with similar buttons to a Primare or similar is a lot of money isn't it, so to justify that, the casework must be seriously something else imo. This is a mere thirteen grand, but my lord, it's a lovely thing to see and use - UK made too I believe! www.signals.uk.com/product/chord-cpa5000-reference-preamplifier/www.signals.uk.com/blog/chord-electronics-open-day/They've currently got the power amps in a dark finish and the 'cyberman handles' at the sides are masked off with either acrylic trims, or glass, I'm not sure. All glowing in blue, inside as well and immaculately presented, a wonderful amp system for wealthy audiophiles Sorry but Chord stuff just looks meh too me even though it can sound amazing. I could live with DAVE though... he has a pretty dress.  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2020 20:05:08 GMT
'Chord's level of nonsense' is gorgeous in the flesh and I dare say it accounts for a HUGE percentage of the asking price. Twenty two grand for a line level preamp with similar buttons to a Primare or similar is a lot of money isn't it, so to justify that, the casework must be seriously something else imo. This is a mere thirteen grand, but my lord, it's a lovely thing to see and use - UK made too I believe! www.signals.uk.com/product/chord-cpa5000-reference-preamplifier/www.signals.uk.com/blog/chord-electronics-open-day/They've currently got the power amps in a dark finish and the 'cyberman handles' at the sides are masked off with either acrylic trims, or glass, I'm not sure. All glowing in blue, inside as well and immaculately presented, a wonderful amp system for wealthy audiophiles Sorry but Chord stuff just looks meh too me even though it can sound amazing. I could live with DAVE though... he has a pretty dress. Lol |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 20:15:58 GMT
Yes, but at £22k I would want a lot more than just a good pre-amp. What else would you like? Cuppa tea? Couple of choccie digestives lol For £22k, a nice listening room and a good sounding system. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 20:17:50 GMT
Of, if you know anywhere over here I can get chocolate digestives and chocolate hobnobs, I am all ears....
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2020 20:31:22 GMT
Of, if you know anywhere over here I can get chocolate digestives and chocolate hobnobs, I am all ears.... Oh man, Chocolate Hobbs are the devils work arent they ......ssooooooo good lol And yes, you could build a whole room for 22k with a decent setup in it but We arent moving in working class realms here and it's only a glimpse into a world we'll never understand. |
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Post by firebottle on Feb 22, 2020 21:19:44 GMT
I want to understand it though. How hard can it be.
Suggestions on a post card please. Otherwise I'll have to put my thinking cap on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 21:22:52 GMT
I'd much rather spend £22k on improving my home!!
S.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2020 21:44:19 GMT
I'd much rather spend £22k on improving my home!! S. As would we all, Shane. Thing is that's not what the purpose of this meet was for. A preamp like this to some people is like doing a weekly shop to them. It's hard to ignore the price tag, I'll accept that but i looked past it for 5 minutes and just listened to it as another piece of equipment |
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Post by stevew on Feb 22, 2020 21:45:24 GMT
Great write up.
£22k on a pre amp. Lordy.
What’s really nice to know is that it sounds that good.
I’m certain in that market there are products that sell for that and way more that don’t sound that good.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2020 22:05:10 GMT
Great write up. £22k on a pre amp. Lordy. What’s really nice to know is that it sounds that good. I’m certain in that market there are products that sell for that and way more that don’t sound that good. Thanks Steve, It was really good. Genuinely enjoyable. |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 22, 2020 22:44:16 GMT
I'd pull the smps and split rail your pre before spanking big money just to get stereo width in narrow room.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2020 22:53:09 GMT
I'd pull the smps and split rail your pre before spanking big money just to get stereo width in narrow room. Well, the SMPS was discussed today and Tony said pretty much the same. Anyway.......who said anything about big money 😉 |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2020 4:20:37 GMT
I am glad I have never heard it. I remain blissfully ignorant with my set up, which would probably have the same comment about my speakers, but without the chance if reworking the x-over.
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 23, 2020 7:57:41 GMT
I don't doubt that Tony's pre sounds great.
But before selling your kids' major organs to fund one, you need to see what else a £22k sized dollop could do for your system.
Or a £15k upgrade.
Or £10k, Or 5.
Maybe new or modified electronics or speakers, maybe room acoustic control, maybe a room extension/revision? Or maybe a combination.
It's mighty tempting to buy the first thing you hear that impresses in a new-to-you price band - been there, done that! - but it seems to make solid sense to me to do a bit of investigation of best use of funds first.
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Post by firebottle on Feb 23, 2020 9:42:49 GMT
Very wise advice there Jerry, however Oli would be the last person not to investigate further.
Also I think very very few of us are in a position to drop 10's of K.
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 23, 2020 10:09:34 GMT
Also I think very very few of us are in a position to drop 10's of K. Absolutely. Although I suspect that a lot of Tony's customers would drop the £22k just as part of the purchase package with Coherent Systems. For us poorer folk, caution rather than a break-neck gallop would serve us better after hearing a single impressive product in an elevated price band. Just sayin' - as I know how tempting it is to lust after and scrimp and save to buy the first thing that impresses! |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 23, 2020 10:22:23 GMT
I don't doubt that Tony's pre sounds great. But before selling your kids' major organs to fund one, you need to see what else a £22k sized dollop could do for your system. Or a £15k upgrade. Or £10k, Or 5. Maybe new or modified electronics or speakers, maybe room acoustic control, maybe a room extension/revision? Or maybe a combination. It's mighty tempting to buy the first thing you hear that impresses in a new-to-you price band - been there, done that! - but it seems to make solid sense to me to do a bit of investigation of best use of funds first. I've built this system with the same mantra I have always used... What can I do that punches way above its price tag. That wont change, especially now! Once again, I think there is far too much focus on the price!!! In my opinion, listening to pieces like this..designed from the ground up with little to no OEM parts inside can give you a massive insight into how much is hiding behind a certain component in the system. Now, I freely accept that in the realms of normality, there isnt much out there that's going to outdo the Neurochrome preamp. I'm serious about that. The Bruno Putzys is of the same ilk, but what is possible? How will you know unless you start listening to other bits of kit, and there is no point going down the food chain, so you have to go up. Any component in my system could have been the victim yesterday, especially with the level of equipment Tony has access to. I really believe that. What I've taken from yesterday's enlightening demonstration, is that there is more available from my system and whilst I cant afford to just "buy the first thing I've heard" and let's be very clear, not would I drop £20k on anything other than paying off my mortgage.......that wont stop me investigating other ways of volume control and pre amplification and trying to better the Neurochrome and realising some of the gains available. In a world of HiFi foo and overpriced madness, it was refreshing to hear something that costs mega money but sounded good. Bit of credit to the guy!! |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 23, 2020 10:25:01 GMT
Oh, Tony informs me that his pre is missing a cover on the front, which id have known if I'd asked to take the picture first lol
I'll get a publicity shot of the preamp when Tony is available
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 23, 2020 10:49:15 GMT
... and there is no point going down the food chain I don't think that's always true, actually! I think folks can get trapped on an escalating price ladder when they'd actually prefer something from the same company lower down its price range. I recall Bev on AOS saying she bought the small Maggie speakers because she preferred them to the biggies. I had a fair few Dynavector cartridges back in my vinyl days - and price/rrp was not a good guide as to how much I enjoyed them! Quite a few other examples will probably come to mind. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2020 10:51:57 GMT
... and there is no point going down the food chain I don't think that's always true, actually! I think folks can get trapped on an escalating price ladder when they'd actually prefer something from the same company lower down its price range. I recall Bev on AOS saying she bought the small Maggie speakers because she preferred them to the biggies. I had a fair few Dynavector cartridges back in my vinyl days - and price/rrp was not a good guide as to how much I enjoyed them! Quite a few other examples will probably come to mind. Very valid point. It’s a flawed (and costly) assumption that going up the range is always beneficial |
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He's too much of a clever bugger, always coming up with something better 
