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Post by savvypaul on Mar 9, 2019 19:39:08 GMT
I am using some nondescript cable with cheap connectors, doesn't seem to be holding anything back but you never know. I have chequered history with speaker cable. For a long time I used Cable Talk 3. Then decided to 'upgrade' and spent a week's wages on some Chord Odyssey 2 with super -fancy chord gold banana plugs. Could not detect any difference at all. Carried on using the Chord for several years until I got hold of some NVA LS5. That was about as different to the Chord as you could get. Chalk and cheese. The interesting thing about the LS5 is in some set-ups it gives too much bass power to the point of distortion. In others where the balance is a bit too toppy it sounds like you just added a subwoofer. So no doubt in my mind that there can be quite obvious differences with some speaker cables and some combinations of equipment. Your NVA LS5 Sounded great at the Bakeoff and again at your house. I'm looking forward to putting my cables up against them and the Original Chord Epic Twin. They were the cables that really pushed my to make some effort before my operations to get the speaker cable situation sorted. There is a bit of system dependency, ime. I borrowed chord epic from a dealer on a couple of occasions to try with different amps. On one occasion there was masses of bass compared to what had gone before, on the second occasion it sounded thin and splashy compared to what I had. The opposite of what I had expected after the first loan. Another cable that I've found can sound very different in different systems is DNM. |
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Post by macca on Mar 9, 2019 19:40:19 GMT
I am using some nondescript cable with cheap connectors, doesn't seem to be holding anything back but you never know. I have chequered history with speaker cable. For a long time I used Cable Talk 3. Then decided to 'upgrade' and spent a week's wages on some Chord Odyssey 2 with super -fancy chord gold banana plugs. Could not detect any difference at all. Carried on using the Chord for several years until I got hold of some NVA LS5. That was about as different to the Chord as you could get. Chalk and cheese. The interesting thing about the LS5 is in some set-ups it gives too much bass power to the point of distortion. In others where the balance is a bit too toppy it sounds like you just added a subwoofer. So no doubt in my mind that there can be quite obvious differences with some speaker cables and some combinations of equipment. Your NVA LS5 Sounded great at the Bakeoff and again at your house. It did but it does not work with the DCB1 and the Spotfire interconnects. Just on certain bass notes you get distortion, I think from the speakers bass drivers. It just overdrives them. I think it is incompatible with the Spotfire, for some obscure reason. I've used it with all sorts of combinations of kit and that's the only combo where it does that. That's why I bought the bog standard cables I'm using now (off of Geoff). So had a totally standard, non-fancy reference. Now there is less bass power but no distort on low notes and the sound is very balanced across the frequency spectrum. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 19:41:53 GMT
Your NVA LS5 Sounded great at the Bakeoff and again at your house. I'm looking forward to putting my cables up against them and the Original Chord Epic Twin. They were the cables that really pushed my to make some effort before my operations to get the speaker cable situation sorted. There is a bit of system dependency, ime. I borrowed chord epic from a dealer on a couple of occasions to try with different amps. On one occasion there was masses of bass compared to what had gone before, on the second occasion it sounded thin and splashy compared to what I had. The opposite of what I had expected after the first loan. Another cable that I've found can sound very different in different systems is DNM. I wouldn't say the Chord epic was......epic, but it did make an incremental improvement over the Fisual S-FLEX. It just prompted me to get a move on lol. All cables are very dependent on the system they are in IME. That's why none of us ever agree lol |
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Post by dsjr on Mar 10, 2019 8:53:56 GMT
I am using some nondescript cable with cheap connectors, doesn't seem to be holding anything back but you never know. I have chequered history with speaker cable. For a long time I used Cable Talk 3. Then decided to 'upgrade' and spent a week's wages on some Chord Odyssey 2 with super -fancy chord gold banana plugs. Could not detect any difference at all. Carried on using the Chord for several years until I got hold of some NVA LS5. That was about as different to the Chord as you could get. Chalk and cheese. The interesting thing about the LS5 is in some set-ups it gives too much bass power to the point of distortion. In others where the balance is a bit too toppy it sounds like you just added a subwoofer. So no doubt in my mind that there can be quite obvious differences with some speaker cables and some combinations of equipment. You couldn't tell the difference between Cable talk 3 (not the current one by Talk Electronics) and Odyssey? You must have had a really Sh#t stereo then as the extra shine on the Odyssey was clearly audible to us - and it was great with Spendor S series, late 90's- early noughties Castle and even that period Linn and Naim gear/speakers. The Talk 3.1 was a bit flat (4.1 was audible and repeatedly richer toned yet was the same BICC wire).
We sold drums of Odyssey over Rumour, Linn K400, Cable Talk and all sorts and it wasn't until I tried it with a Krell FPB 300 into some eleven grand Sonus Fabers that I suddenly clicked onto what this stuff was doing, after which I began to hear it with other livelier systems. The client went with the sister store KJ recommended VDH 'the Wind,' which on some well recorded organ music was clearly better in the bass (tuneful and venue acoustic reproduction was definitely superior). At livening up the two grand and under speakers we had, Odyssey was excellent though.
I finished off some Linn K200 not long ago and thought it looked great with reasonable gauge and good appearance for trendy Linn owning homes at what I thought would be twelve quid a metre or so - and then I saw the price of the stuff - they're 'avin a laugh again  -
Oh, slap wrist, I'm 'waffling' again. Must try harder |
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Post by macca on Mar 10, 2019 9:05:00 GMT
I am using some nondescript cable with cheap connectors, doesn't seem to be holding anything back but you never know. I have chequered history with speaker cable. For a long time I used Cable Talk 3. Then decided to 'upgrade' and spent a week's wages on some Chord Odyssey 2 with super -fancy chord gold banana plugs. Could not detect any difference at all. Carried on using the Chord for several years until I got hold of some NVA LS5. That was about as different to the Chord as you could get. Chalk and cheese. The interesting thing about the LS5 is in some set-ups it gives too much bass power to the point of distortion. In others where the balance is a bit too toppy it sounds like you just added a subwoofer. So no doubt in my mind that there can be quite obvious differences with some speaker cables and some combinations of equipment. You couldn't tell the difference between Cable talk 3 (not the current one by Talk Electronics) and Odyssey? You must have had a really Sh#t stereo then as the extra shine on the Odyssey was clearly audible to us -
Linn LK1/LK100 into Celestion A2. So about six grand's worth of kit in today's money, excluding source. Okay not the best thing ever but really Sh#t? Nope. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 9:07:57 GMT
I am using some nondescript cable with cheap connectors, doesn't seem to be holding anything back but you never know. I have chequered history with speaker cable. For a long time I used Cable Talk 3. Then decided to 'upgrade' and spent a week's wages on some Chord Odyssey 2 with super -fancy chord gold banana plugs. Could not detect any difference at all. Carried on using the Chord for several years until I got hold of some NVA LS5. That was about as different to the Chord as you could get. Chalk and cheese. The interesting thing about the LS5 is in some set-ups it gives too much bass power to the point of distortion. In others where the balance is a bit too toppy it sounds like you just added a subwoofer. So no doubt in my mind that there can be quite obvious differences with some speaker cables and some combinations of equipment. You couldn't tell the difference between Cable talk 3 (not the current one by Talk Electronics) and Odyssey? You must have had a really Sh#t stereo then as the extra shine on the Odyssey was clearly audible to us - and it was great with Spendor S series, late 90's- early noughties Castle and even that period Linn and Naim gear/speakers. The Talk 3.1 was a bit flat (4.1 was audible and repeatedly richer toned yet was the same BICC wire).
We sold drums of Odyssey over Rumour, Linn K400, Cable Talk and all sorts and it wasn't until I tried it with a Krell FPB 300 into some eleven grand Sonus Fabers that I suddenly clicked onto what this stuff was doing, after which I began to hear it with other livelier systems. The client went with the sister store KJ recommended VDH 'the Wind,' which on some well recorded organ music was clearly better in the bass (tuneful and venue acoustic reproduction was definitely superior). At livening up the two grand and under speakers we had, Odyssey was excellent though.
I finished off some Linn K200 not long ago and thought it looked great with reasonable gauge and good appearance for trendy Linn owning homes at what I thought would be twelve quid a metre or so - and then I saw the price of the stuff - they're 'avin a laugh again -
Oh, slap wrist, I'm 'waffling' again. Must try harder I've had the Chord Rumour 4 and Odyssey 2 here. Thought they were ok. That linn stuff is so overpriced it's not funny. That's the problem with this game. |
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Post by macca on Mar 10, 2019 9:29:25 GMT
Not that pricey in context, 2x3 metre runs would be £160? You could pay 100 times that, and people do!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 10, 2019 10:14:32 GMT
Yes but it’s just copper multi strand, it’s nommore expensive than NAC A5 though. The thing is, there’s no reason why it should be any better than other copper 4mm multi strand cable and you can get lots of cheaper ones. I’m a bit surprised at the lack of spaced conductors though.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 10, 2019 10:36:09 GMT
That’s important to me.If a cable s made from something costly, or has an expensive manufacturing process, then I’d expect it to cost proportionately more. I take issue when:
- It costs DISproportinately more
or...
There is no valid reason for employing the more costly solution
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Post by dsjr on Mar 10, 2019 10:47:04 GMT
You couldn't tell the difference between Cable talk 3 (not the current one by Talk Electronics) and Odyssey? You must have had a really Sh#t stereo then as the extra shine on the Odyssey was clearly audible to us -
Linn LK1/LK100 into Celestion A2. So about six grand's worth of kit in today's money, excluding source. Okay not the best thing ever but really Sh#t? Nope. I remember the Celestions as beefy sounding, but only on brief listens as we never sold them. the LK1/Lk100 wouldn't have the hf extension and more than a little grain I remember, so maybe the amp system as you had it wasn't good enough - but you'll think me unkind. The Linn amps we used with this stuff were Kolektor/LK85 or LK140 and 5103/Kairn and Klout... |
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Post by nonuffin on Mar 10, 2019 10:47:07 GMT
You lot really have led sheltered lives when it comes to cables. Last of the big spenders 
I'm not doing to waste any more time and effort preaching enlightenment about how to understand cables, but the clue was in Macca's post about having so much bass it was distorting from one particular speaker cable. Think about it.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 10, 2019 10:57:35 GMT
You lot really have led sheltered lives when it comes to cables. Last of the big spenders I'm not doing to waste any more time and effort preaching enlightenment about how to understand cables, but the clue was in Macca's post about having so much bass it was distorting from one particular speaker cable. Think about it.
You’re going to have to help me. I think you might be suggesting the better cable was revealing something otherwise masked? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 10, 2019 11:00:24 GMT
Linn LK1/LK100 into Celestion A2. So about six grand's worth of kit in today's money, excluding source. Okay not the best thing ever but really Sh#t? Nope. I remember the Celestions as beefy sounding, but only on brief listens as we never sold them. the LK1/Lk100 wouldn't have the hf extension and more than a little grain I remember, so maybe the amp system as you had it wasn't good enough - but you'll think me unkind. The Linn amps we used with this stuff were Kolektor/LK85 or LK140 and 5103/Kairn and Klout... Might I suggest the issue here is in trying to rationalise why you both had differing experiences with the same cables. Too many variables including different tastes, ears, rooms etc. |
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Post by macca on Mar 10, 2019 11:09:37 GMT
I remember the Celestions as beefy sounding, but only on brief listens as we never sold them. the LK1/Lk100 wouldn't have the hf extension and more than a little grain I remember, so maybe the amp system as you had it wasn't good enough - but you'll think me unkind. The Linn amps we used with this stuff were Kolektor/LK85 or LK140 and 5103/Kairn and Klout... Might I suggest the issue here is in trying to rationalise why you both had differing experiences with the same cables. Too many variables including different tastes, ears, rooms etc. Yes exactly. Dave is right when he says there was some grain and a lack of transparency in the sound of the Linn electronics. Wrong when he says it must have been 'really Sh#t.' |
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Post by macca on Mar 10, 2019 11:10:20 GMT
You lot really have led sheltered lives when it comes to cables. Last of the big spenders
I'm not doing to waste any more time and effort preaching enlightenment about how to understand cables, but the clue was in Macca's post about having so much bass it was distorting from one particular speaker cable. Think about it.
Thought about it, still none the wiser so please explain. |
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Post by dsjr on Mar 10, 2019 11:21:22 GMT
Might I suggest the issue here is in trying to rationalise why you both had differing experiences with the same cables. Too many variables including different tastes, ears, rooms etc. Yes exactly. Dave is right when he says there was some grain and a lack of transparency in the sound of the Linn electronics. Wrong when he says it must have been 'really Sh#t.' At the time, the Lk100 really was 'Sh#t' in the company of its peers and the LK1 I also had a downer on if you remember until very recently. I demonstrated systems and gear for a living and at the time, Listen Inn was a very busy store and we were well booked for dems all day, even in the week at the time in the late 90's to early noughties. Constant comparisons of cables as well as gear in two dem rooms and repeatable results each time, so I feel kind of justified in making what now seem like glib assumptions, as I experienced these things regularly enough. Sorry if I come across as a smart-arse in this, but I've demmed these differences many times in the past and owned a set of doubled-up Odyssey myself, which I used in both four-up single wired and bi-wired form. When I inherited the gear ten years ago from my old school friend, I gave him the Odyssey as a form of thanks and part payment as he was using Spendor S8's and I remember how well this cable worked with them. I also did numerous comparisons of Talk 3.1 against 4.1 and Concert (the green hosepipe) - and Naim A5 and Linn whatever..
Apologies. I'll shut me mouth and let you lot get on with it.
Before I depart, you know what one of the best universal cables was? the then cheap stuff Linn turned into the K10 - they supplied two terminated runs with the Classik music unit and I found it bloody good. These days, you can get what appears to be the same stuff for three quid a metre or probably less (clear jacket mega-strand, 4mm or so conductor area I think and a red stripe down one side as polarity checker).
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Post by macca on Mar 10, 2019 11:37:52 GMT
Yes exactly. Dave is right when he says there was some grain and a lack of transparency in the sound of the Linn electronics. Wrong when he says it must have been 'really Sh#t.' At the time, the Lk100 really was 'Sh#t' in the company of its peers
Well it was capable of driving the Celestions properly which its peers from Cambridge Audio and Rotel were not ( the Cambridge blew a fuse in fact). |
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Post by nonuffin on Mar 10, 2019 11:50:57 GMT
You lot really have led sheltered lives when it comes to cables. Last of the big spenders
I'm not doing to waste any more time and effort preaching enlightenment about how to understand cables, but the clue was in Macca's post about having so much bass it was distorting from one particular speaker cable. Think about it.
Thought about it, still none the wiser so please explain. Think about how an entirely passive length of wire can introduce "too much bass" while others do not, which are also passive lengths of wire. It tells me that the "others" are actually masking that trait, rather than being truthful.
All cables are flawed in one way or another and highly imperfect, so our job is to find cables with the least amount of imperfections, or at best find cables with the right balance of imperfections that synergises with our components and pleases us in sound quality or balance.
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Post by macca on Mar 10, 2019 11:56:35 GMT
Thought about it, still none the wiser so please explain. Think about how an entirely passive length of wire can introduce "too much bass" while others do not, which are also passive lengths of wire. It tells me that the "others" are actually masking that trait, rather than being truthful.
All cables are flawed in one way or another and highly imperfect, so our job is to find cables with the least amount of imperfections, or at best find cables with the right balance of imperfections that synergises with our components and pleases us in sound quality or balance.
It's not 'passive' though is it? What about reactance? The cable and the boxes it connects have to be seen as one entity. As someone said upthread, this is why we never agree on what cables are the best. |
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Post by pauld on Mar 10, 2019 12:11:12 GMT
I think cable is about as personal and subjective as any piece of Hifi kit. I tried tonnes of cables to try and improve on the Exposure I was using previously and whilst some was better, like the TQ cables I tried, they were just not worth the expense for the improvement that made. However, when I came across the Coherent cables it was a non-brainer. Yes they weren’t cheap, even though I bought them second-hand, but for me they were worth every penny.
I’ve never liked Chord cables much althoughive owned a few of their interconnects. To me it sounds far too bright, thin and non-musical.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 10, 2019 12:16:25 GMT
I think you are on safer ground with your purchase because you:
A: bought used so can always move on without significant loss
B. Have a pretty settled system.
Over the years I’ve found cables inconsistent when I made changes, but my latest ones seem to be confounding this, so maybe they actually are better than my previous ones.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 10, 2019 12:22:08 GMT
Yes exactly. Dave is right when he says there was some grain and a lack of transparency in the sound of the Linn electronics. Wrong when he says it must have been 'really Sh#t.' At the time, the Lk100 really was 'Sh#t' in the company of its peers and the LK1 I also had a downer on if you remember until very recently. I demonstrated systems and gear for a living and at the time, Listen Inn was a very busy store and we were well booked for dems all day, even in the week at the time in the late 90's to early noughties. Constant comparisons of cables as well as gear in two dem rooms and repeatable results each time, so I feel kind of justified in making what now seem like glib assumptions, as I experienced these things regularly enough. Sorry if I come across as a smart-arse in this, but I've demmed these differences many times in the past and owned a set of doubled-up Odyssey myself, which I used in both four-up single wired and bi-wired form. When I inherited the gear ten years ago from my old school friend, I gave him the Odyssey as a form of thanks and part payment as he was using Spendor S8's and I remember how well this cable worked with them. I also did numerous comparisons of Talk 3.1 against 4.1 and Concert (the green hosepipe) - and Naim A5 and Linn whatever..
Apologies. I'll shut me mouth and let you lot get on with it. Before I depart, you know what one of the best universal cables was? the then cheap stuff Linn turned into the K10 - they supplied two terminated runs with the Classik music unit and I found it bloody good. These days, you can get what appears to be the same stuff for three quid a metre or probably less (clear jacket mega-strand, 4mm or so conductor area I think and a red stripe down one side as polarity checker).
No need to refrain, Dave, we can all disagree and tbh if we didn’t it would be boring. FWIW I never liked the LK100 back then either. I just think there are far too many variables to know what was the reason for different outcomes, These days I reappraise things I’d previously loved or written off and find my own previous encounters unreliable at times.It makes me even less “sure” about judging stuff out of the context of time, place and my own subjectivity. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 12:29:25 GMT
Well, having made cables from before the likes of Mr B. was born, I view the whole market with... contempt. I'll move on. The last time I had a speaker set-up going I used an unusual speaker deployment (oh yes...) for its touchy/feely soundstage which required 5m pair leads. The idea of spending serious money (even if I had it, which I don't) on 10ms of speaker cable, just isn't one I would entertain. If I felt the need to spend serious money, it would go on a second amplifier, and have them under the speakers. It would, of course, create the need for longer interconnects, which I could live with. At least that's one scenario. There is more than one way to skin the speaker-cables-costing-mega-(mega)-bucks cat. You just have to think outside the box a bit, and enlist the help of a friendly engineer. In general though, I think it's just so much:  |
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Post by dsjr on Mar 10, 2019 14:06:48 GMT
At the time, the Lk100 really was 'Sh#t' in the company of its peers and the LK1 I also had a downer on if you remember until very recently. I demonstrated systems and gear for a living and at the time, Listen Inn was a very busy store and we were well booked for dems all day, even in the week at the time in the late 90's to early noughties. Constant comparisons of cables as well as gear in two dem rooms and repeatable results each time, so I feel kind of justified in making what now seem like glib assumptions, as I experienced these things regularly enough. Sorry if I come across as a smart-arse in this, but I've demmed these differences many times in the past and owned a set of doubled-up Odyssey myself, which I used in both four-up single wired and bi-wired form. When I inherited the gear ten years ago from my old school friend, I gave him the Odyssey as a form of thanks and part payment as he was using Spendor S8's and I remember how well this cable worked with them. I also did numerous comparisons of Talk 3.1 against 4.1 and Concert (the green hosepipe) - and Naim A5 and Linn whatever..
Apologies. I'll shut me mouth and let you lot get on with it. Before I depart, you know what one of the best universal cables was? the then cheap stuff Linn turned into the K10 - they supplied two terminated runs with the Classik music unit and I found it bloody good. These days, you can get what appears to be the same stuff for three quid a metre or probably less (clear jacket mega-strand, 4mm or so conductor area I think and a red stripe down one side as polarity checker).
No need to refrain, Dave, we can all disagree and tbh if we didn’t it would be boring. FWIW I never liked the LK100 back then either. I just think there are far too many variables to know what was the reason for different outcomes, These days I reappraise things I’d previously loved or written off and find my own previous encounters unreliable at times.It makes me even less “sure” about judging stuff out of the context of time, place and my own subjectivity.
I think I've 'waffled' on enough for the time being (ouch!), and since I need to try to give up something for Lent (attempt to make some sort of effort and I can't give up my one vice - chocolate, even in tiny doses  ), maybe posting on forums may be an idea. I can communicate face to face ok, preferably over a pint or three, but online means shedloads of typing and not saying what I want to say properly, leaving too much room to mis-interpret. S'all right, I'll be back if you want me or I fall off the forum-wagon |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 21:53:10 GMT
Dave, it's only hi-fi. Everyone has their own particular view/preference/bias and I wouldn't put myself through the ringer as you tend to do at times. Just found this which seems interesting. Has numerous links. Loads more links on his home page: roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htmI know Dave I'll get the thumbs up from you with this. After a few days of indecision, I went for it. Well it seemed like a bargain at £26:  |
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Post by dsjr on Mar 10, 2019 23:42:40 GMT
The songs are great - enjoy...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 19:27:44 GMT
Gone very quiet here. Anybody there!?! Had a quick scan of the Roger Russell link last night. What I thought were links to items elsewhere just linked to sections of that page. Couldn't find a link back to his home page: roger-russell.comFrom what I scanned, he seems to be saying that as long as the cross-section of speaker cable is sufficient for the length required - that's about all that really matters. Not sure I'd agree with that. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 20:04:08 GMT
Gone very quiet here. Anybody there!?! Had a quick scan of the Roger Russell link last night. What I thought were links to items elsewhere just linked to sections of that page. Couldn't find a link back to his home page: roger-russell.comFrom what I scanned, he seems to be saying that as long as the cross-section of speaker cable is sufficient for the length required - that's about all that really matters. Not sure I'd agree with that. Me neither. Not even slightly. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 20:13:25 GMT
Gone very quiet here. Anybody there!?! No. There's only me and Oliver here having a quick sweep up and tidy, the rest have gone home.  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 20:21:12 GMT
Looks that way Geoff!!! Can't believe people have something else to do other than discuss hifi Lol
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- 
), maybe posting on forums may be an idea. I can communicate face to face ok, preferably over a pint or three, but online means shedloads of typing and not saying what I want to say properly, leaving too much room to mis-interpret. S'all right, I'll be back if you want me or I fall off the forum-wagon 