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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 15:10:49 GMT
Add to that the fact that many/most audiophiles are very touchy about criticism of their systems, taking it as suggesting that they are deaf and/or daft, and you have the perfect recipe for a conflict which can never be resolved.
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 16, 2018 15:13:11 GMT
We are all doing the best with what we know...I try to hang out with people who know more than me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 15:33:29 GMT
So.....At what £ per metre point do yall consider a manufacturer to be a slurping pee taker ?
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Post by macca on Jul 16, 2018 15:36:41 GMT
Add to that the fact that many/most audiophiles are very touchy about criticism of their systems, taking it as suggesting that they are deaf and/or daft, and you have the perfect recipe for a conflict which can never be resolved. That's something I never understood. If I'd designed and built the whole system from scratch and someone came along and criticised it, said it sounded poor, I'd probably be a bit cheesed off. But all I've done is toddle over to whoever is selling it, handed over some cash and then plugged it in. But I'm supposed to be so proud of this 'achievement' that I should get offended if someone doesn't like it? Much prefer someone who has a listen and tells me what they don't like about it, even better if what they are saying matches what I think and they can suggest some solutions. I have a musician friend who is good for that, known him decades so we can say what we like to each other. If I have my doubts about something I get him round and he will say 'top's a bit fizzy' or something like that. He doesn't know hi-fi so he can't come up with fixes but it's really handy to have as a second opinion to stop me kidding myself on.
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Post by macca on Jul 16, 2018 15:59:08 GMT
So.....At what £ per metre point do yall consider a manufacturer to be a slurping pee taker ? I don't know but I wouldn't personally pay more than £50 for a half-metre interconnect with decent connectors and maybe £100 tops for a pair of 3 metre speaker cables with decent plugs. That's new price. And I don't see the point of buying any of that new since there's so many interconnects and speaker cables for sale on the used market. I've paid more than that in the past, and bought them brand new as well, but like to think I learn by my mistakes. Shelled out £300 on some Chord Odyssey 2, bi wire, with Chord gold plated banana plugs all round. No difference whatsoever to the cable it replaced, Cable Talk 3 bi-wire that came bundled with the amp. Might as well have just set fire to the money outside of the local Superfi branch, gone home and gone straight to bed. Although much later, having tried them with various other amp/speaker combinations, they sometimes sound a little different at a 'Not at all sure I could pick them out blind' level. NVA LS5, on the other hand, that does seem to have some sort of 'signature'. Always more apparent when you swap it in then when you swap back, when you think 'was it actually different?'
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 16:10:36 GMT
Interesting Macca, how much does one shell out for NVA LS5 per meter ?, that ( and please correct me if incorrect) in my reading of your comment ) may be acting as a form of tone control !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 16:25:14 GMT
We are all doing the best with what we know...I try to hang out with people who know more than me. The problem for me is that I know more than anyone else. [Vic Reeves: 'Only joking ... or am I?']
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 16:33:09 GMT
Add to that the fact that many/most audiophiles are very touchy about criticism of their systems, taking it as suggesting that they are deaf and/or daft, and you have the perfect recipe for a conflict which can never be resolved. That's something I never understood. If I'd designed and built the whole system from scratch and someone came along and criticised it, said it sounded poor, I'd probably be a bit cheesed off. But all I've done is toddle over to whoever is selling it, handed over some cash and then plugged it in. But I'm supposed to be so proud of this 'achievement' that I should get offended if someone doesn't like it? Much prefer someone who has a listen and tells me what they don't like about it, even better if what they are saying matches what I think and they can suggest some solutions. I have a musician friend who is good for that, known him decades so we can say what we like to each other. If I have my doubts about something I get him round and he will say 'top's a bit fizzy' or something like that. He doesn't know hi-fi so he can't come up with fixes but it's really handy to have as a second opinion to stop me kidding myself on. Well, yeah. I got a wake-up call some years back when someone came round to listen to some Steely Dan. We put on 'Aja', and when 'Big Black Cow' came on, he said, 'Where's the bass?', looked for the tone controls, realised there weren't any (this was a hairshirt 'purist' British amp) and so he moved the speakers around a bit to eke out some more bass. The problem wasn't so much with the amp, as with using small speakers in a big room with a high ceiling, so I got some bigger speakers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 17:03:31 GMT
It really annoys me when reading passive aggressive sales pitch that as soon as you get to hear there wares you will know the truth and realise how stupid you are for not buying there equipment years ago, not so simple an equation.
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Post by macca on Jul 16, 2018 19:55:23 GMT
Interesting Macca, how much does one shell out for NVA LS5 per meter ?, that ( and please correct me if incorrect) in my reading of your comment ) may be acting as a form of tone control ! I have been down this same rabbit hole before with very expensive American cables only to return to a simple copper Magnan Audio for a couple of hundred pound second hand. I bought it second hand several years ago now, I don't know what it costs new. I agree the whole cable thing is a rabbit hole, I no longer venture down it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 20:57:52 GMT
NVA LS6 is £80 per metre I think. That was the most I ever spent on a speaker cable. And very good it was too. (And as I upgraded from LS5 so only paid the difference.) A second hand 2m pair of Colin’s Ultra Black at £300 replaced those. The UBs seem to be going for £250 per metre these days so that would be a grand for what I have. I don’t think I could afford that. So that hypothetical decision would be based on thr size of my wallet rather than on my subjective assessment of their value. They are great speaker cables. Best i’ve had. Unless I can find an improvement for < the amount I’d get for the UBs, I won’t buy a replacement. ...So to answer the OP question: I’d spend not more than the price of a second hand 2m pair of UBs.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 16, 2018 21:48:50 GMT
Are the TQ and NVA speaker cable similar sounding? I had planned to DIY a cable based on Colin’s recommendation, but it they sound anything like NVA speaker cables, I will save myself the trouble.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 22:30:36 GMT
Are the TQ and NVA speaker cable similar sounding? I had planned to DIY a cable based on Colin’s recommendation, but it they sound anything like NVA speaker cables, I will save myself the trouble. I can’t take responsibility for that decision! :-D I’m wondering which level of Colin’s cable his DIY suggestion to you is, and which NVA cable you might be comparing it to. I don’t recall with sufficient clarity the differences I heard between LS6 and UB. I may have written something about it at the time on chews. I’ll take a look. I know lots of people (as well me) who like both NVA stuff and Wonfor stuff. So there may well be something similar about them. Neutral, dynamic and musical. The NVA range tends to sit at a lower price bracket. But personally I found that Colin’s Class A power amps and higher range speaker cables (namely the Ultra Blacks) progressed my system when i’d hit what was then the top end of the NVA range. (Tho that was before NVA LS7 and TIS cables. I haven’t heard Colin’s new EWA cables.)
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 16, 2018 22:46:12 GMT
Colin recommmended a DIY version of EWA LS25 as outlined here: theaudiostandard.net/thread/4141/inside-ls25-drawn-thomson-cleverI’ve tried all the NVA cables. Utterly hated LS1,3 and 5. Didn’t have the same revulsion on hearing LS6 but over time, it also grated to a point where it had to go. I’ve tried NVA speaker cables a few times over the years and they have been utterly unacceptable every time. I haven’t heard any of Colin’s cables bit those liking the TQ always seem to be making close comparisons to NVA cable. As I haven’t heard a single TQ cable, I have nothing to go off. The DIY version Colin recommends still wouldn’t be cheap given that I use long lengths, so I just wanted to be sure it’s not going to sound like the NvA cables. Maybe I need to grab a listen to TQ first. If I hate it, there’s no point in proceeding.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 23:00:32 GMT
Colin recommmended a DIY version of EWA LS25 as outlined here: theaudiostandard.net/thread/4141/inside-ls25-drawn-thomson-cleverI’ve tried all the NVA cables. Utterly hated LS1,3 and 5. Didn’t have the same revulsion on hearing LS6 but over time, it also grated to a point where it had to go. I’ve tried NVA speaker cables a few times over the years and they have been utterly unacceptable every time. I haven’t heard any of Colin’s cables bit those liking the TQ always seem to be making close comparisons to NVA cable. As I haven’t heard a single TQ cable, I have nothing to go off. The DIY version Colin recommends still wouldn’t be cheap given that I use long lengths, so I just wanted to be sure it’s not going to sound like the NvA cables. Maybe I need to grab a listen to TQ first. If I hate it, there’s no point in proceeding. I think your plan is a good one. Looking at EWA LS25 it looks comparable in price to UB. And I would not describe UB as “grating”. So I’d be hopeful you’d avoid that. I find them wonderfully and naturally smooth. As I do much of Colin’s stuff. But, if you can do try out some of Colin’s better cable before you commit to the build, that would obviously be informative. (You don’t live near Gloucester do you...?)
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 17, 2018 5:22:25 GMT
I’m about 2500 mikes away I think it’s incrdible of Colin to put the chance out there to build such a cable. I think I will have a go anyway when I get a chance. Spacing the conductors is my only issue, but I think I know how I will do it. I am thinking of using 40mm braided sleeping and getting someone who can use a sewing machine to stitch two lea along its length. This will effectivley leave two narrow sleeves either side with a separate Andy. Larger sleeve down the middle. To stiffen the central sleeve, I intend to stuff it using the plastic rape they use to secure pallets. It’s flexible but it is stiff enough to stop the cable flopping about and the conductors from coming closer to each other. It will have to wait for a period when I’m in the U.K. for a few weeks. If I don’t like it, I’m sure there will be plenty who do.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 17, 2018 5:29:50 GMT
I will need a 6 metre length and a 4 metre one. I costed Colon’s desingn out at £150. So it’s not a huge amount at £15 per metre, when you consider Naim A5 would be twice that!
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Post by pauld on Jul 17, 2018 12:02:53 GMT
I wish I was more DIY orientated, I would save myself a fortune probably.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 13:34:17 GMT
Not that easy to find a diffinative price for NVA TIS speaker cable, however extrapolated from a couple of old pos it would appear to cost there or there abouts an eye watering, wallet emptying £800 for a meter pair, is this correct anyone ? apologies in advance if inaccurate.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 17, 2018 14:54:02 GMT
I wish I was more DIY orientated, I would save myself a fortune probably. Someone would make you up a set of Colin’s ones. If I ever get my finger out, you can borrow mine. Would 6 metre and 4 metres do you for a trial.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 17, 2018 14:57:10 GMT
Not that easy to find a diffinative price for NVA TIS speaker cable, however extrapolated from a couple of old pos it would appear to cost there or there abouts an eye watering, wallet emptying £800 for a meter pair, is this correct anyone ? apologies in advance if inaccurate. I’m not sure but it isn’t called TSCS (the speaker cable statement).TIS is the interconnect. These high end ones are too rich for me. I don’t see the value tbh, but wouldn’t stop anyone else, I would advise buying used though so you don’t lose a packet if you decide to change later,
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 17, 2018 15:04:24 GMT
It strikes me there is a really obvious divide when it comes to cables. Some people only seem to care whether the effect the cables have in their system warrants the spending.
Others, me included, would not spend money on something that is worth only a tiny fraction in material terms of what they are being charged. Unless a cable was full of precious metals I can’t see the justification for high prices. Even then I see little sonic arguments supporting it being better than copper.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 15:40:26 GMT
I quite agree Weste, I am unsure just what material, manufacture time, justifies £800 a meter pair
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 17, 2018 16:13:04 GMT
Justify is a good word. Personally I would be asking any maker or seller why their cable is the price of gold or even higher in some cases. I get that there are trade secrets, but if there is no material reason for a cable to cost hundreds or coven thousands per metre, it’s rip off AFAIC. Anyone refusing to answer or provide justification doesn’t deserve to be paid.
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Post by pauld on Jul 17, 2018 16:15:31 GMT
I wish I was more DIY orientated, I would save myself a fortune probably. Someone would make you up a set of Colin’s ones. If I ever get my finger out, you can borrow mine. Would 6 metre and 4 metres do you for a trial. I'd certainly be interested in hearing them. I've never heard EWA cables, but have heard TQ.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 17, 2018 16:47:16 GMT
No problem at all, Paul.,might take me a while,but I’m certain I will make them now. Colin has been kind enough to give the recipe, so it seemsmonlynrightnto make them, could turn out to be a massive bargain if I like them..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 22:12:13 GMT
I’m about 2500 mikes away I think it’s incrdible of Colin to put the chance out there to build such a cable. I think I will have a go anyway when I get a chance. Spacing the conductors is my only issue, but I think I know how I will do it. I am thinking of using 40mm braided sleeping and getting someone who can use a sewing machine to stitch two lea along its length. This will effectivley leave two narrow sleeves either side with a separate Andy. Larger sleeve down the middle. To stiffen the central sleeve, I intend to stuff it using the plastic rape they use to secure pallets. It’s flexible but it is stiff enough to stop the cable flopping about and the conductors from coming closer to each other. It will have to wait for a period when I’m in the U.K. for a few weeks. If I don’t like it, I’m sure there will be plenty who do. You have a plan. :-) I agree about Colin. He is very generous in many ways. When combined with his evil plan to addict everyone to DIY audio, it makes him very dangerous. ...And 2500 miles away from Gloucester...?! I know it’s not the most salubrius place, but is that distance really necessary...?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 22:13:41 GMT
Not that easy to find a diffinative price for NVA TIS speaker cable, however extrapolated from a couple of old pos it would appear to cost there or there abouts an eye watering, wallet emptying £800 for a meter pair, is this correct anyone ? apologies in advance if inaccurate. I’m not sure but it isn’t called TSCS (the speaker cable statement).TIS is the interconnect. Quite right. Important clarification. Ta.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 22:16:03 GMT
It strikes me there is a really obvious divide when it comes to cables. Some people only seem to care whether the effect the cables have in their system warrants the spending. Others, me included, would not spend money on something that is worth only a tiny fraction in material terms of what they are being charged. Unless a cable was full of precious metals I can’t see the justification for high prices. Even then I see little sonic arguments supporting it being better than copper. I’m more the former. But i’d prefer to feel i’m getting an honest price too. The two aren’t absolute alternatives I suppose.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 22:55:00 GMT
Some companies are clearly taking the piss. Chord, for example, used to sell cables at not-unreasonable prices (and still do, at the lower end of their range). Then they introduced the Signature range, at £500 a metre pair. Then Sarum, at £1,000 a go, then Sarum TA at £2,500. Now there's Chord Music, a mere £3,800 a metre pair. I reckon they're seeing how high they can go before people say 'Enough!'
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