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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 20:02:44 GMT
Fair enough.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 21:35:25 GMT
I don't believe that the worse your system, the more influence the cable has. actually, quite the opposite. The more revealing your system the more effect the cable will have. . I was just throwing that out there as an idea. I can't say I've necessarily found that myself. But I try not to mess around with the cable side unless I have to, especially interconnects. The perceived differences are sometimes real but they are so tiny in reality that you don't really know what you are hearing. Have you ever tried identifying the interconnects blind? Even with 2 cables that you are confident with it is really hard, you really have to concentrate, unlike when you know which one is in circuit when it is 'night and day'.
No, never tried it blind with interconnects. Speaker cables though are much more noticeable like you said above. I sometimes read about people saying QED cables are bright. I bought some Revelation cable (which copper with silver plating). It was just on the basis of a review which said to give it a while to "run in". It was awful to start with - bright and trashy but after 6 weeks I think it is the finest cable I have had so far - it just went all nice, the rivers changed in to chocolate, mummy made some bluberry pie with cream and all the children danced with gumdrop smiles.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 2, 2018 23:06:24 GMT
RG316/U is the one to look at, and then you have to be cautious as to where it comes from. Once chosen, I find that doubling it up gives the best 'value' version (SSC) as the basic 'sound' is beefed up a little. I loved the quad version (SSPmk2) too, but it's a fair bit more to buy and I don't have a drum of cable here. Since I don't have a drum of the stuff, I use other cables too with my non NVA gear and don't find the better ones inferior especially. The TIS was something different though and I value it highly.
I do think that if the system is well balanced and not sonically teetering on the brink as some sound systems seem to be, then the absolute importance of wires is made less (straightened coat-hangers for speaker cables anyone?). As I said earlier, the Ab Sounds fans would think of nothing else right now than Transparent Audio cables which this distributor imports and before this in the early days it was 'Mandrake' cable and 'Absolute Wire.'
See, cables can be made an excuse for a sound system not entertaining as it should and as macca has found for himself, our brains are very easily fooled on occasion. Trust your ears? Nah, not mine unless I can guarantee some kind of repeatability these days...
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Post by nonuffin on Jul 4, 2018 9:55:21 GMT
I dare not say how much my cables cost in case you load of skinflints get a touch of the vapours LOL
To me, the cables are as important as the components themselves.
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Post by macca on Jul 4, 2018 11:30:52 GMT
Ah go on and tell us!
I'm in two minds about it really. One one hand I respect the right of people to spend their money on whatever they damn well please. And talk about it.
On the other hand I do wish that when I was getting into this hobby there were people who would say 'don't waste your money on this stuff.' or at least 'Think about it before you spend big on this stuff.'
But there were no forums then, just the magazines and they took it for granted that there was some sort of cable hierarchy and spending more equalled better sound. Dealers were no better.
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 4, 2018 11:46:48 GMT
Sometimes I have plenty of spare cash, sometimes I'm nearly broke. The question, for me, is not 'how much would you spend' but 'how well can you spend what(ever) you have got'.
If at all possible, I wouldn't buy a cable new from a dealer with margins at up to 60%. I'd buy secondhand or from a maker that sells direct.
I think a more revealing system justifies a better cable but there is still benefit for decent 'budget' gear.
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Post by pauld on Jul 4, 2018 11:55:58 GMT
My experience has certainly been the better the components of the system, the more cables and finite differences make. I guess it is a no brainer really.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 4, 2018 11:57:04 GMT
Black Rhodium gave dealers a 75% margin if the range was stocked. Guess what many Audio T's immediately filled up with - that and Chord Company for the Naimies...
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 4, 2018 12:03:12 GMT
My local dealer once lent me a box of different Chord Co. cables to try, and volunteered a 20% discount without any prompting.
I thought the cables were truly awful...but their marketing is rather well done.
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Post by pauld on Jul 4, 2018 12:25:39 GMT
I thought the cables were truly awful...but their marketing is rather well done. Yep, I fell for that marketing over the years. Once you have a chance to compare a Chord cable to anything half decent, you come to realise how shockingly bad they are. |
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Post by macca on Jul 4, 2018 12:41:57 GMT
And when you compare them to something half decent without knowing which one is in circuit you realise how shockingly similar they are to all the other cables in the world?
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Post by pauld on Jul 4, 2018 12:52:13 GMT
And when you compare them to something half decent without knowing which one is in circuit you realise how shockingly similar they are to all the other cables in the world? Not in my experience. |
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 4, 2018 13:01:28 GMT
And when you compare them to something half decent without knowing which one is in circuit you realise how shockingly similar they are to all the other cables in the world? Not in my experience. Me neither. I've come to the opinion that some cables are the 'same sh*t in a different wrapper', though. The same cable in different jacket, plugs , colours...so it may be possible to be comparing a few different makes but with only 'one cable' being present. |
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Post by nonuffin on Jul 4, 2018 13:22:08 GMT
And when you compare them to something half decent without knowing which one is in circuit you realise how shockingly similar they are to all the other cables in the world? Do I detect a huge dollop of cynic in there Martin? 
The whole subject of cables is easily understood, provided you start in the right place when analysing the subject, so here it is:
There is no such thing as the perfect cable - fact. ALL of them are imperfect in one way or another and you must start at the bottom of the pile to get a handle on what they do.
I will use mains cables as an example (which also applies to speaker cables)
At the bottom of the mains cable heirarchy is the cheap (circa £0.10p per cable) "freebie" given away which is rated at 3 amps or so. It is intended for components like computers which by and large have a low steady state current draw. The conductor quality is truly abysmal and the insulation is not much better and you can confirm this by taking one apart. Ask it to supply any more than that amount of current and it starts to get warm. Connect it to an amplifier which may demand up to 20 or 30 amps on peaks and guess what this cable is doing? My first task is to throw these away as they are simply not up to the job in my system. The classic symptom of the mains cable not being able to supply the required current is booming/overhang of the bass. It isn't your system, it isn't the speakers and it isn't the room either, but they always get the blame regardless.
So, you splosh out £20 on an upgrade mains cable and you may or may not hear an "improvement" in sound quality. It will though have less imperfections than the freebie cable.
Go up to a £100 cable and this will hopefully have less imperfections than the £20 cable.
Spend £500 on an upgrade cable and that maybe will have less imperfections again, but at least it should easily handle high energy current demands without heating up.
The complications set in where I use the words "hopefully" and "maybe" because the price you pay doesn't necessarily mean a better product, but a better class of bullshit being spouted in driving you towards buying it.
It is a bigger subject than I have time for at the moment.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 4, 2018 13:58:27 GMT
Expensive wires and cables are for one thing mainly - PROFIT from those that can afford them. Dress them up, spin a story and a fifty quid wire becomes £500 or more. In material terms fifty quid is about right for bulk nice plugs and cable off the drum I think.
You lot need to remember the roots of The Chord Company - Naim wives!!! Naim insisted on those effin' DIN sockets with some cock and bull as to why they thought they were 'better.' if you had a tape deck, where did you get a DIN to 4 x phono lead? At the time, Panda or Bandridge in their former life (possibly Lugtons in the mid 70's). Chord took the same basic four core overall-screened cable (from RS) and made it into nicer looking plugs and Viola! Chrysalis is born! I don't know what they use now, but when they started, they made a posher looking version in better packaging than the off-the-wall Bandridge version.
One potential giant killer 3.5mm - RCA cable was a Bandridge one, heavier gauge cable and moulded-on plugs with gold plated pins. Still only a fiver or so (the Chord one was £30 or more...)
Lots of good stuff online now and even Van Damme and Sommer cables are very cheap ready made.
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Post by macca on Jul 4, 2018 14:22:23 GMT
Not cynicism on my part, not at all.
What separates our opinions is our experience of unconscious bias. if you've not experienced what a huge difference this makes to what you think you hear then it is understandable that you take the position that cables make a big difference.
You see people talking about 'expectation bias' and incorrectly concluding that it means some sort of conscious bias. So if I expect to hear no difference and I do hear a difference then it must be real as it was the opposite of my expectation.
In reality it is a subconscious bias, we are not aware if it at all but it will affect what we perceive regardless.
I know it is hard to accept that a lot of what we hear is generated by our brains, and not by speaker drivers moving back and forward. That's why I'd recommend doing a rudimentary blind test (no need for lab conditions) just to become aware of this phenomena. You might still successfully be able to tell your cables apart but you will at least realise that the obvious differences you heard sighted become very tiny differences when you don't know which cable is which.
Once you've got that far you can start re-evaluating exactly what it is you are spending your money on and how much it is really worth it.
Warning: If you don't want to ruin various tangential aspects of the hobby for yourself then Don't Do This! Be happy in your imagination.
As regards mains cables the argument that they can fail to supply enough current on occasion has no foundation. The only credible reason for a change of sound to be detected with a change of mains cable is unconscious bias. If you didn't know the cable had been changed, you would not notice any difference at all. I'd never advise anyone that they spend any money whatsoever on 'upgraded' mains cables. Their fundamental concept is absurd.
Probably not what you wanted to hear but there it is.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 14:32:35 GMT
The Red-Pill treatment from, Macca!!
S.
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Post by nonuffin on Jul 4, 2018 14:34:36 GMT
Not cynicism on my part, not at all. What separates our opinions is our experience of unconscious bias. if you've not experienced what a huge difference this makes to what you think you hear then it is understandable that you take the position that cables make a big difference. You see people talking about 'expectation bias' and incorrectly concluding that it means some sort of conscious bias. So if I expect to hear no difference and I do hear a difference then it must be real as it was the opposite of my expectation. In reality it is a subconscious bias, we are not aware if it at all but it will affect what we perceive regardless. I know it is hard to accept that a lot of what we hear is generated by our brains, and not by speaker drivers moving back and forward. That's why I'd recommend doing a rudimentary blind test (no need for lab conditions) just to become aware of this phenomena. You might still successfully be able to tell your cables apart but you will at least realise that the obvious differences you heard sighted become very tiny differences when you don't know which cable is which. Once you've got that far you can start re-evaluating exactly what it is you are spending your money on and how much it is really worth it. Warning: If you don't want to ruin various tangential aspects of the hobby for yourself then Don't Do This! Be happy in your imagination. As regards mains cables the argument that they can fail to supply enough current on occasion has no foundation. The only credible reason for a change of sound to be detected with a change of mains cable is unconscious bias. If you didn't know the cable had been changed, you would not notice any difference at all. I'd never advise anyone that they spend any money whatsoever on 'upgraded' mains cables. Their fundamental concept is absurd. Probably not what you wanted to hear but there it is. I don't have any expectation bias at all and haven't had it for decades, dealing with many hundreds if not thousands of cables and that applies to the placebo accusations crap as well. I have been down the blind testing route too many times and that was only to appease the people who only THINK they know about cables, yet actually know sweet FA.
You are a cynic Martin because you are parroting other cynic's perverse opinions, whereas a true sceptic wil say "show me" and I have done that many times.
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Post by pauld on Jul 4, 2018 14:38:38 GMT
Aha but cheaper isn't always better. But I agree that a lot of Foo does exist in the hifi world. The difficult bit is navigating through all of it and finding good products.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 14:39:00 GMT
Can you only have expecatation bias if you're expecting it?
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Post by nonuffin on Jul 4, 2018 14:49:47 GMT
Aha but cheaper isn't always better. But I agree that a lot of Foo does exist in the hifi world. The difficult bit is navigating through all of it and finding good products. Spot on Paul.
It makes me smile when I read that someone has created a "giant killer" cable for £5 worth of materials. It just does not happen and they are the deluded ones if they think that.
It is nigh on impossible to rank the many thousands of cables on the market, no matter what the price tags are.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 14:51:51 GMT
been there done that with cables..i lived near an audio-t for many years..tried a lot of kit and cables...vdh cs122 is as good as it gets imho...ic cables make very little difference unless it's vdh coz they are shite
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Post by dsjr on Jul 4, 2018 15:16:22 GMT
Aha but cheaper isn't always better. But I agree that a lot of Foo does exist in the hifi world. The difficult bit is navigating through all of it and finding good products. Spot on Paul.
It makes me smile when I read that someone has created a "giant killer" cable for £5 worth of materials. It just does not happen and they are the deluded ones if they think that.
It is nigh on impossible to rank the many thousands of cables on the market, no matter what the price tags are.
But seriously, when you're a manufacturer buying drums of cables from suppliers, a fiver a metre is basically what Top End cables can be. The plugs and woven external dressing can probably cost more than the cable itself and then there's the packaging with probably costs more than the cables. I've seen some of the costings in the past and I'm not hugely incorrect in this, even today. For my sins and to my shame looking back, I worked on the road for a couple of years supplying/selling mid-line cables, so have a small idea of the costs involved.. the dealer makes the lion's share of the money here if bought retail in a store...
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 4, 2018 15:58:30 GMT
Given how many manufacturers cables are just something generic off the reel and rebadged, I’m usually skeptical towards their retail prices unless there’s something to indicate extra cost. Even then, it still comes back to whether the cable will sound as good with other stuff if you change kit. Very little has been universally good.
I have some CS122 and it’s a bit smooth for me in the system I tried it, experience tells me it will probably work a treat in other systems so it stays out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 16:05:06 GMT
yeah it is smooth sounding..that's why i love it...imho most hifi is just ear splitting cack...of all the kit over the years i find it too bright..
the amount of kit i either bought or brought home on home demo and it lasted 10 minutes max..worst contenders ever are those monitor audio speakers...utter garbage lasted minutes in me system
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 16:41:13 GMT
I have some CS122 and it’s a bit smooth for me in the system I tried it That's how I found it too. Dull in fact. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 4, 2018 16:54:27 GMT
I can see it working well with sometime like an Ion Obelisk. Or maybe a source like a Naim CDX. I had a Bedini amp that could’ve done with just a bit of smoothing. It’s a bit of am lotrery with speaker cables though, so it’s anyone’s guess. Good to have choices in your cable box though.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 4, 2018 16:56:31 GMT
yeah it is smooth sounding..that's why i love it...imho most hifi is just ear splitting cack...of all the kit over the years i find it too bright.. the amount of kit i either bought or brought home on home demo and it lasted 10 minutes max..worst contenders ever are those monitor audio speakers...utter garbage lasted minutes in me system You seem to like a smoother sound than me. Lots of people, do. I think my tastes often lean to the brighter side, or at least they did. I know I’m cabng8ng and appreciating subtleties that I’d have ignored a few years ago, You can’t beat trying something at home. I use 2nd hand purchases as a way of doing this. Cables really should be available fir home loan, unless you are talking weird lengths of speaker cable. For the price charged, there’s enough profit in it for the retailer. |
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Post by macca on Jul 4, 2018 17:41:03 GMT
Not cynicism on my part, not at all.
What separates our opinions is our experience of unconscious bias. if you've not experienced what a huge difference this makes to what you think you hear then it is understandable that you take the position that cables make a big difference.
You see people talking about 'expectation bias' and incorrectly concluding that it means some sort of conscious bias. So if I expect to hear no difference and I do hear a difference then it must be real as it was the opposite of my expectation.
In reality it is a subconscious bias, we are not aware if it at all but it will affect what we perceive regardless.
I know it is hard to accept that a lot of what we hear is generated by our brains, and not by speaker drivers moving back and forward. That's why I'd recommend doing a rudimentary blind test (no need for lab conditions) just to become aware of this phenomena. You might still successfully be able to tell your cables apart but you will at least realise that the obvious differences you heard sighted become very tiny differences when you don't know which cable is which.
Once you've got that far you can start re-evaluating exactly what it is you are spending your money on and how much it is really worth it.
Warning: If you don't want to ruin various tangential aspects of the hobby for yourself then Don't Do This! Be happy in your imagination.
As regards mains cables the argument that they can fail to supply enough current on occasion has no foundation. The only credible reason for a change of sound to be detected with a change of mains cable is unconscious bias. If you didn't know the cable had been changed, you would not notice any difference at all. I'd never advise anyone that they spend any money whatsoever on 'upgraded' mains cables. Their fundamental concept is absurd.
Probably not what you wanted to hear but there it is. I don't have any expectation bias at all and haven't had it for decades, dealing with many hundreds if not thousands of cables and that applies to the placebo accusations crap as well. I have been down the blind testing route too many times and that was only to appease the people who only THINK they know about cables, yet actually know sweet FA.
You are a cynic Martin because you are parroting other cynic's perverse opinions, whereas a true sceptic wil say "show me" and I have done that many times.
Of course you have expectation bias unless you are from an alien race. How can your psychology be fundamentally different from everyone else's?
It's an unconscious bias hence you are not aware of it and you cannot become aware of it. You can be aware that it exists, and that it affects your perceptions = all of your perceptions, and that is all.
This is well documented in Psychology, it is not a point of contention anywhere except in the world of hi-fi. There's nothing 'to know' about cables, there is no mystery or secret sauce. You've done blind tests, are you saying that you found it just as easy to pick the cable blind as you did sighted? Did you blind test some mains cables? I'm guessing not. I've never met anyone who has blind tested mains cables and still thinks that they offer any real contribution to the sound.
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Post by nonuffin on Jul 4, 2018 17:41:54 GMT
Given how many manufacturers cables are just something generic off the reel and rebadged, I’m usually skeptical towards their retail prices unless there’s something to indicate extra cost. Even then, it still comes back to whether the cable will sound as good with other stuff if you change kit. Very little has been universally good. I have some CS122 and it’s a bit smooth for me in the system I tried it, experience tells me it will probably work a treat in other systems so it stays out. This is where those imperfections really do have a use and it is labelled as "synergy". Some cables are bestowed with a bright forward sound, others can be soft and warm for example but those are manifestations of their imperfections, arrived at by accident not design.
The trick is finding the right balance of imperfections that suit your system and it is by pure luck if you come across the cable that suits. To my knowledge, no cable manufacturer publicly states whether their cables have a bright or warm sound to make the punter's choice that small bit easier.
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