Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 27, 2020 11:42:58 GMT
Been doing a lot of reading int this DAC lately. I was tipped off by Tony @coherentsystems about it. It has evicted the Sabre DAC chip, prefering the AK4499, which is supposedly free of that reported Glare/Gloss the Sabre chip inhibits on the sound. Having only had a short audition of the D50, i wouldnt say it had much if any, but the AK4499 certainly impressed the folks over at ASR. www.smsl-topping.com/Topping-D90-AK4499-DAC-p2434920.html |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 13:28:39 GMT
How is it different from the much cheaper D70?
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 27, 2020 14:07:00 GMT
How is it different from the much cheaper D70? The D70 uses the AK44972 chip. That seems to be the biggest thing. I'll check out the asr review and see what else |
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jan 27, 2020 16:33:05 GMT
Not sure the particular chip/chipset should be worried about, rather the *way it's used* is the critical thing now. ESS chips did have a rep for being toppy/incredibly detailed, depending on one's point of view, but whether the infamous IMD 'hump' caused these subjective comments or not I have no idea. One thing I've noticed over the years is that as soon as a new dac chipset comes along, manufacturers on the front line want to use it and get customer interest. Sometimes, the improved results are audible as well as measurable and in the case of the now 'old hat/so last year' ESS chips, dedicated engineers have finally worked out how to use them to best effect just as a new generation is coming along. Just means that for the likes of me, 'last year's' now outmoded rubbish (by a few db here and there) will be cheaper on the used market as dedicated box swappers go for the 'latest new thing'  |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 27, 2020 16:52:39 GMT
Not sure the particular chip/chipset should be worried about, rather the *way it's used* is the critical thing now. ESS chips did have a rep for being toppy/incredibly detailed, depending on one's point of view, but whether the infamous IMD 'hump' caused these subjective comments or not I have no idea. One thing I've noticed over the years is that as soon as a new dac chipset comes along, manufacturers on the front line want to use it and get customer interest. Sometimes, the improved results are audible as well as measurable and in the case of the now 'old hat/so last year' ESS chips, dedicated engineers have finally worked out how to use them to best effect just as a new generation is coming along. Just means that for the likes of me, 'last year's' now outmoded rubbish (by a few db here and there) will be cheaper on the used market as dedicated box swappers go for the 'latest new thing' That's a fantastic observation Dave. I totally get that. Trouble is, topping seem to discontinue the older items quite quickly, however if one should pop up on the used market, I suspect absolute bargains could be found. |
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jan 27, 2020 18:52:26 GMT
My bodged up old dac is so old it's almost steam powered. Still reproduces differences in recording and production though but it's probably way off beam (it's rather better in bodged up form than originally supplied though)...
I'd love a Benchmark dac, but the rep of this brand is such that originals fetch very good money. Have you looked at the RMI dacs? Simpler casing I believe but good performance and I think they're under a grand...
You know, a few years back, a Rega dac was regarded as good value at £500 or so.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 27, 2020 18:55:12 GMT
My bodged up old dac is so old it's almost steam powered. Still reproduces differences in recording and production though but it's probably way off beam (it's rather better in bodged up form than originally supplied though)... I'd love a Benchmark dac, but the rep of this brand is such that originals fetch very good money. Have you looked at the RMI dacs? Simpler casing I believe but good performance and I think they're under a grand... You know, a few years back, a Rega dac was regarded as good value at £500 or so. Yes, I've looked. Waiting for good used examples of everything to start coming up lol |
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jan 27, 2020 19:12:45 GMT
The Topping D30 has been around for around for three or four years now it appears. Below your level of expectation I suspect, but four years is a hugely long period of time for far eastern lower cost products and even higher priced ones back in the day... Once you start looking for particular used gear, amazing what you may find
Quite a lot in this thing for a ton -
|
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Jan 28, 2020 22:26:38 GMT
The ak4499 is a lot more demanding of its electrical environment for good performance than the ess chips, just compare the complexity of the evaluation boards to see what I mean.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 28, 2020 23:00:54 GMT
The ak4499 is a lot more demanding of its electrical environment for good performance than the ess chips, just compare the complexity of the evaluation boards to see what I mean. Have topping nailed though? That's what we want to know! |
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Jan 29, 2020 10:24:55 GMT
Curiously he states that jitter is proportional to signal level in his review of the d90 on ASR. I didnt think this was the case. Jitter is an absolute measure of periodicity variance, and unrelated to the signal level,unless you have voltage level in the digital signal so low you cant identify the crossing points. It certainly has nothing at all to do with the signal level encoded in the data.
|
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jan 29, 2020 11:08:10 GMT
Rob Watts was talking about music level dependent noise modulation with many dacs or chipsets in a Chord presentation I attended back in the summer. No idea how subjective or objective it is though...
|
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Jan 29, 2020 11:42:48 GMT
That's noise floor modulation, it's at a very low level.
|
|
|
|
Post by alit on Jan 29, 2020 12:14:50 GMT
I had the Mytek Brooklyn and now the Brooklyn+ , both of which use an ESS DAC and I don't detect any "glare" to the sound. Also have a Lumin D2 which uses Wolfson chips which are known to be on the smoother side of things, I don't hear the Mytek being wanting in any way by comparison. Both are excellent sounding bits of kit imo.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 29, 2020 12:43:17 GMT
Curiously he states that jitter is proportional to signal level in his review of the d90 on ASR. I didnt think this was the case. Jitter is an absolute measure of periodicity variance, and unrelated to the signal level,unless you have voltage level in the digital signal so low you cant identify the crossing points. It certainly has nothing at all to do with the signal level encoded in the data. So have they not nailed it? |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jan 29, 2020 14:00:56 GMT
Curiously he states that jitter is proportional to signal level in his review of the d90 on ASR. I didnt think this was the case. Jitter is an absolute measure of periodicity variance, and unrelated to the signal level,unless you have voltage level in the digital signal so low you cant identify the crossing points. It certainly has nothing at all to do with the signal level encoded in the data. I can't see where he mentions jitter at all?
He does say 'We can see why SINAD suffers a bit because once the levels get close to maximum, more distortion sets in than best of the best DACs'
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 29, 2020 15:07:59 GMT
Curiously he states that jitter is proportional to signal level in his review of the d90 on ASR. I didnt think this was the case. Jitter is an absolute measure of periodicity variance, and unrelated to the signal level,unless you have voltage level in the digital signal so low you cant identify the crossing points. It certainly has nothing at all to do with the signal level encoded in the data. I can't see where he mentions jitter at all?
He does say 'We can see why SINAD suffers a bit because once the levels get close to maximum, more distortion sets in than best of the best DACs'
Yup, I must have missed it too after rereading it. I'll try again |
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Jan 29, 2020 19:33:25 GMT
Maybe he pulled it, I questioned it.
|
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Jan 29, 2020 19:37:32 GMT
Jitter is proportional to level of the signal so if you lower the 12 kHz tone, they would go down in level proportionally.
Is the quote, still there in the spdif jitter section
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 29, 2020 20:46:23 GMT
Jitter is proportional to level of the signal so if you lower the 12 kHz tone, they would go down in level proportionally. Is the quote, still there in the spdif jitter section Ah, got ya. I am hoping to get some on depth analysis about one in a few weeks. It'll be interesting to see how well made that really are |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jan 30, 2020 12:41:39 GMT
Found it now:
There are some spikes, especially with S/PDIF so it not as perfect as the rest of the performance from measurement point of view. Audibly though, it is more than perfect with spikes way below threshold of hearing. Note that these are with full amplitude 12 kHz tone. You don't have such thing in music. Jitter is proportional to level of the signal so if you lower the 12 kHz tone, they would go down in level proportionally. So no matter which way we look at it, this is not an audible concern. But a slight visual discomfort
I don't know whether this is right or wrong. Maybe he has just not expressed himself too clearly? |
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Jan 30, 2020 13:00:25 GMT
That's why I asked, signal level would imply spdif voltage level, level of the signal to me implies the encoded volume level of the audio track. I've not heard either being true before, assuming voltage level is at or above the spdif 2v standard
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 13:36:37 GMT
From looking at my older audio gear I seem to remember 750mv being the standard for spdif transmission, next week when I have some free time will take a look for you, I have an old Meridian 500 MK II transport it also has and balanced 110 Ohm output happy to look at that as well.
If I can skew the team leader for a while the company has a really neat LeCroy Oscilloscope I know we have a full jitter measurement suite on that model so will try and make some measurements from a transmit perspective.
|
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Jan 30, 2020 20:12:03 GMT
You're right, spec says 0.5v to 0.6v
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 31, 2020 8:53:08 GMT
So, is anyone tempted?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 8:54:32 GMT
Yes, tempted, but unlikely I will pull the trigger.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 31, 2020 9:14:51 GMT
Yes, tempted, but unlikely I will pull the trigger. Fair enough. Has the SEG filled the void? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 9:43:29 GMT
If I need a dac personally would have no issue on this one at all, however my streamer has an inbuilt dac
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 10:39:46 GMT
Yes, tempted, but unlikely I will pull the trigger. Fair enough. Has the SEG filled the void? The SEG is performing well enough. |
|
|
|
Post by pauld on Jan 31, 2020 12:07:53 GMT
Fair enough. Has the SEG filled the void? The SEG is performing well enough. Well enough doesn't sound great. Are you not entirely happy with the upgrades? |
|
