Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 12, 2020 8:29:05 GMT
Hi all,
I have been toying with the idea of making some acoustic panels for the listening area. I only have 2 of 4 walls I can put them on, but I don't see any harm in trying it out.
However, I do wonder how deep they should be?
Some folk use pre printed canvases and stuff the back with rockwool, but I'm not sure that it's got enough space to make them effective at the depth.
Any suggestions here before I start seriously looking?
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Post by macca on Jan 12, 2020 9:13:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2020 9:19:10 GMT
Bass is almost impossible to damp out in a domestic environment, but if you want to control reflections around a room, wall rugs help a lot. You can experiment on where to hang rugs simply by temporarily hanging big bathroom towels on a wall or two and clapping your hands to hear reverb (or not). The results can be rather surprising, I've tried this.
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Post by macca on Jan 12, 2020 10:32:40 GMT
Bass is almost impossible to damp out in a domestic environment, but if you want to control reflections around a room, wall rugs help a lot. You can experiment on where to hang rugs simply by temporarily hanging big bathroom towels on a wall or two and clapping your hands to hear reverb (or not). The results can be rather surprising, I've tried this. I did that years ago when I had a very big, almost empty room. There were some unused curtains lying about so I pinned them up on the walls. Gave a surprising amount of attenuation. One of my housemates mocked me so I took them down as music was playing and he soon shut up.  Obviously they didn't do anything to low frequencies though. You need massive bass traps for that. Much more practical to use a bit of EQ to reduce bass peaks if they are an issue. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 12, 2020 10:37:51 GMT
Bass is almost impossible to damp out in a domestic environment, but if you want to control reflections around a room, wall rugs help a lot. You can experiment on where to hang rugs simply by temporarily hanging big bathroom towels on a wall or two and clapping your hands to hear reverb (or not). The results can be rather surprising, I've tried this. I did that years ago when I had a very big, almost empty room. There were some unused curtains lying about so I pinned them up on the walls. Gave a surprising amount of attenuation. One of my housemates mocked me so I took them down as music was playing and he soon shut up. Obviously they didn't do anything to low frequencies though. You need massive bass traps for that. Much more practical to use a bit of EQ to reduce bass peaks if they are an issue. No issues as such. We are looking at doing a few bits around the house and I suggested that we could do with a few pictures or prints on the walls as we never bothered doing it, then I thought maybe combining the accessories into HiFi friendly diffusers or panels may be a bonus, especially in the listening room I may make a few custom panels just to help the reflections in the room but it's probably wont be scientifically done, or all that effective but every little helps |
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Post by dsjr on Jan 12, 2020 11:34:59 GMT
Some of the worst domestic rooms I've been in for music reproduction can be smaller overdamped ones - I speak from daily current experience as all you hear is the bass swamping everything else - but obviously, you most definitely don't want a bathroom acoustic either, which is another current minimalist fad and just as awful. Very recent reading, probably on ASR but I can't remember, suggests that any acoustic panels are placed evenly ABOVE the listening/standing axis so as not to affect direct reflections overmuch and I remember an upstairs dem room at Acoustic Arts in Watford being such professionally treated - and sounding excellent. Clapping one's hands loudly around the room and its boundaries (maybe OUCH for you Biggie at present) can tell how reflective the listening room is. As for bass - I totally agree with comments above. At Listen Inn's main dem room, a drastic option taken was to cut a square damped 'hole' in the rear wall into the corridor behind to try to cut the bass a little - no idea if it worked as I never heard it before. Best option usually is to get the speakers and listener away from walls to minimise nastier reflections. Whatever you experiment, PLEASE don't totally 'kill' the room, as this can appear to kill reproduced music too... Have fun  |
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Post by macca on Jan 12, 2020 12:10:42 GMT
Very recent reading, probably on ASR but I can't remember, suggests that any acoustic panels are placed evenly ABOVE the listening/standing axis so as not to affect direct reflections overmuch and I remember an upstairs dem room at Acoustic Arts in Watford being such professionally treated - and sounding excellent. Clapping one's hands loudly around the room and its boundaries (maybe OUCH for you Biggie at present) can tell how reflective the listening room is. That makes sense as it is the late reflections you don't want, kill the early reflections and you'll kill the sound. I think too much is made of it myself. Okay bass problems can need fixing but passive treatment for those is ugly and expensive. Any normally furnished domestic room shouldn't need anything doing to the higher frequencies but a lot of people don't furnish rooms normally now. They have as little furniture as possible, blinds not curtains, hard floors not carpets, and absolutely no clutter, not even books or records on display. So no wonder they need to add diffusers and absorbers all over the shop. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2020 12:17:57 GMT
It is possible to over damp a room to the point where the acoustic information within the recording is removed, careful use of panels in conjunction with a suitable measuring device will able you to bring out hidden depths within your own systems.
My thoughts would be take your time and really get to grips with how each and each acoustic change you make impacts your system.
Back in while I was working in Germany, (Muchen) I was very fortunate to be living next to an ex studio engineer who recorded Queen and many others at Musicland studios in the Arabella house before it closed. A very quiet but hugely knowledgeable person from I acquired a great deal of real world information.
One of the areas he covered was how to really control bass modes in even the most complex situtaons
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Post by dsjr on Jan 12, 2020 12:22:18 GMT
Another observation is the current need for organ pipe ported speaker boxes that so often drone at bass frequencies. Not 'bass' at all but this 'drone' so easily sets rooms off. Most floor standing 'column type' speakers do this and I feel many of us just accept it as 'normal' until we hear a proper big speaker with 12" minimum as bass driver size, doing 'bass' with so much more ease and 'agility' and with little to no boom!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 12, 2020 13:32:58 GMT
All excellent points and yes, you don't want to remove all the reflections, just the late ones which smudge the soundstage a little to a lot, depending on room
Bass isnt an issue, even at volume, such is the prowess of the speakers I think.
Jimbo would confirm this as he visited yesterday.
What I would like to do is absorb some of the energy that goes into the floor but it's just completely unrealistic to anything major.
As I said, i would only be doing a little, maybe hidden behind decorative picture etc, bit all would be above the height of the listening position.
I think a little will just be enough, without overdoing it
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Post by dsjr on Jan 12, 2020 14:37:45 GMT
If it's a wooden floor and the joists are solid enough then one suggestion is to solidly screw the floor-boards to the joists. Alternatively, to replace said floorboards in the locale of the speakers with MDF, again screwing the sheets down. There's also the old way of putting long cross-head screws into the floor and standing the speaker spikes on the exposed heads as we used to do.
If the above isn't feasible, then 'do what Jimmy Hughes did' back in the day and get two paving slabs, carpet one face so it doesn't damage the flooring underneath and then decorate the top face with tiles or similar. Not all floors work with this and if there's a bass issue in the room acoustcs, the hf goes all 'etched' and the bass doesn't improve.
Of course, if the speakers are heavy enough, they just plonk down and don't move at all unless you give them a good shove which is far more than any forces generated by the bass cone.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 12, 2020 15:56:22 GMT
If it's a wooden floor and the joists are solid enough then one suggestion is to solidly screw the floor-boards to the joists. Alternatively, to replace said floorboards in the locale of the speakers with MDF, again screwing the sheets down. There's also the old way of putting long cross-head screws into the floor and standing the speaker spikes on the exposed heads as we used to do. If the above isn't feasible, then 'do what Jimmy Hughes did' back in the day and get two paving slabs, carpet one face so it doesn't damage the flooring underneath and then decorate the top face with tiles or similar. Not all floors work with this and if there's a bass issue in the room acoustcs, the hf goes all 'etched' and the bass doesn't improve. Of course, if the speakers are heavy enough, they just plonk down and don't move at all unless you give them a good shove which is far more than any forces generated by the bass cone. It would just be nice to remove that little bit of resonance from the floor boards but in all fairness, it doesn't seem to be an issue. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 17:51:29 GMT
A suggestion if I may, hire an accelorometer, place on top of speakers, use to measure the throughput of energy and next to / on top of equipment and you will quite clearly see how much ingress of vibration constant is present it will surprise you.
I have use of nice unit I can loan from my employer, some are happy to use a mobile phone app, I prefer a three axis 0.2G+ model which gives a very in depth accurate picture of the problem.
All I can attest to is this, some of the biggest gains in my system have been from removing all forms of electrical, mechanical, radiated and conducted noise and vibrational energy being one of the most pertinent items to eradicated as much as possible.
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 13, 2020 18:23:59 GMT
A suggestion if I may, hire an accelorometer, place on top of speakers, use to measure the throughput of energy and next to / on top of equipment and you will quite clearly see how much ingress of vibration constant is present it will surprise you. I have use of nice unit I can loan from my employer, some are happy to use a mobile phone app, I prefer a three axis 0.2G+ model which gives a very in depth accurate picture of the problem. All I can attest to is this, some of the biggest gains in my system have been from removing all forms of electrical, mechanical, radiated and conducted noise and vibrational energy being one of the most pertinent items to eradicated as much as possible. I will see if I can find someone with the 3 pronged thingy mabob A phone may indicate a degree of insight though and should be cheap to try |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 19:39:12 GMT
Bigman
I believe the apps are free for the I-phone.
Also place at the base of your speakers and play your best vibes to this will give you insight to how much reflected vibrational energy is put back into the cabinets.
Last year I constructed a floating platform with decoupling by vibrapods for my speakers stands, the difference was quite something, and my speakers only weight 14Kg's plus stands.
The listening space was quite small my apartment in Muchen was only 5m wide by 6m long though the ceiling was a nice height 3.4m
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