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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 6:41:54 GMT
For most of my life I've been a subjectivist. In many ways I still am. However, I'm increasingly convinced that the sound produced and what we perceive are two different things. Notice I say perceive rather than hear. I assume I'm not alone in what I'm about to say, although some may not want to admit it even to themselves, but my perceptions seem to be coloured by other factors. I first noticed it wit black Kans, which always made me want to stop listening. I would evaluate and find I somehow preferred teak Kans every time. Also the black ones just never seemed to make me want to put they system on. im getting the same with the Orton. It's mere presence is a turn-off and I hardly listen. It's a bit like the chemistry you have with the opposite sex, you either want them or you don't, to varying degrees. This is also affects expectation and levels of relaxation. Install something you like and are familiar with and you drop your guard and relax. Your ability to enjoy is surely increased in these circumstances. Bring in something you don't trust or dislike for many reasons and it's the opposite. We attach a lot of baggage and history to our experience. It's a primeval survival mechanism in that we draw on previous experience to place a new encounter in context in order to evaluate its usefulness/potential threat. NLP folk would call it our "map". My point? Well I guess I have a lot more time for objectivist views these days. It won't stop me liking what I like, or caring why I hear what I do. It also won't stop me thinking there may be other things influencing both sound and perception that we don't yet understand. Therefore objectively measuring the sound that emanates isn't always going to be the whole story. That doesn't mean we should dismiss it though, as it's always going to be a part of the equation. I'm hoping my post will open minds in both sides. Subjectivists may recognise some of what I've written in themselves and be open to the fact their ears aren't the only thing interpreting music. Objectivists may see that there's little point in valuing measurements alone when we are ultimately simply seeking to maximise the pleasure principle. thats enough thinking for me. Off back to sleep  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 20, 2019 8:19:39 GMT
That's a really interesting point you've raised, Andrew.
I know from my own purchases that if I don't like what I've bought, I just can't force myself to listen to it.
I think a lot of what you're experiencing with the Orton, is just a dislike of the sound it makes or a preference for your existing amp. There's a kind of pressure for new purchases to be a success but if you let go of that and accept its fate, you'll be happier.
Take it out and flog it mate.
I try not to think too much about what I'm listening to, preferring to concentrate on how I "feel"
If I'm engaged, I then start to process what I'm hearing. I do this for everything. If it doesn't work out, I just move it on.
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Post by firebottle on Nov 20, 2019 10:52:22 GMT
Interesting that you use the phrase 'drop your guard and relax'.
I'm sure that new (to you) kit is always going to have some associations attached, expense, marketing blurb (if you read it), peer pressure, aesthetics etc.
The objectivity of comparing specifications can steer you but ultimately if you don't like what you hear (perceive) or find it engaging then there is always going to be a feeling of dissatisfaction or regret at not finding that improvement.
@ Bigman80 1 billion posts? Do you ever sleep?
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Post by macca on Nov 20, 2019 12:37:00 GMT
not just about specs, sighted listening will bias you too which I think is what Andrew is referring to. if I was going to listen to a Naim system I'd expect not to like it, if I didn't know it was a Naim system I was hearing then maybe I would like it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 13:01:23 GMT
Pure expectation bias.
Nowt wrong with that though.
It's a learning curve.
š
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 20, 2019 13:32:52 GMT
Interesting that you use the phrase 'drop your guard and relax'. I'm sure that new (to you) kit is always going to have some associations attached, expense, marketing blurb (if you read it), peer pressure, aesthetics etc. The objectivity of comparing specifications can steer you but ultimately if you don't like what you hear (perceive) or find it engaging then there is always going to be a feeling of dissatisfaction or regret at not finding that improvement. @ Bigman80 1 billion posts? Do you ever sleep? Lol, I just wanted to see how high it would go! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 13:52:37 GMT
Simples if it sounds poop, bin it, it is fukin poop.
Trouble is it may sound great on its own, But just doesn't get on with the rest o my system.....Mmmmm then why not bin the rest of your system ?
START AGAIN MATE, I DID, AND AM HAPPIER THAN A CLOG WEARING PIG IN Sh#t.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 13:54:15 GMT
Interesting that you use the phrase 'drop your guard and relax'. I'm sure that new (to you) kit is always going to have some associations attached, expense, marketing blurb (if you read it), peer pressure, aesthetics etc. The objectivity of comparing specifications can steer you but ultimately if you don't like what you hear (perceive) or find it engaging then there is always going to be a feeling of dissatisfaction or regret at not finding that improvement. @ Bigman80 1 billion posts? Do you ever sleep? Lol, I just wanted to see how high it would go! Have you been tinkering again? I told you about that!  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 13:58:51 GMT
I honestly sympathise with tinkerers.....
Whilst us norms just get on with our systems and enjoy the Music, the poor tinkerers of this world are at a loss.
Shame.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 14:01:08 GMT
I honestly sympathise with tinkerers..... Whilst us norms just get on with our systems and enjoy the Music, the poor tinkerers of this world are at a loss. Shame. And they keep mislaying avatars. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 14:17:04 GMT
Yes indeed, so ravelled up in Hi-Fi's illusive perfection.
They ignore the virtues of a good Avatar.
Ridley Scott would turn in his grave....if he were dead ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 18:27:25 GMT
That's a really interesting point you've raised, Andrew. I know from my own purchases that if I don't like what I've bought, I just can't force myself to listen to it. I think a lot of what you're experiencing with the Orton, is just a dislike of the sound it makes or a preference for your existing amp. There's a kind of pressure for new purchases to be a success but if you let go of that and accept its fate, you'll be happier. Take it out and flog it mate. I try not to think too much about what I'm listening to, preferring to concentrate on how I "feel" If I'm engaged, I then start to process what I'm hearing. I do this for everything. If it doesn't work out, I just move it on. I can see why youād think that but itās really not how it is. I disliked the looks of the Orton from the first time I saw it. Iāve never been able to come to terms with owning one and it took me an awful long time to convince myself it was the sound that mattered and pull the trigger on one. Now I own one and I tās a bit like a parent who has a beautiful child and an ugly one, and canāt treat them equally. Itās that āone eyed monster....cyclops lookā. I just find it pig ugly and canāt seem to shake it off. Itās the Susan Boyle of amps lol. Sounds one way and looks another |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 18:43:19 GMT
Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder as the saying goes.
But I admit, it may sing like an angel, but if it don't look nice as well it grates on me.
Think MF X-Can series.....I could never own one cause they're uglier than Olive (On the Busses), but they actually sound quite nice.
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Post by dsjr on Nov 20, 2019 18:44:23 GMT
I have owned one or two bits of audio gear I desperately wanted to love as the eye-fi aspect is fine, but the sound here is absolute Sh#te and I couldn't warm to them regardless. Other things here have visually seen far better days earlier in their life, yet the 'sound' so good I seriously wouldn't know what I could replace them with for negligible funds! To hide the appearances, I long ago put all the main system gear in a stout cabinet with solid doors to hide it all away. The turntable sits on top and even if I 'pound' the top of the cabinet, nothing comes through, so it's as good or better than any isolation platform - in my book currently anyway.
My current avatar is what my power amp looks like (not mine but identical model). Would you *honestly* want that thing on show? - they used to be in hidden installations industrially. Front panels come up occasionally, but cost a fortune and it'd be better to buy the later mk2 version with more modern innards and a proper front panel integrated rather than tacked on.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 18:51:13 GMT
Doesn't bother me much how things look as long as they do what I like. The only rule is black gear only, I don't like loads of shiny stuff shining at me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 18:53:31 GMT
I try to avoid black at all costs. That said, the Orton in Silver is even uglier than the black one.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 20, 2019 21:15:35 GMT
That's a really interesting point you've raised, Andrew. I know from my own purchases that if I don't like what I've bought, I just can't force myself to listen to it. I think a lot of what you're experiencing with the Orton, is just a dislike of the sound it makes or a preference for your existing amp. There's a kind of pressure for new purchases to be a success but if you let go of that and accept its fate, you'll be happier. Take it out and flog it mate. I try not to think too much about what I'm listening to, preferring to concentrate on how I "feel" If I'm engaged, I then start to process what I'm hearing. I do this for everything. If it doesn't work out, I just move it on. I can see why youād think that but itās really not how it is. I disliked the looks of the Orton from the first time I saw it. Iāve never been able to come to terms with owning one and it took me an awful long time to convince myself it was the sound that mattered and pull the trigger on one. Now I own one and I tās a bit like a parent who has a beautiful child and an ugly one, and canāt treat them equally.Ā Itās that āone eyed monster....cyclops lookā. I just find it pig ugly and canāt seem to shake it off. Itās the Susan Boyle of amps lol. Sounds one way and looks another Hahaha, that really made me laugh. Just flog it then and get back to loving what you have. No better feeling than being happy with your gear. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 1:03:02 GMT
I can see why youād think that but itās really not how it is. I disliked the looks of the Orton from the first time I saw it. Iāve never been able to come to terms with owning one and it took me an awful long time to convince myself it was the sound that mattered and pull the trigger on one. Now I own one and I tās a bit like a parent who has a beautiful child and an ugly one, and canāt treat them equally. Itās that āone eyed monster....cyclops lookā. I just find it pig ugly and canāt seem to shake it off. Itās the Susan Boyle of amps lol. Sounds one way and looks another Hahaha, that really made me laugh. Just flog it then and get back to loving what you have. No better feeling than being happy with your gear. I still feel like I need to get past the looks and just listen to music with it installed for a while. Thereās nothing I will do with the money if I do end up selling so I will just take my time. Comparing bits of kit and listening for differences absolutely sucks as a way of picking your gear. If Iāve learned one thing in hifi, itās this. You just need to live with something for a while and Iāve not done that yet. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 21, 2019 6:36:06 GMT
Hahaha, that really made me laugh. Just flog it then and get back to loving what you have. No better feeling than being happy with your gear. I still feel like I need to get past the looks and just listen to music with it installed for a while. Thereās nothing I will do with the money if I do end up selling so I will just take my time. Comparing bits of kit and listening for differences absolutely sucks as a way of picking your gear. If Iāve learned one thing in hifi, itās this. You just need to live with something for a while and Iāve not done that yet. I have always been the polar opposite of that approach, to everything really. I bought a car once, it was a Vauxhall Astra GTE, drove it for a day. Hated it. Next day, it was gone. Started a new job for a company called Wincanton on the Monday, left on the same Monday afternoon lol Got setup on a date with a girl called Lyndsay, She was from a very nice part of Stafford, loadsa money type girl. Very attractive too, but I couldn't get past her voice. I lasted 8 minutes before I told her it wasn't going to work, apologised, paid the bill and left. I just haven't got time for it. If it aint right for me, I don't fight it. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 7:07:21 GMT
You paid the bill, ?
You Sap !
š
On the same theme , I was approached by a girl on the bus to work who told me her friend fancied me .
I looked over and she looked damn nice.
The inevitable happened and within a couple of weeks she invited me home.
I set of for Ilkley expecting a semi or a terraced house. Both of which cost an arm and a leg in Ilkley.
But no ... I crossed the river into the posh half. The house was up on the hill and it was fucking magnificent.
down a double staircase from the living room
was a 20 metre indoor swimming pool and gym with ceiling spots and a sauna .
It turned out that daddy was the owner of 'SPLASH 'Patches !
Remember them ?
All those stars and stripes victory vee patches and smile faces etc that people in the 60's and seventies stitched onto their jeans and denim jackets ?
She was well and truly ferking loaded.
Within a month I had fucked off with Julie Rhodes ( Sister of Jason Rhodes ,later Noel Gallaghers guitar tech) who lived in an overcrowded block of flats in Keighley and shared a bedroom with two sisters.
Ah love is blind ! š ( what a twat ! )
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 21, 2019 7:24:47 GMT
You paid the bill, ? You Sap ! š On the same theme , I was approached by a girl on the bus to work who told me her friend fancied me . I looked over and she looked damn nice. The inevitable happened and within a couple of weeks she invited me home. I set of for Ilkley expecting a semi or a terraced house. Both of which cost an arm and a leg in Ilkley. But no ... I crossed the river into the posh half. The house was up on the hill and it was F~cking magnificent. down a double staircase from the living room was a 20 metre indoor swimming pool and gym with ceiling spots and a sauna . It turned out that daddy was the owner of 'SPLASH 'Patches ! Remember them ? All those stars and stripes victory vee patches and smile faces etc that people in the 60's and seventies stitched onto their jeans and denim jackets ? She was well and truly ferking loaded. Within a month I had F~cked off with Julie Rhodes ( Sister of Jason Rhodes ,later Noel Gallaghers guitar tech) who lived in an overcrowded block of flats in Keighley and shared a bedroom with two sisters. Ah love is blind ! š ( what a twat ! ) Hahaha, Nothing like following your heart ay! Yes, Sap or not, it wasn't her fault that she sounded like a voice actor for Alvin and the Chipmunks. I just couldn't take it seriously when she spoke. Young, dumb and shallow but hey ho, worked out for the best. |
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Post by sq225917 on Nov 21, 2019 17:20:15 GMT
Most of my hifi is DIY and lives uncased for a long time before being boxed. So the visual cues play a much smaller part, they're all shitty rats nests.
The flip side of course is I'm massively invested in every build from a time and effort POV so its different to just being able to F#ck it off and flog it 2nd hand and try another bit of kit.
Truth is though, were all invested in the kit one way or another...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 5:41:54 GMT
I've found if I have spent lots and lots of money on kit then I find it stressfull to listen to I'm always worrying if it's worth what I paid? Is it really an upgrade? is it enough of an upgrade? When I finally upgraded to a Naim 282/Supercap/300 from a 202/HC/200 I was expecting so much that it could never live up to my expectations when I finally sold it and bought 102/HC/180 for a lot, lot less I enjoyed it more and instantly and the same is true of my present system built for less than Ā£1000 (I already had the speakers) and it gives me pleasure everyday.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 20:43:54 GMT
Maybe thereās a bit of that with the Orton. My strategy of just living with it is already working. Even though I havenāt been well enough to bother listening yet, I donāt feel like thereās an interloper in the room anymore. Itās wired up and becoming a fixture that I donāt notice.
According to Karl Pilkington, even Christ The Redeemer will be as unremarkable as a pylon to the locals because they just get used to it. Thatās kinda happening here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 22:01:19 GMT
I've found if I have spent lots and lots of money on kit then I find it stressfull to listen to I'm always worrying if it's worth what I paid? Is it really an upgrade? is it enough of an upgrade? When I finally upgraded to a Naim 282/Supercap/300 from a 202/HC/200 I was expecting so much that it could never live up to my expectations when I finally sold it and bought 102/HC/180 for a lot, lot less I enjoyed it more and instantly and the same is true of my present system built for less than Ā£1000 (I already had the speakers) and it gives me pleasure everyday. Diminishing returns is real! S. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2019 20:49:34 GMT
Me, I just listen to music. Maybe I'm weird.
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Post by nonuffin on Nov 24, 2019 13:49:15 GMT
You have to be to become a member of this forum. Welcome weirdo  |
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