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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 13:15:19 GMT
286 would be amply sufficient. The '57's are supposedly about 83/84dB and I can get plenty of volume. You make a valid point, but the price difference does not look massive between the 286 boards and the 686. I need to fully cost a Mod 686 build, and look more to see if it is within my comfort zone, as messing it up would be an expensive mistake. I also have no test equipment to make sure everything is ok, other than a multimeter.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 23:18:33 GMT
What if I were to transplant the 286 boards into my current amps? Obviously I need to check the transformer capacity etc. But it will be a cheaper way of upgrading. Failing that, I reckon I am looking at about £1k for a 286?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 27, 2020 23:30:05 GMT
What if I were to transplant the 286 boards into my current amps? Obviously I need to check the transformer capacity etc. But it will be a cheaper way of upgrading. Failing that, I reckon I am looking at about £1k for a 286? You can do that and you may be able to use the same PSU. Kevin, i don't say this often but ...... Don't do it. I get the thought process but it's a half measure improvement. Build a 686. You will only wish you had, if you don't. The 686 is the best amplifier i have heard with my own ears. Beat the b'jesus out of the Much lauded (rightly so btw) Krell KSA100 MK1 I prefer it to the 286, which sounded great btw, just not AS great to my ears in my system. A toroidal based PSU will elevate it again and then for me the 686 would nee over £20k to beat it, maybe even match it. Am i talking Sh#t? I dont think so. If you are going for quad 57's you can gi fir the 286. Alans combo sounds fabulous but if you are going for floorstanders, i wouldn't do anything but put a DM686 on them. Bung some Graphene speaker cables or Spotfire Speaker cables in and have your mind warped every day. Just my 2p.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 9:19:45 GMT
It occurred to me today that I have never tried the Firebottle Monos with my Cyrus CLS70 speakers, so this morning I have put them in my system. They really do sound good. I think the FB Monos have enough grunt to run the speakers I am thinking of buying, and as mentioned elsewhere, I am thinking of building a Modulus 686. The smartest idea may be to sell the Modulus 86 to partially fund the PCBs I need. There is already someone I te rested in them.
Later today, I am going to fit my Arcam Alpha 10P into the system, and see if I am happy to live with it. That way, the sale of the FB Monos can also fund the bits I need.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 29, 2020 9:26:15 GMT
It occurred to me today that I have never tried the Firebottle Monos with my Cyrus CLS70 speakers, so this morning I have put them in my system. They really do sound good. I think the FB Monos have enough grunt to run the speakers I am thinking of buying, and as mentioned elsewhere, I am thinking of building a Modulus 686. The smartest idea may be to sell the Modulus 86 to partially fund the PCBs I need. There is already someone I te rested in them. Later today, I am going to fit my Arcam Alpha 10P into the system, and see if I am happy to live with it. That way, the sale of the FB Monos can also fund the bits I need. Sounds like a plan...
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Post by macca on Mar 29, 2020 9:33:16 GMT
I'm going to chuck my tuppence hapenny in, take it or leave it:
there's driving a speaker and there's driving a speaker. Speakers I use are not dissimilar to those Triangles. They are sensitive/efficient but also dip quite low in impedance with a steep curve. I have run them off one of those little chip amps and I have run them off Krells, and a couple of power amps in between, Philips Black Tulip and XTZ.
All the amps drive the speakers to adequate volume even in quite a large room with no obvious problems. Nevertheless there is quite a noticeable difference in bass response between the different amps. You would not notice anything amiss with the chip amp in, but then put the Philips in and you realise there's more control and body. Then put the Krell in and you realise what was missing with the Philips.
Possibly you could put in an amp with even more welly than the Krells and notice another change. It's a sliding scale. Rule is, the amp can never be too good at driving the speakers, but pretty much any amp will drive the speakers okay, just a question of degrees.
I'm personally not at all keen on single driver speakers. They have advantages, but way too many compromises. I think the Triangles would be a big step up from them with any amplifier. I'd get the Triangles and worry about the amplification later.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 29, 2020 9:41:56 GMT
I'm going to chuck my tuppence hapenny in, take it or leave it: there's driving a speaker and there's driving a speaker. Speakers I use are not dissimilar to those Triangles. They are sensitive/efficient but also dip quite low in impedance with a steep curve. I have run them off one of those little chip amps and I have run them off Krells, and a couple of power amps in between, Philips Black Tulip and XTZ. All the amps drive the speakers to adequate volume even in quite a large room with no obvious problems. Nevertheless there is quite a noticeable difference in bass response between the different amps. You would not notice anything amiss with the chip amp in, but then put the Philips in and you realise there's more control and body. Then put the Krell in and you realise what was missing with the Philips. Possibly you could put in an amp with even more welly than the Krells and notice another change. It's a sliding scale. Rule is, the amp can never be too good at driving the speakers, but pretty much any amp will drive the speakers okay, just a question of degrees. I'm personally not at all keen on single driver speakers. They have advantages, but way too many compromises. I think the Triangles would be a big step up from them with any amplifier. I'd get the Triangles and worry about the amplification later. Youve got to get a listen to a 686 Macca. It'll end your association with Krell.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 9:55:14 GMT
I'd get the Triangles and worry about the amplification later. That is the plan. The Triangles are likely to get bought next week, if they are still available. I will try them on my Mod 86, FB ones and an Alpha 10P. I think I could live with the 10P, as it is not too shabby, while I build the 686. The other plan is to put the Cyrus CLS70 and dedicated stands up for sale locally, and probably the Frugel 3. They may take a while to sell, but they will go eventually.
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Post by macca on Mar 29, 2020 10:05:43 GMT
I'm going to chuck my tuppence hapenny in, take it or leave it: there's driving a speaker and there's driving a speaker. Speakers I use are not dissimilar to those Triangles. They are sensitive/efficient but also dip quite low in impedance with a steep curve. I have run them off one of those little chip amps and I have run them off Krells, and a couple of power amps in between, Philips Black Tulip and XTZ. All the amps drive the speakers to adequate volume even in quite a large room with no obvious problems. Nevertheless there is quite a noticeable difference in bass response between the different amps. You would not notice anything amiss with the chip amp in, but then put the Philips in and you realise there's more control and body. Then put the Krell in and you realise what was missing with the Philips. Possibly you could put in an amp with even more welly than the Krells and notice another change. It's a sliding scale. Rule is, the amp can never be too good at driving the speakers, but pretty much any amp will drive the speakers okay, just a question of degrees. I'm personally not at all keen on single driver speakers. They have advantages, but way too many compromises. I think the Triangles would be a big step up from them with any amplifier. I'd get the Triangles and worry about the amplification later. Youve got to get a listen to a 686 Macca. It'll end your association with Krell. I would love a go on the 686 but I really need to get the 50S sorted. I had perfection with that amplifier. Exactly the sound I wanted.
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Post by macca on Mar 29, 2020 10:07:08 GMT
I'd get the Triangles and worry about the amplification later. That is the plan. The Triangles are likely to get bought next week, if they are still available. I will try them on my Mod 86, FB ones and an Alpha 10P. I think I could live with the 10P, as it is not too shabby, while I build the 686. The other plan is to put the Cyrus CLS70 and dedicated stands up for sale locally, and probably the Frugel 3. They may take a while to sell, but they will go eventually. Go for it. I reckon that 10P will be a good match for them anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 10:27:16 GMT
I reckon it will work, but it won’t be as good as the Mod 86 family.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 29, 2020 10:45:39 GMT
Youve got to get a listen to a 686 Macca. It'll end your association with Krell. I would love a go on the 686 but I really need to get the 50S sorted. I had perfection with that amplifier. Exactly the sound I wanted. Best you maybe don't listen to one then lol
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 11:16:26 GMT
A nice break from HiFi fiddling. Took time out to BBQ an Entrecôte. Served with crinkle cut chips. Absolutely superb.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 14:08:33 GMT
Darn. I just contacted the dealer. He is happy to give me a 2 week sale or return home demo on the speakers. That will answer all my questions about the amps.
I have also contacted someone who is interested in the -86 amps, and they are still interested. This could all start falling into place.
The Mrs is going to kill me!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 29, 2020 14:17:19 GMT
Darn. I just contacted the dealer. He is happy to give me a 2 week sale or return home demo on the speakers. That will answer all my questions about the amps. I have also contacted someone who is interested in the -86 amps, and they are still interested. This could all start falling into place. The Mrs is going to kill me! When you are making the right moves, everything happens easily.
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Post by antonio on Mar 29, 2020 17:02:10 GMT
"When you are making the right moves, everything happens easily." I always find that as well Oli.
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Post by antonio on Mar 29, 2020 17:36:01 GMT
Pleased your dealer is willing to give the 2 weeks home dem of the speakers. Only heard Triangle speakers twice, found they very forward, but they do give detail in spades. You also mentioned JM Labs may also be the same, this arose more so after the Beryllium tweeter came into use. Usually in a well sorted system you will not have any problems.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2020 16:56:50 GMT
Stage 1 has been launched. Operation Antal EZ commences.
Happy Birthday to me...... (It is not my birthday yet, but it was an offer to good to turn down).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 10:07:55 GMT
My other thoughts are that I could transplant a set of Mod286 boards into my current chassis.
Each monoblock consist of 160 VA (230V)transformer, (made to the builders own specifications) each power supply board consist of 4x10000 uF 50V Nichicon capacitors and dual rectifier fast recovery diodes. This is probably overkill on the 86 and looks man enough to handle a 286.
That would cost me considerably less to do as well, but may not be quite as good as a 686.
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Post by firebottle on Mar 31, 2020 11:49:14 GMT
That sounds like a plan Kevin. Just been having a discussion with Oli about the merits of 686 or 286. For myself the 286 is overkill when driving the ESL57's, the load impedance is quite high and the 286 output exceeds the rating of the 57's anyway. As I am not going to change from the 57's the 286 is my end game amplifier.
For 'conventional' speakers with voice coils and multiple units the advantage of the 686 is when the load is in any way 'difficult', be it the phase response at crossover frequencies or dips in the impedance. If the speakers you have settled on are an easy load then 286 could well be your end game too.
Just looked at the spec of the Antal. 92dB sensitivity and min impedance of 3 ohms. I don't think you would have any problems with 286.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 12:11:43 GMT
It is something to think about. I am going to wait for the delivery, and see what happens with the Mod 86, the FB Monos and an Arcam Alpha 10P and make a decision from there. If the 10P is good enough short term, when the COVID-19 is over, sale of unused HiFi bits may well pay for the build of the 686.
I am in no rush at the moment.
I have heard that the Antals like a lot of current. I thought one of the things that the Mod 86 amps are good at are current delivery, so it may well be good enough.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 12:20:05 GMT
Speakers have left the depot. They are coming from the other side of Toulouse so should be here relatively soon (next couple of days).
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 31, 2020 12:23:58 GMT
That sounds like a plan Kevin. Just been having a discussion with Oli about the merits of 686 or 286. For myself the 286 is overkill when driving the ESL57's, the load impedance is quite high and the 286 output exceeds the rating of the 57's anyway. As I am not going to change from the 57's the 286 is my end game amplifier. For 'conventional' speakers with voice coils and multiple units the advantage of the 686 is when the load is in any way 'difficult', be it the phase response at crossover frequencies or dips in the impedance. If the speakers you have settled on are an easy load then 286 could well be your end game too. Just looked at the spec of the Antal. 92dB sensitivity and min impedance of 3 ohms. I don't think you would have any problems with 286. Stop it, Alan..... The man NEEDS a 686 🤣 It's not a question that needs answering lol
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 16:30:54 GMT
And if I fitted another Modulus 86 board in the cases, and bridged them, what sort of power output could I expect?
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Post by firebottle on Mar 31, 2020 17:47:16 GMT
If you make a bridged amplifier you get twice the output voltage swing, hence also twice the output current into a known load, this would give 4x the power.
However not all amplifiers are rated to give twice the current delivery so generally if an amplifier is rated to drive 4 ohm loads then in bridged mode the load would be restricted to 8 ohms or above. In this configuration into 8 ohms the power would be doubled that specified for 4 ohm load.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 17:48:31 GMT
Thanks Alan. Not much use for speakers that drop to 3ohm then.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2020 21:40:02 GMT
Speakers are due tomorrow, apparently.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 1, 2020 22:20:54 GMT
Speakers are due tomorrow, apparently. The suspense is killing me lol Seriously, i am looking forward to the pics etc
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 6:43:04 GMT
Well, I have had no contact from the transporter. I sent an e-mail to the guys at HiFi.FR and they responded at 23:27. Can’t fault the customer service. They have some interesting stuff in their range of kit. I think I bought the cheapest speakers they stock.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 10:13:16 GMT
These things are heavy. 32kg each box, and three baby gates to pass.
Anyway that is done, safely. I think I almost put my back out getting them up.the stairs though.
They are unboxed, and in place on the end of the FB Monos. Three tracks into "Grafitti on the train" is too early to comment on them properly, but I am not disappointed with initial impressions at low volume. They will need 150 to loosen up, apparently.
I will post some pictures when I work out how to reduce the image size on my phone.
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