Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 12, 2019 11:38:47 GMT
Anyone who has dabbled with valves long enough will likely have come across this term and many will also have experienced it first hand.
I’m currently experiencing it in an unexpected way. I’m using my Audio Innovations L1 between my CD player and a Schiit Magni Uber with its volume whacked up. It’s done more to make headphones enjoyable than anything else I’ve tried. The sense of air and space is truly lovely.
Being a big fan of soundstaging, I’ve loved this “air and space” aspect of some valve amps I’ve owned, Audion did it best. I just wonder why valves seem so much more able in this area than most solid state amps.
I can certainly rule out expectation bias as my only intention when trying this setup was to make sure the preamp I’d bought was working, without risking my speakers. Are valves just “better” in presenting spatial detail, or is it some accidental effect that the brain “likes”?
Curious to hear all perspectives on this, including objective/technical ones.....even if that says it’s my imagination.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 11:43:07 GMT
Anyone who has dabbled with valves long enough will likely have come across this term and many will also have experienced it first hand. I’m currently experiencing it in an unexpected way. I’m using my Audio Innovations L1 between my CD player and a Schiit Magni Uber with its volume whacked up. It’s done more to make headphones enjoyable than anything else I’ve tried. The sense of air and space is truly lovely. Being a big fan of soundstaging, I’ve loved this “air and space” aspect of some valve amps I’ve owned, Audion did it best. I just wonder why valves seem so much more able in this Rae than most solid state amps. I can certainly rule out expectation bias as my only intention when trying this setup was to make sure the preamp I’d bought was working, without risking my speakers. Are valves just “better” in presenting spatial detail, or is it some accidental effect that the brain “likes”? Curious to hear all perspectives on this, including objective/technical ones.....even if that says it’s my imagination. What you are experiencing is the euphoric influence valves have.
The "air and space" is literally all about harmonics in the sound and yes, sounds great doesn't it lol.
Unfortunately it's all lies lol
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Post by macca on Nov 12, 2019 12:24:59 GMT
I don't know if it is anything specific to valve technology. Not all valve amps have that euphonic sound. Some sound truly awful, so bad you can't believe people have paid thousands for them, ket alone can't hear how poor they are.
Some, like Radfords, just sound like good amplifiers should sound. I don't think anyone would guess Radfords were valve amps if they couldn't see them.
My guess would be that it is all to do with the circuit topology and the distortion spectrum, and that you could get a solid state amp to do the same trick if you wanted to.
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Post by dsjr on Nov 12, 2019 12:59:18 GMT
I'm going to suggest it's ringing/microphony plus added compression and distortions in a subjectively pleasant mix. Macca and I know of at least one solid state brand that does the 'lots of air and space' too, but with significantly better bass as you don't have out transformer basss saturation distortion. Cheap solid state with nasties done to minimise distortion (rather than chosing better components which match better?) do seem to dry the sound out TOO much though and for the inexperienced, I'd say it's damned difficult to know where the correct balance really is!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 15:04:20 GMT
I don't know if it is anything specific to valve technology. Not all valve amps have that euphonic sound. Some sound truly awful, so bad you can't believe people have paid thousands for them, ket alone can't hear how poor they are. Some, like Radfords, just sound like good amplifiers should sound. I don't think anyone would guess Radfords were valve amps if they couldn't see them. My guess would be that it is all to do with the circuit topology and the distortion spectrum, and that you could get a solid state amp to do the same trick if you wanted to. They do. Radfords may sound good, but they aren't as transparent as your Krell KSA50 or my 686. Even valve OTLs, of which I can loan 2 to test, cannot match the 686, KrellKSA50s or the BOSC for transparency. They may have it in less of an amount or less noticeable, but they all have it. It's harmonics and a bit of distortion. Valves are notorious for it, but that's why they sound so good. Good valve amps don't highlight it as much as poor ones but it's measurable and Audible. There is no Valve amp that is capable of reaching the distortion figures attainable by Solid state or Digital amplification. It's not the be all and end all and like I say, I love valve amps but they are 100% lying to you. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 15:06:50 GMT
I'm going to suggest it's ringing/microphony plus added compression and distortions in a subjectively pleasant mix. Macca and I know of at least one solid state brand that does the 'lots of air and space' too, but with significantly better bass as you don't have out transformer basss saturation distortion. Cheap solid state with nasties done to minimise distortion (rather than chosing better components which match better?) do seem to dry the sound out TOO much though and for the inexperienced, I'd say it's damned difficult to know where the correct balance really is! If your talking NVA, then yes, they do the whole airy thing too but again, it's never going to measure as well at the KSA50s, 686 or BOSC because that's not the sou d the designer wanted. There no wrong way to enjoy music, as long as you aren't hurting anyone, then buy the gear you love to listen to your music with. I love valves, just not as much as the 686. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 12, 2019 15:11:38 GMT
I would never have said NVA do “air and space” anywhere near as well as the most proficient valve amps. I kinda found them a good compromise that sat half way between solid state muscle and valve openness, but they couldn’t compete with the best of either on their strengths. If you want a balance though, they were well positioned.
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Post by dsjr on Nov 12, 2019 15:44:35 GMT
I just remember my vinyl vs master tape comparisons of yesteryear. Many vinyl players including the cartridge, seemed to add a kind of 'halo' to the sound. Listen to a hard left or right sound on the 'non-playing' channel. When I used to mess with these things, I heard a kind of reverberent 'echo' of what was playing on the other channel on the vinyl, where the master or CD had next to nothing in the 'non speaking' channel. I can't remember any specifics, so it's just a memory here...
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Post by macca on Nov 12, 2019 15:52:49 GMT
I don't know if it is anything specific to valve technology. Not all valve amps have that euphonic sound. Some sound truly awful, so bad you can't believe people have paid thousands for them, ket alone can't hear how poor they are. Some, like Radfords, just sound like good amplifiers should sound. I don't think anyone would guess Radfords were valve amps if they couldn't see them. My guess would be that it is all to do with the circuit topology and the distortion spectrum, and that you could get a solid state amp to do the same trick if you wanted to. They do. Radfords may sound good, but they aren't as transparent as your Krell KSA50 or my 686. True, although there's not much in it and more importantly they sound 'right' on the ear, which a lot/most amplifiers don't. For me it doesn't matter how transparent they are if they don't sound 'right'. |
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Post by macca on Nov 12, 2019 15:53:21 GMT
I would never have said NVA do “air and space” anywhere near as well as the most proficient valve amps. I kinda found them a good compromise that sat half way between solid state muscle and valve openness, but they couldn’t compete with the best of either on their strengths. If you want a balance though, they were well positioned. Agree. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 15:54:16 GMT
They do. Radfords may sound good, but they aren't as transparent as your Krell KSA50 or my 686. True, although there's not much in it and more importantly they sound 'right' on the ear, which a lot/most amplifiers don't. For me it doesn't matter how transparent they are if they don't sound 'right'. Who's compared them? |
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Post by macca on Nov 12, 2019 16:01:40 GMT
I just remember my vinyl vs master tape comparisons of yesteryear. Many vinyl players including the cartridge, seemed to add a kind of 'halo' to the sound. Listen to a hard left or right sound on the 'non-playing' channel. When I used to mess with these things, I heard a kind of reverberent 'echo' of what was playing on the other channel on the vinyl, where the master or CD had next to nothing in the 'non speaking' channel. I can't remember any specifics, so it's just a memory here... Back then you were comparing analogue recordings on tape to vinyl though.
Imagine now comparing a digital recording master to the vinyl copy - Pointless exercise, the vinyl won't get remotely close to it.
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Post by macca on Nov 12, 2019 16:02:34 GMT
True, although there's not much in it and more importantly they sound 'right' on the ear, which a lot/most amplifiers don't. For me it doesn't matter how transparent they are if they don't sound 'right'. Who's compared them? Not back to back obvs. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 16:53:04 GMT
I just remember my vinyl vs master tape comparisons of yesteryear. Many vinyl players including the cartridge, seemed to add a kind of 'halo' to the sound. Listen to a hard left or right sound on the 'non-playing' channel. When I used to mess with these things, I heard a kind of reverberent 'echo' of what was playing on the other channel on the vinyl, where the master or CD had next to nothing in the 'non speaking' channel. I can't remember any specifics, so it's just a memory here... Back then you were comparing analogue recordings on tape to vinyl though.
Imagine now comparing a digital recording master to the vinyl copy - Pointless exercise, the vinyl won't get remotely close to it.
Very little difference in many ways between a tape or digital master recording but loads between either of them and vinyl. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 17:06:23 GMT
I answered “Dunno” because I don’t really care.
If it sounds good to my ears, and I enjoy it more, then I don’t care if an amp is lying to me.
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Post by dsjr on Nov 12, 2019 17:13:34 GMT
Topical for me as I'm wallowing in my infancy record playing -
I think many 60's singles especially, were mastered to sound impressive on a ceramic cartridge played on something like this, or Garrard/BSR equivalent in the UK. Listen to an unmolested master of this and the results aren't always very nice (I have a Dave Dee etc. compilation and the sound of each track varies from tolerable to almost unlistenable (whatever tape was used for the 'Hold Tight' transfer). Off topic again...
One 'supposed' advantage to modern components (famous last words Jez?) is that they're (decent brands are) hopefully better matched as manufactured, so circuit design nasties to pull them into line may not be needed today to get better performance. Huge can-o-worms I suspect...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 17:39:57 GMT
I have no preference. Valves or transistors can be equally satisfactory to my ears and I have liked both. I've also heard poor examples of each. Seems to me, a good amplifier should not have a signature sound.
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Post by macca on Nov 12, 2019 18:07:31 GMT
I have no preference. Valves or transistors can be equally satisfactory to my ears and I have liked both. I've also heard poor examples of each. Seems to me, a good amplifier should not have a signature sound. I agree but I think the majority of people consider a good amplifier - or any component - to be one that that has a signature sound that they like. They don't care that it imparts that signature onto every recording they play. I suppose there is nothing that does not have at least some 'signature', especially speakers. So I suppose there is some justification for not caring. |
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Post by sq225917 on Nov 12, 2019 18:11:01 GMT
Its euphony from valves but no reason not to enjoy it. Many of us like vinyl for a similar reason.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 18:15:06 GMT
At least with transistor amps there's less temptation to piss about with them. No trying loads of different valves or constantly rebiasing to get it 'just right'. (just don't mention op-amps  ) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 18:27:40 GMT
Its euphony from valves but no reason not to enjoy it. Many of us like vinyl for a similar reason. Nope.... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 20:06:31 GMT
I would never have said NVA do “air and space” anywhere near as well as the most proficient valve amps. I kinda found them a good compromise that sat half way between solid state muscle and valve openness, but they couldn’t compete with the best of either on their strengths. If you want a balance though, they were well positioned. No I wasn't suggesting they do but they certainly don't sound harsh or strident like some solid-state amps. I have heard only one small one, sounded OK |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 12, 2019 20:29:01 GMT
I would never have said NVA do “air and space” anywhere near as well as the most proficient valve amps. I kinda found them a good compromise that sat half way between solid state muscle and valve openness, but they couldn’t compete with the best of either on their strengths. If you want a balance though, they were well positioned. No I wasn't suggesting they do but they certainly don't sound harsh or strident like some solid-state amps. I have heard only one small one, sounded OK To be fair, I haven’t heard any SS amps that have done the air and space thing as well as valves. Unsurprisingly the Campion has been closest but it still can’t match something like an Audion in this respect. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 20:46:58 GMT
No I wasn't suggesting they do but they certainly don't sound harsh or strident like some solid-state amps. I have heard only one small one, sounded OK To be fair, I haven’t heard any SS amps that have done the air and space thing as well as valves. Unsurprisingly the Campion has been closest but it still can’t match something like an Audion in this respect. You won't do. SS amps can't replicate that due to having no valves. Oddly, when listening to the 686 recently on a largely acoustic guitar/vocal track, what replaced the airy, openness was accuracy and transparency. Valves are wonderful to listen to, especially in the extra good gear and as I have said, I love them. They make an illusion of organic matter, breathy vocals and sweet and delicate HF, but largely, in all but the best valve amps, the bass is horribly one note, loose and often out of control. I have had a lot of exposure to Valve gear, especially listening to everything Alan makes and repairs. The only amps to not exhibit this effect, that I have personally heard, is the MUSIC FIRST Monos, the Sondex and Alan's OTL. The Sondex didn't win any prizes to my ears and when coupled with the croft pre, it sounded a little excitable. Enjoy the preamp and if you want it modding, see if Firebottle can do anything. There hasn't been a valve amp, pre or phonostage he hasn't audibly Improved with his knowledge. That's my honest opinion. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 23:49:32 GMT
Why do I use valve amps.
1. They just look the biz.
2. They glow in the dark.
3. The speakers I use seem to like them. This is especially true in the mid range.
4. The valve amps I use do not sound like valve amps they are fast, articulate, dynamic, sweet, with bass that is as tight, crisp, and good and deep as any
out there.
They sound more like a good modern solid state amp, I cannot stand that warm, wolly slow valve sound that so many seem to associate with valve amps. Like
Quad's can't tolerate the things.
I wish I could afford something like a Pass Labs XA series class A amp those amps have a sound I find particularly appealing.
There are to many variables with associate equipment to make a blanket statement that a valve amp is superior to a solid state, there are some examples of both I do not like and visa versa.
Everybody has their preferences, hell there are some things out there my friends go ga ga over that I simply find just average.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 0:54:11 GMT
What about them keeping your house warm ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 1:11:41 GMT
What about them keeping your house warm ? Not good for summer but then I run fans on mine, heat kills, I do not care about the noise from the fans cause you see I like to listen a tad loud. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 13, 2019 8:20:47 GMT
Am I effectively using the AI P1 as a tube buffer?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 14:06:16 GMT
My god there's some bollox being talked in this thread.... just deleted my technical post as obviously "hearsay" and "what I read somewhere" have infinitely greater authority and meaning....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 14:38:30 GMT
My god there's some bollox being talked in this thread.... just deleted my technical post as obviously "hearsay" and "what I read somewhere" have infinitely greater authority and meaning.... tenor.com/view/crying-gif-8862281
Lighten up Jez 
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