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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 17:20:57 GMT
What is this , Junkie Corner ? 🤪 Hardly. A joint is about as dangerous as a cheese sandwich. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 17:26:43 GMT
I was being sarky. 😕
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 17:32:19 GMT
Now I'm only talking about my own experience and am not saying it's true of everyone but I smoked almost constantly from the age of 14 until I was 30 and achieved next to F*** all apart from owning a killer record collection. After giving up I now am 10 years from the end of a mortgage, own a little flat in Spain out right, I've travelled right through India from Kashmir down to Sri Lanka and have been to Afraica, South East Asia and the West Indies and am not far of being reasonably secure. Having said that I'm hoping to semi retire next year to my place in Spain where it's legall to grow up to four plants so I'm thinking of growing some low THC weed to cook with and to just take the edge off.. On the subject of drinking not all people who enjoy a drink are violent nutters and I've met plenty of younger guys who smoke strong weed and are both paranoid and angry and don't mind a punch up so that's a flawed arguement. I enjoy a drink as does my brother and most of the older guys I work on site with and none of us are violent and turn into arseholes after a few. Most of the guy's in their 20's and 30's at work smoke all day and believe me they're not chilled out hippies the drug of choice for most of those guys is cocaine it's perfectly normal for them to go out Friday, Saturday and Sunday on the gear, drinking like fish and smoking copious amounts. The drug taking of my youth involved a few E's, some hash and some good music but it's a very different world today. My view is the War on drugs is lost and was a hopeless, hypocritical waste of time anyway. Class B drugs should be legal and possesion of class A's a non criminal offence treated as a health issue and help and intervention offered where needed. Dealers of Crack, Heroin and all class A's should be treated very harshly IMO.. Anyway back to the thread for me records played on a decent record player with a decent amp and speakers just sounds so much better and so all the faffing around is worth it and as engine says can be enjoyable. Streaming services like Tidal are fantastic for discovering new music, trying before you buy the record and internet radio which I Love but I've had Naim streamers, Chord 2Qute and Hugo Dacs with PSU's, fancy cables and numerous very good streaming transports and though good they don't come close to a decent record player. At the moment I have a Chromecast Audio connected to a MF V DAC/V PSU and it's great for casual and background listening but if I want toi sit and get right into the music it's vinyl every time.. I worked in print and dealt with ad agencies so many of those assholes used to come in high on coke. Bloody dicks all burnt out eventually. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 17:53:03 GMT
Surely not? I'd never have thought that of you.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 18:25:50 GMT
What is this , Junkie Corner ? 🤪 Hardly. A joint is about as dangerous as a cheese sandwich. Now that depends what cheese I've some French was that are lethal. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 18:26:33 GMT
Now I'm only talking about my own experience and am not saying it's true of everyone but I smoked almost constantly from the age of 14 until I was 30 and achieved next to F*** all apart from owning a killer record collection. After giving up I now am 10 years from the end of a mortgage, own a little flat in Spain out right, I've travelled right through India from Kashmir down to Sri Lanka and have been to Afraica, South East Asia and the West Indies and am not far of being reasonably secure. Having said that I'm hoping to semi retire next year to my place in Spain where it's legall to grow up to four plants so I'm thinking of growing some low THC weed to cook with and to just take the edge off.. On the subject of drinking not all people who enjoy a drink are violent nutters and I've met plenty of younger guys who smoke strong weed and are both paranoid and angry and don't mind a punch up so that's a flawed arguement. I enjoy a drink as does my brother and most of the older guys I work on site with and none of us are violent and turn into arseholes after a few. Most of the guy's in their 20's and 30's at work smoke all day and believe me they're not chilled out hippies the drug of choice for most of those guys is cocaine it's perfectly normal for them to go out Friday, Saturday and Sunday on the gear, drinking like fish and smoking copious amounts. The drug taking of my youth involved a few E's, some hash and some good music but it's a very different world today. My view is the War on drugs is lost and was a hopeless, hypocritical waste of time anyway. Class B drugs should be legal and possesion of class A's a non criminal offence treated as a health issue and help and intervention offered where needed. Dealers of Crack, Heroin and all class A's should be treated very harshly IMO.. Anyway back to the thread for me records played on a decent record player with a decent amp and speakers just sounds so much better and so all the faffing around is worth it and as engine says can be enjoyable. Streaming services like Tidal are fantastic for discovering new music, trying before you buy the record and internet radio which I Love but I've had Naim streamers, Chord 2Qute and Hugo Dacs with PSU's, fancy cables and numerous very good streaming transports and though good they don't come close to a decent record player. At the moment I have a Chromecast Audio connected to a MF V DAC/V PSU and it's great for casual and background listening but if I want toi sit and get right into the music it's vinyl every time.. I worked in print and dealt with ad agencies so many of those assholes used to come in high on coke. Bloody dicks all burnt out eventually. Knob heads |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 18:56:19 GMT
Hardly. A joint is about as dangerous as a cheese sandwich. Now that depends what cheese I've some French was that are lethal. I have some particularly pungent St Agur and Camembert at the moment. I get moaned at by the family for stinking the fridge out. Had a big lump of St Agur on its own earlier, absolutely yummy and extremely smelly. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 20:00:48 GMT
Now that depends what cheese I've some French was that are lethal. I have some particularly pungent St Agur and Camembert at the moment. I get moaned at by the family for stinking the fridge out. Had a big lump of St Agur on its own earlier, absolutely yummy and extremely smelly. Lovely, my other half hates anything other medium cheddar so same problem, so I just usually eat it one sitting! I'm going to Spain this week and I'll be eating some beautiful Manchego not as potent as some French cheeses but beauifully creamy. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 20:03:59 GMT
I have some particularly pungent St Agur and Camembert at the moment. I get moaned at by the family for stinking the fridge out. Had a big lump of St Agur on its own earlier, absolutely yummy and extremely smelly. Lovely, my other half hates anything other medium cheddar so same problem, so I just usually eat it one sitting! I'm going to Spain this week and I'll be eating some beautiful Manchego not as potent as some French cheeses but beauifully creamy. Yeah. Manchego is one of my treats too, as was the similar Mahon, also from Spain, but I can't get it locally any more. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 20:10:49 GMT
Lovely, my other half hates anything other medium cheddar so same problem, so I just usually eat it one sitting! I'm going to Spain this week and I'll be eating some beautiful Manchego not as potent as some French cheeses but beauifully creamy. Yeah. Manchego is one of my treats too, as was the similar Mahon, also from Spain, but I can't get it locally any more. I'll have a Mahon for you. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 20:34:29 GMT
Yeah. Manchego is one of my treats too, as was the similar Mahon, also from Spain, but I can't get it locally any more. I'll have a Mahon for you. Oh I've no doubt I can pick some up from Waitrose or M&S. Just too bloody lazy to drive the five miles to get some. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 20:38:24 GMT
I'll have a Mahon for you. Oh I've no doubt I can pick some up from Waitrose or M&S. Just too bloody lazy to drive the five miles to get some. 1.5 miles is your max limit. Saw it for myself, and boy I was shocked! I'll grab my coat. S. |
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Post by dsjr on Nov 5, 2019 8:36:53 GMT
Interesting post on ASR regarding vinyl and CD. I still think loudspeakers are the pits quite often - we've discussed slim 'porty' boxes, but less with crossover issues where our ears are so sensitive and where a slightl softening effect may 'sound' better..
Not my words-
'I did a similar test on 2 albums, both likely to originate form the same master. I listened, and did some analysis of the signals. Here is what I found:
- Difference is on such scale that doing an abx is not necessary.
- Bass is more tight and defined on digital.
- Highs are softer on vinyl.
- Noise level is much higher on vinyl.
- Digital has better imaging.
- Measured dr difference is very small, around 1dB if I remember correctly, digital had slightly better dr.
- Spectral distribution analysis reveals that the vinyl is rolled off at higher frequencies. Trying to compensate for that using eq does not make it sound similar.
I did processing on the vinyls to remove the worst of the clicks and pops.
The samples where taken from 80ies albums, one of them was the great classic from Art Of Noise, Paranoimia. Those albums were created before brickwall limiting came into fashion, which explain why the dr is the same. Phase shift on the vinyl will cause a limited signal to measure higher dr because peak-to-mean increases.
The differences at higher frequencies are due to physical limitations on the vinyl. There is nonlinear compression, working such that higher frequencies are limited in amplitude. This causes the measured roll-off in the spectral analysis, and is the reason for the perceived softer highs.
Vinyl is great - for listening to those old albums. And tweaking with tone arms, pick-ups, trying out different preamps. But it is clearly inferior, from a technical perspective, and it does not sound better.'
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 8:58:01 GMT
From the man who says 'vinyls' and uses digitally over produced 80's synth pop as an acid test.
Oh .. and my records don't have crackles and pops. None of them. If he's looked after his 'vinylsss' with the care of a neanderthal then the test is void to start with obviously as he's using one of the formats in a damaged state.
Would he use a scratched CD or a damaged streamer to even the odds ?
And I don't listen to music from a technical Perspective.
Only a twat would ever do that. 😁
And to then after putting over a statement he claims to be a technical piece , he comes out with a purely subjective statement veiled as a fact like "it does not sound better " shows him up as someone with a totally biased personal agenda.
I'm not impressed. He doesn't come over as very intelligent I'm afraid. I honestly think it's a very blunt trolling post.
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I'll leave you with an analogy. .....
I love jacket spuds. I fact every one loves my jacket spuds. I'm a bloody jacket spud artist !
I can cook a jacket spud in the microwave in 5 minutes. Hot , soft and evenly cooked. Technically perfect.
Or I can take an hour or more in highly inefficient technically piss poor gas oven , crisp the skin and really enjoy the fucker ! 😌
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 10:03:50 GMT
The Vinyl vs digital debate is in itself entirely flawed. It's like comparing Cinema to DVD or Chocolate ice creame to chocolate.
Is vinyl flawed? 100%
Most vinyl or replay isn't:
Flat
100% concentric
Clean
100% intact
level
setup right
high enough quality
Isolated enough
That's just to start with. Then you've got the constant degrading of the stylus, grooves, the dust, static and that really small signal having to travel 1m before its processed by often sub-par phonostages which add a flavour of their own to the RIAA response.
Compare that to digital:
Bit perfect (in most cases)
lossless
never degrades
Flat response with a high bandwidth
It's a perfect copy every time too. No deviation in setup, it's just plug and play and everything *should* be perfect. But then you have Jitter and noise from the SMPS's. In the DACs I've heard where Jitter and the SMPS has been taken care of, there is no doubt in my mind that Digital *should* be the perfect format. But it isn't.
I've heard £20k -30k digital front ends and they are hugely impressive BUT if you compare them to a well sorted Vinyl front end, which I have, there is something that just never quite gets digital over the line.
A phrase that came to mind is one told to me.
Analogue is a Cow and digital is like trying to turn minced beef back into a cow.
or this one from Jimbo,
Analogue is like milk, Digital is like powdered milk.
There is just something about digital that's missing when it get to the ear (mine). I have a very good DAC hat on the Pi and I thoroughly enjoy it, but for serious listening, it's always vinyl.
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Post by macca on Nov 5, 2019 12:36:31 GMT
There's no need to spend £30K or even £3k on a digital front end. Total waste of money. One of the advantages of digital is that perfection is very cheap.
I grew up with vinyl, some recordings still don't sound 'right' to me on digital but that's because of what vinyl adds, not what digital misses since it doesn't miss anything.
I agree with Engine - the bloke starts off all objective then at the end lets slip that he isn't.
At the end of the day anyone complaining about the quality of either format needs to sort their system out. Both are easily good enough to get the sort of sound quality where you can forget the format and just enjoy the music.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:48:28 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 13:18:50 GMT
Vinyl just sounds better. I don't think you can correlate technical measurements with how we hear things. It's a faff but if you handle records properly, have a decent deck that doesn't cause wear and invest in a decent cleaning regime, most records will play without many of the issues that CD fans quote as rendering it inferior. It's not about noise levels or frequency range but reproducing music. For some reason digital just doesn't ever quite achieve the later to the standard of a good (all analogue) Lp record. I think if you are of a certain age the odd click and a little surface noise is dialed into the brain. For people who grew up on CD any noise other than the music itself can be intolerable. Funny enough vinyl has found more favour with a generation brought up on files and Iphones. People looking for a more tactile format that sounds better than an Mp3 over earbuds. Unfortunately to some of them vinyl flaws have a cool factor playing expensive discs on plastic record players.
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Post by macca on Nov 5, 2019 13:33:49 GMT
You can correlate the technical side to what we hear.
Advantages of vinyl over digital
1) low stereo separation
2) Mono bass
3) harmonic distortion
4) acoustic feedback adding reverb
All these things have been shown to 'sound better' for various psycho acoustic reasons. Particularly the reverb created by acoustic feedback. A lot of recordings have reverb added because it makes them sound better, a turntable just adds a bit more. It's mostly the reverb that adds that sense of euphoria and 'realism'.
There's no mystery to any of it. Vinyl's technical weaknesses (pops and clicks and the high noise floor aside) are its strengths once away from the test bench and out in the real world.
You could do all this to a digital signal if you wanted to but I don't think many people do.
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Post by dsjr on Nov 5, 2019 14:31:29 GMT
Same with some bodged up dacs it appears including most 'ladder nos' types I believe. Add a spray of high level harmonic distortions and noise across the board at old fashioned amp levels, roll off the extreme hf a tad and in the case of one dac with output transformers, the added low bass saturation of a tranny-coupled amp and lo and behold, the latest audiophile wonder-dac with a 'musically involving' tone.
Macca pointed me in the right direction some time ago as to what copious amounts of 'almost audible' thd spread over the band coupled with a little hf compression does to the sound - it really does seem to give it a slightly creamy 'poster-paint' kind of tonal colour to everything played through it. Take this away and the result can be more 'clinical' at first, but all of a sudden, you start to hear more differences in mixing and recording production quality I found. Thing is, like macca, I've recently heard earlier CD players which don't appear to 'sound' anything like as 'bad' as I thought they were at the time - and then I remembered the gear we used thirty five years ago and the penny began to drop...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 15:33:44 GMT
There must be something wrong with me. Any super-serious listening is done via CD, as to my ears it just sounds better. Added to that is the fact that you're a stage closer to the original source.
For me, playing vinyl is fun, nostalgia and wackiness in equal measures.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 21:35:21 GMT
You can correlate the technical side to what we hear. Advantages of vinyl over digital 1) low stereo separation 2) Mono bass 3) harmonic distortion 4) acoustic feedback adding reverb All these things have been shown to 'sound better' for various psycho acoustic reasons. Particularly the reverb created by acoustic feedback. A lot of recordings have reverb added because it makes them sound better, a turntable just adds a bit more. It's mostly the reverb that adds that sense of euphoria and 'realism'. There's no mystery to any of it. Vinyl's technical weaknesses (pops and clicks and the high noise floor aside) are its strengths once away from the test bench and out in the real world. You could do all this to a digital signal if you wanted to but I don't think many people do. Very rare that you make a blanket statement Macca. Vinyl doesn't have to be loaded with 2nd order harmonics or have a high noise floor. In fact, if you endeavour to find a phonostage that has excellent SNR and 2nd order harmonics at least as low as the noise floor, what you end up with is an incredibly clean signal and none of the "vinyl" stereotypes that are usually associated with it. Whilst my phonostage doesn't quite get to the level of the PecanPi in terms of measurements, it is a damn site better than most of the crap out there. From the stereophile review of the LP5.3rs "All the distortion harmonics are at or below the noise floor, and the actual level of THD (true RMS sum of the harmonics) was 0.0008% left and 0.001% right. Fig.2 Simaudio Moon LP5.3, spectrum of 1kHz sinewave, DC–10kHz, at 1V into 8k ohms (linear frequency scale)" I also know of a phonostage in development that will improve on this further. |
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Post by macca on Nov 5, 2019 23:14:21 GMT
I never said that the distortion came from the phono stage.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 23:47:00 GMT
I never said that the distortion came from the phono stage. Well, no you didn't. Fair cop gov. |
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