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Post by zleepy on Sept 8, 2022 10:49:40 GMT
I rarely post in this forum but I thoroughly enjoy to read and follow what you guys are doing. To me this is one of the best audio forums so thanks for that. I just read the "Visit to Arke Audio" thread and that seem to have sparked an interest in Troels speakers so I thought I would share my recent project. I happen to have built Troels' Faital 3WC10. Well, that's a lie because I had the cabinets and stands made by a carpenter. So actually only putting the crossover together and assembling everything. I'd love to do the woodwork but I don't have the facility, tools and not really the time either. Troels' description of the Faital series speakers made me choose them. The 10" bass driver version was chosen because they are placed in our living room and I'm not the only one with opinions on the furnishing... The internal wiring of choice was neotech up-occ and the speaker posts are rather flashy looking pure copper ones from aliexpress. Below are a couple of pictures (the speakers are placed backwards on the stands. This was their first time in our living room just to get a sense of how they would fit): So, how do I like them? Well I do like them very much but they are different from what I thought they would be. In my room and with my setup their biggest trait is a really open, detailed and natural sounding midrange. I thought I would be wowed by the bass and dynamics. Not so. The bass is sufficient but not more present than with my previous speakers (Sonus Faber Venere 2,5). The bass is more accurate though which was expected. The other thing that stands out is that they disappear, and I mean completely disappear when listening to them. Closing my eyes I cannot tell where those large boxes are at all. This I like very much. They create a wide and fairly deep soundstage where the height might be a bit lacking to be really realistic. The imaging is not pinpoint precision like but fully adequate for me. These things has more to do with the room though so I would expect the soundstage and imaging to improve a lot in a treated room. What I don't like is that they are not as easy to drive as I thought. My 300B parallel push pull tube amp putting out 21WPC is lacking in the bass. Sadly. I really wanted the speakers to be a great match for that amp. I also need to change a resistor in the tweeter crossover as I find the treble is slightly rolled off. Troels did leave the resistor choice up to the listener. Hope you found this interesting. I am glad to try to answer any questions that you might have about them. /Karl
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Bigman80
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AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2022 10:58:10 GMT
Hi Karl!
Wow! They look fantastic.
I've spent pretty much all my time reading up on Troels designs since I visited Jason, so this thread is very welcome. Thank you.
Can I ask how much it cost to get the cabinets made?
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Post by zleepy on Sept 8, 2022 11:13:49 GMT
Hi Karl! Wow! They look fantastic. I've spent pretty much all my time reading up on Troels designs since I visited Jason, so this thread is very welcome. Thank you. Can I ask how much it cost to get the cabinets made? Thanks Oli, I am pleased with how they came out. I also have some vintage(ish) looking grey grills which I don't normally use as the bare drivers don't bother me. They do tidy up the appearance though. I got a good deal on the cabinets, stands and grills. I paid 740€ for the lot. The material is 21mm birch ply veneered with Olive Ash and finished with 2 comp automotive lacquer. Olive Ash is naturally a two tone wood but I had the chance to get the darker parts trimmed off completely. I could not believe this kind of service was available, especially not when it was for free! /Karl
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2022 11:18:26 GMT
They look fantastic mate. Cab costs are very reasonable too. This sort of information could be very illuminating for those who'd like to try a Troels design.
Certainly got my brain working.
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Post by zleepy on Sept 8, 2022 11:31:13 GMT
I might add I bought all the drivers separately from axiomedia in Italy. They set me back almost exactly the same amount as the cabinets, stands and grills. This was with tax and shipping included. So 740€ for the drivers.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2022 11:36:53 GMT
I might add I bought all the drivers separately from axiomedia in Italy. They set me back almost exactly the same amount as the cabinets, stands and grills. This was with tax and shipping included. So 740€ for the drivers. So you're about €1500 in? I bet you can't buy a speaker as good as that from a dealer for that price!
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Post by pete on Sept 8, 2022 11:40:48 GMT
These really do look amazing Karl, really professional job. Like Oliver, cabinet making would be holding me back on doing a project like this. But knowing there are cabinet makers out there, who can complete a job to this standard, opens up a new opportunity to personally build a great speaker.
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Post by zleepy on Sept 8, 2022 11:53:57 GMT
I might add I bought all the drivers separately from axiomedia in Italy. They set me back almost exactly the same amount as the cabinets, stands and grills. This was with tax and shipping included. So 740€ for the drivers. So you're about €1500 in? I bet you can't buy a speaker as good as that from a dealer for that price! Nope, you still have to count in the kit from Janzen audio which at the time was another 850€ tax and shipping included. All in some 2400€. So this was certainly not a cheap project by any means and by far my biggest risk I have taken during my audio journey. Kind of crazy to spend that amount on a DIY speaker which you buy totally blindly... But I'm glad I took the risk and for me it was worth it. It was a long time itch that I just had to scratch. I'm certain they play in a different league than commercial speakers in the same price range. They do better the Sonus Fabers by a comfortable margin and they were 3k+ speakers 10 years ago. Based on my experience with this project I would say Troels designs are a sensible choice for a DIY speaker.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Sept 8, 2022 11:54:36 GMT
Hi Karl,
Absolutely fantastic. They look great! I've always thought the Faital 3WCs looked like an amazing amount of speaker for the money. Was that 1500 including the crossover parts and kit from Jantzen too?
How long have you been using them? The bass may open up in time.
All the best, Jason
Edit: just seen your recent post. You beat me to it!
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Bigman80
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AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2022 12:00:05 GMT
Ah! Even so, that's a lot of quality for the cash.
Off to Troels website again 😂.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Sept 8, 2022 12:21:47 GMT
Hi Karl! Wow! They look fantastic. I've spent pretty much all my time reading up on Troels designs since I visited Jason, so this thread is very welcome. Thank you. Can I ask how much it cost to get the cabinets made? Thanks Oli, I am pleased with how they came out. I also have some vintage(ish) looking grey grills which I don't normally use as the bare drivers don't bother me. They do tidy up the appearance though. I got a good deal on the cabinets, stands and grills. I paid 740€ for the lot. The material is 21mm birch ply veneered with Olive Ash and finished with 2 comp automotive lacquer. Olive Ash is naturally a two tone wood but I had the chance to get the darker parts trimmed off completely. I could not believe this kind of service was available, especially not when it was for free! /Karl That cabinet price sounds about right. I assume you did the bitumen, felt, Crossovers, driver fit, wiring and assembly etc.? Are you UK based? Just wondering as you quoted build in Euros?
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Post by zleepy on Sept 8, 2022 12:39:33 GMT
The bitumen and felt was actually applied by the carpenter since it had to be done before gluing the front baffle to the box. Everything else I did. I have to say though that I think the carpenter underestimated the work involved when quoting me. I still think it was cheap. I am really happy with the stands as well and those were included. Custom designed from steel profiles with matte paint and matte 2 comp clear coat. Was quoted 110€/pair for them. Stands alone cost at least the double from a commercial dealer, for example some similar ones: www.crutchfield.com/S-DTIi4F5j2Ec/p_109JS120B/JBL-JS120.htmlHad I tried doing everything myself I'd probably still be on it and spent the same amount or more on materials, tools, paint, veneer, clear coat etc. I live in Finland. Hence the price quotes in €. /Karl
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Sept 8, 2022 12:59:38 GMT
The bitumen and felt was actually applied by the carpenter since it had to be done before gluing the front baffle to the box. Everything else I did. I have to say though that I think the carpenter underestimated the work involved when quoting me. I still think it was cheap. I am really happy with the stands as well and those were included. Custom designed from steel profiles with matte paint and matte 2 comp clear coat. Stands alone cost at least the double from a commercial dealer, for example some similar ones: www.crutchfield.com/S-DTIi4F5j2Ec/p_109JS120B/JBL-JS120.htmlHad I tried doing everything myself I'd probably still be on it and spent the same amount or more on materials, tools, paint, veneer, clear coat etc. I live in Finland. Hence the price quotes in €. /Karl That does seem like a great price for cabinets, stands and grilles. He probably did underestimate for all that - great for you. Lovely looking job. That's the frustration of being UK based... Poor exchange rate and we have to pay high VAT and import taxes. 😕 Enjoy. BTW, how run in are they?
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Post by zleepy on Sept 8, 2022 13:17:08 GMT
The bitumen and felt was actually applied by the carpenter since it had to be done before gluing the front baffle to the box. Everything else I did. I have to say though that I think the carpenter underestimated the work involved when quoting me. I still think it was cheap. I am really happy with the stands as well and those were included. Custom designed from steel profiles with matte paint and matte 2 comp clear coat. Stands alone cost at least the double from a commercial dealer, for example some similar ones: www.crutchfield.com/S-DTIi4F5j2Ec/p_109JS120B/JBL-JS120.htmlHad I tried doing everything myself I'd probably still be on it and spent the same amount or more on materials, tools, paint, veneer, clear coat etc. I live in Finland. Hence the price quotes in €. /Karl That does seem like a great price for cabinets, stands and grilles. He probably did underestimate for all that - great for you. Lovely looking job. That's the frustration of being UK based... Poor exchange rate and we have to pay high VAT and import taxes. 😕 Enjoy. BTW, how run in are they? I assume they are fully run in. I've probably put ~300hrs on them. I know they like more power than my tube amp has on tap because I've tried them with other amps and they got more punchy and dynamic in the bass. The midrange is magic with the tube amp though... The 3WC10 are fantastically transparent in the midrange allowing whatever upstream components to show their capability or lack thereof.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Sept 8, 2022 13:54:58 GMT
That does seem like a great price for cabinets, stands and grilles. He probably did underestimate for all that - great for you. Lovely looking job. That's the frustration of being UK based... Poor exchange rate and we have to pay high VAT and import taxes. 😕 Enjoy. BTW, how run in are they? I assume they are fully run in. I've probably put ~300hrs on them. I know they like more power than my tube amp has on tap because I've tried them with other amps and they got more punchy and dynamic in the bass. The midrange is magic with the tube amp though... The 3WC10 are fantastically transparent in the midrange allowing whatever upstream components to show their capability or lack thereof. Yeah, 300hrs should be fully run. You could add one more set of terminals for bi wire and use something more powerful on Bass duties. Keep the Tubes for mid and treble? Troels often advocates Hypex (perhaps a FA251) on each side to run the bass below 400Hz. The hypex would give you the opportunity to manage any troublesome room interactions too. Or just stay fully passive.
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Post by zleepy on Sept 8, 2022 14:22:39 GMT
I assume they are fully run in. I've probably put ~300hrs on them. I know they like more power than my tube amp has on tap because I've tried them with other amps and they got more punchy and dynamic in the bass. The midrange is magic with the tube amp though... The 3WC10 are fantastically transparent in the midrange allowing whatever upstream components to show their capability or lack thereof. Yeah, 300hrs should be fully run. You could add one more set of terminals for bi wire and use something more powerful on Bass duties. Keep the Tubes for mid and treble? Troels often advocates Hypex (perhaps a FA251) on each side to run the bass below 400Hz. The hypex would give you the opportunity to manage any troublesome room interactions too. Or just stay fully passive. Yes, I know. I thought long and hard about other designs incorporating a plate amp for the woofer but thought I'd do without one with the Faital. Adding one to this speaker would be quite an afterthought and not a neat installation. I am still happy with my choice though. Will probably build a Neurochrome 286 for powering the Faitals passively.
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Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,006
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Post by Arke on Sept 8, 2022 14:24:09 GMT
Yeah, 300hrs should be fully run. You could add one more set of terminals for bi wire and use something more powerful on Bass duties. Keep the Tubes for mid and treble? Troels often advocates Hypex (perhaps a FA251) on each side to run the bass below 400Hz. The hypex would give you the opportunity to manage any troublesome room interactions too. Or just stay fully passive. Yes, I know. I thought long and hard about other designs incorporating a plate amp for the woofer but thought I'd do without one with the Faital. Adding one to this speaker would be quite an afterthought and not a neat installation. I am still happy with my choice though. Will probably build a Neurochrome 286 for powering the Faitals passively. I think a Neurochrome would be great, let us know how it goes. Yeah, Hypex add on would be difficult to do neatly - probably easier in a nice offboard case.
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Post by antonio on Sept 8, 2022 14:53:50 GMT
zleepy Pleased to see you have posted again because they a great looking speakers, also it is nice to gauge the costs of these builds and just to add, you picked a wonderful finish.
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Post by zleepy on Sept 9, 2022 5:12:30 GMT
Thanks for all the positive comments
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Post by zleepy on Sept 11, 2022 14:29:52 GMT
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Post by macca on Sept 11, 2022 14:34:48 GMT
Look great, the grey grills are a nice touch. Where did you get the stands from?
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Post by zleepy on Sept 11, 2022 14:39:53 GMT
Look great, the grey grills are a nice touch. Where did you get the stands from? Thanks! The stands are custom made by the carpenter that made the cabinets. I pretty much copied the design from the JBL L100 speakers but kept them straight instead of tilting backwards. The height is such that the mid drivers are on ear height when sitting in our living room sofa.
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Post by macca on Sept 11, 2022 14:54:57 GMT
I wondered if they were custom, it's so hard to find stands like that being retailed.
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Post by lurch on Sept 11, 2022 16:15:29 GMT
Easy enough to knock up with 2m of 25x25 box, 1m of 25x50 box and a welder,, either myself or Jamie could sort that for you.
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Post by zleepy on Sept 11, 2022 16:33:42 GMT
Easy enough to knock up with 2m of 25x25 box, 1m of 25x50 box and a welder,, either myself or Jamie could sort that for you. Yes indeed. It's a very straightforward design.
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Post by antonio on Sept 11, 2022 17:00:46 GMT
lurch You've got a box of 6" nails John?
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Sept 11, 2022 17:41:02 GMT
Looks great! Love the grilles and the veneer looks great. What is the gap behind them to the wall?
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Post by lurch on Sept 11, 2022 17:41:58 GMT
lurch You've got a box of 6" nails John? Nope. But I've got a MIG welder in the garage.
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Post by zleepy on Sept 11, 2022 17:44:21 GMT
Looks great! Love the grilles and the veneer looks great. What is the gap behind them to the wall? I have them some 30cm from the wall. Also a compromise.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Sept 11, 2022 17:46:03 GMT
Looks great! Love the grilles and the veneer looks great. What is the gap behind them to the wall? I have them some 30cm from the wall. Also a compromise. It's good to know they are well controlled just 30cm from the wall.
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