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Post by hifinutt on Feb 11, 2023 11:19:15 GMT
"Chaps, I'm not talking about the output devices getting hot, I'm talking about the transformer getting hot.
Those Toroidy traffos are quite nasty. They have low(ish) quality cores that are too small for 240v and because of this they have lower efficiency. That means they loose a lot of power as heat. If you were to reach inside your amp to touch them (DON'T) you would retract your hand very quickly. Surface temp (of the traffo) likely 55degC = not good"
is this a reasonable point ? i have no idea . what is a toroidy traffo ?
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2023 11:30:24 GMT
Maybe he was but doesn't mean there is any truth to it. That was my point. It makes sense to the uninitiated and to anyone who has heard a 2000 watt PA amp sound a bit rough I suppose. (Although quite likely it was the PA speakers that sounded bad).
Lots of amplifiers have rising distortion as output power increases. If you look at the Krell 'S' series amplifier measurements in Stereophile you can see that the 100s has higher distortion than 50S and the 300S has higher distortion than the 100s. So in that specific case at least it is true that the higher power output the higher the distortion. But none of them have anything approaching audible distortion until they start clipping. So it's just not relevant to anything we will actually hear.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 11, 2023 11:31:17 GMT
"Chaps, I'm not talking about the output devices getting hot, I'm talking about the transformer getting hot. Those Toroidy traffos are quite nasty. They have low(ish) quality cores that are too small for 240v and because of this they have lower efficiency. That means they loose a lot of power as heat. If you were to reach inside your amp to touch them (DON'T) you would retract your hand very quickly. Surface temp (of the traffo) likely 55degC = not good" is this a reasonable point ? i have no idea . what is a toroidy traffo ? Ok, it's becoming a bit of a witch hunt. This fella obviously has an axe to grind about something. ANY 230v standard toroidal transformer will run hotter than it should in the UK. 230v transformers are ok with a +/-10vac The transformers I use are all specced at 240v for UK customers as the mains in my area is 247v. That's 17v more than a 230v Traffo is rated for and therefore makes it more prone to mechanical vibration and puts it out of it's optimized conditions. Toroidy are absolutely no different to any other Traffo in that regard. I have used Toroidy for YEARS. Amplifiers, phonostages, preamps, power supplies....they have never failed. They are never hot and they are never crap. If JH is using Toroidy, I would hope he specs 240v as the primary for the UK. If he doesn't, someone should let him know. That said, I know MANY manufacturers that don't. |
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2023 11:34:17 GMT
"Chaps, I'm not talking about the output devices getting hot, I'm talking about the transformer getting hot. Those Toroidy traffos are quite nasty. They have low(ish) quality cores that are too small for 240v and because of this they have lower efficiency. That means they loose a lot of power as heat. If you were to reach inside your amp to touch them (DON'T) you would retract your hand very quickly. Surface temp (of the traffo) likely 55degC = not good" is this a reasonable point ? i have no idea . what is a toroidy traffo ? It's just a brand name. heat dissipation is important for longevity of the components inside. Component lifetime is directly related to temperature. So we have heatsinks, fans, and big enclosures where everything can be well spaced out. As to the cores being too small for 240V that sounds unlikely but I don't know. Maybe Tony or Alan could comment? |
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Post by firebottle on Feb 11, 2023 12:05:33 GMT
It's more to do with the primary being specified correctly, as Oli has pointed out. The size of the core will dictate a power limit of course but having a properly specified primary will prevent premature saturation and keep noise levels in check.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 11, 2023 12:32:02 GMT
Well, I wouldn't buy a Denon...but I see what you're saying. Funny really, I was reading that old thread about the Epos ES14 and thinking that was from a time (late 1980s) when the whole 'cult of the designer' thing was just getting going. Epos were a new company trying to sell wat was a relatively expensive but ultimately pretty crude speaker and they had Robin Marshall giving interviews to anyone who would listen (IIRC he was even interviewed in the Guardian - or maybe The Observer). Doesn't take much for the uneducated punter to latch onto this stuff. Like with Formula One - the drivers are now far more of the focus than the cars. How many people who bought a Threshold or a Nakamichi amp back in the day did so because it was designed by NP? I'd guess no-one. The bullshit came later when someone realised they could use it to sell more product. Just popping back in before I pop off again (everything sounds wonderful to me now with 'aided' ears, so no point in arguing on subjectivist based forums any more  ). Robin is a mathematician graduate and was extremely proud of the fact he designed the main ES14 driver on paper with no cad to help him. He cut his design teeth on tweaking every batch of Audiomaster LS3/5A's (the B110 driver was at the extreme end of its tolerance and some were so 'off' they either couldn't be used in this design or needed crossover adjustments - he did all this by hand before submitting them to Hirst research for re-testing). For purely commercial reasons, he allied himself with the 80's Linn-Naim crowd and found an enthusiastic audience, adjusting the final version of the ES14 to suit that crowd.
The ES14 may be a crude speaker as there's no fancy crossover and the tweeter lacked the development he knew it needed (before he was poached and taken away from Epos completely), but that driver in my view was a masterpiece in non computerised design and he took great pride that every one measured the same (he showed me). Had he Naim's profit needs, the ES14 would have launched at a grand or more the pair and ended up double that (they used to be around £420pr I remember).
Hope you're all having fun. Look after your ears fellas, especially if you're over 50!
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Post by hifinutt on Feb 11, 2023 14:21:48 GMT
thanks guys . its good to have you guys to reassure me , dont want to be sizzling in my bed tonight !!!
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2023 15:57:11 GMT
Funny really, I was reading that old thread about the Epos ES14 and thinking that was from a time (late 1980s) when the whole 'cult of the designer' thing was just getting going. Epos were a new company trying to sell wat was a relatively expensive but ultimately pretty crude speaker and they had Robin Marshall giving interviews to anyone who would listen (IIRC he was even interviewed in the Guardian - or maybe The Observer). Doesn't take much for the uneducated punter to latch onto this stuff. Like with Formula One - the drivers are now far more of the focus than the cars. How many people who bought a Threshold or a Nakamichi amp back in the day did so because it was designed by NP? I'd guess no-one. The bullshit came later when someone realised they could use it to sell more product. Just popping back in before I pop off again (everything sounds wonderful to me now with 'aided' ears, so no point in arguing on subjectivist based forums any more ). Robin is a mathematician graduate and was extremely proud of the fact he designed the main ES14 driver on paper with no cad to help him. He cut his design teeth on tweaking every batch of Audiomaster LS3/5A's (the B110 driver was at the extreme end of its tolerance and some were so 'off' they either couldn't be used in this design or needed crossover adjustments - he did all this by hand before submitting them to Hirst research for re-testing). For purely commercial reasons, he allied himself with the 80's Linn-Naim crowd and found an enthusiastic audience, adjusting the final version of the ES14 to suit that crowd.
The ES14 may be a crude speaker as there's no fancy crossover and the tweeter lacked the development he knew it needed (before he was poached and taken away from Epos completely), but that driver in my view was a masterpiece in non computerised design and he took great pride that every one measured the same (he showed me). Had he Naim's profit needs, the ES14 would have launched at a grand or more the pair and ended up double that (they used to be around £420pr I remember).
Hope you're all having fun. Look after your ears fellas, especially if you're over 50!
hi Dave. Not saying RM did not know what he was doing. But stand by my comments re the ES14 - www.stereophile.com/content/epos-es-14-loudspeaker-measurements - toppy and peaky with no real bass. Be fine for Blue Nile, Dire Straits, Carol Kidd and Mary Black but everything else will be 'A bad recording'. You could buy a much better speaker back then for the same or less money. But people love a back story. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 11, 2023 18:06:53 GMT
thanks guys . its good to have you guys to reassure me , dont want to be sizzling in my bed tonight !!! If i were you, i'd take anything that fella says on PFM with a pinch of salt. There is obviously an ulterior motive to his posts. Toroidy traffo's are fine. No concerns from me. I would recommend speccing them for 240v for use in the UK. It gives a far better margin. |
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Post by hifinutt on Feb 11, 2023 19:59:06 GMT
thanks ollie
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2023 20:47:31 GMT
It's the muppets getting all morally outraged because someone might be making a few quid from a design that's in the public domain that get me.
Okay JH shouldn't be using the name but that's NP's issue not theirs.
And there's nothing worse than someone making serious claims without simultaneously backing them up with evidence. 'Ask ZM your honour, get someone to tell you who he is.'
FFS.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 11, 2023 21:22:54 GMT
It's the muppets getting all morally outraged because someone might be making a few quid from a design that's in the public domain that get me. Okay JH shouldn't be using the name but that's NP's issue not theirs. And there's nothing worse than someone making serious claims without simultaneously backing them up with evidence. 'Ask ZM your honour, get someone to tell you who he is.' FFS. It's got merit. Should he be making and selling amps designed by someone else and making a profit? Without permission....no. However, from the prices, I think he's only charging for parts and his time....if he uses official PCBs, then those guys get a cut anyway. Then I'm OK with it. Same as these Troels speakers. Troels doesn't want to make them for people....so he sells a kit. Jason buys the kit of Troels and has informed him of his intentions and it's all above board. That's ok IMO. If he were knocking out Etka without Troels getting a cut....then no. That would be naughty. |
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2023 21:36:48 GMT
Not quite the same as Troels sells the driver and crossovers as I understand it. So he's getting a taste on each one built. It's in his interests for more of his designs to get built.
Fact is if you put your designs in the public domain then people will copy them and some people will make a few quid doing it. And that's all it is, a few quid. Give me a shout when JH opens a factory and has a production line running 24/7
But he never will as the market is just too small and I doubt he would even if it wasn't.
There's really nothing to see here apart from some high horses.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 11, 2023 22:05:37 GMT
Not quite the same as Troels sells the driver and crossovers as I understand it. So he's getting a taste on each one built. It's in his interests for more of his designs to get built. Fact is if you put your designs in the public domain then people will copy them and some people will make a few quid doing it. And that's all it is, a few quid. Give me a shout when JH opens a factory and has a production line running 24/7 But he never will as the market is just too small and I doubt he would even if it wasn't. There's really nothing to see here apart from some high horses. And a fair bit of ego |
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Post by hifinutt on May 31, 2024 11:55:16 GMT
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Post by sq225917 on Jun 1, 2024 11:51:28 GMT
Different for sure, better is an opinion.
Compared to the 3 and 30 models, they're quieter, psu is better designed, psrr is much better but they're still class A, mostly second harmonic distortion.
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Post by hifinutt on Jun 1, 2024 16:37:27 GMT
thanks so much . could be just a sideways move then ?
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Post by hifinutt on Oct 22, 2024 15:49:21 GMT
well the F5 are on Dynaudio duty now . 88 db sensitivity . only about 55 hours on them [ apparently need 150 ] and they can be quite boomy . at the moment i dont know whether thats the F5 , using iso pucks underneath them or need more running in . in the shop they were much more controlled but that was a well run in pair and an arcam amp
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). Robin is a mathematician graduate and was extremely proud of the fact he designed the main ES14 driver on paper with no cad to help him. He cut his design teeth on tweaking every batch of Audiomaster LS3/5A's (the B110 driver was at the extreme end of its tolerance and some were so 'off' they either couldn't be used in this design or needed crossover adjustments - he did all this by hand before submitting them to Hirst research for re-testing). For purely commercial reasons, he allied himself with the 80's Linn-Naim crowd and found an enthusiastic audience, adjusting the final version of the ES14 to suit that crowd. 
