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Post by sq225917 on Jul 29, 2019 16:16:55 GMT
Bespoke audio is music first, same guys, same build, different boxes.
For the record the 10x markup is from manufacturer cost, through distros and then retail. A shed man is likely to be cost plus hourly x2.
For shits and giggles see if you can break down the parts cost and my hourly for building a Paradise at £1800.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 16:31:37 GMT
Does have vat, they come from Poland! He just prefers USD to Euro. No duty, nothing. It's £300 + £20 delivery all in and how is it apples and oranges? It price of a preamp vs price of a preamp. You are justifying prices rather than challenging them. Cost of living here and Poland are miles apart. The Khozmo looks over priced when comparing to some of these Chinese offerings. Since you can't give a good example I'll do it for you. This costs £15k - www.thebespokeaudiocompany.com/our-productOn cmon, that's a ridiculous reason. However, if that is the case, as Tomasz is going to be living in Poland (last I heard), maybe we can expect a reduction in the cost of NVA gear, you know, seeing as the cost of living is lower there? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 16:55:45 GMT
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Post by macca on Jul 29, 2019 17:04:30 GMT
Bespoke audio is music first, same guys, same build, different boxes. For the record the 10x markup is from manufacturer cost, through distros and then retail. A shed man is likely to be cost plus hourly x2. For shits and giggles see if you can break down the parts cost and my hourly for building a Paradise at £1800. I'll guess you make a fiver an hour. |
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Post by antonio on Jul 29, 2019 17:09:43 GMT
Cost of living here and Poland are miles apart. The Khozmo looks over priced when comparing to some of these Chinese offerings. Since you can't give a good example I'll do it for you. This costs £15k - www.thebespokeaudiocompany.com/our-productOn cmon, that's a ridiculous reason. However, if that is the case, as Tomasz is going to be living in Poland (last I heard), maybe we can expect a reduction in the cost of NVA gear, you know, seeing as the cost of living is lower there? Of course it's not ridiculous, why have companies been re-locating to China, simple cheaper labour, not because they like Chinese food. Regarding a reduction of cost to NVA gear, read Macca's post again, and as I understand it Tomasz will be coming to the uk for a few days every month to work. It will be interesting to see the new price once Savvypaul has gone into it a bit more. You forget the Doc wanted to keep his turnover low to avoid VAT, and he was happy providing good hifi at more than reasonable prices. I know I would have to spend lots more, at new prices, to even get near the sq I have now. |
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Post by macca on Jul 29, 2019 17:10:56 GMT
I don't know if it is just me but so many people seem to think that hi-fi should be different from any other business and as long as the bloke making it has somewhere to kip and food to eat the rest should be passed on in savings to the punter. If it turns out he's sold 500 amps or whatever and he's having a couple of weeks break in Tenerife the knives come out. He can afford a foreign holiday? Must be profiteering.
When you look at the size of the enthusiast market and the sheer amount of 'me too' competition out there you'd really need rocks in your head to pick it as an area to do business in. There's zero chance of getting rich and only a slim chance you'll even be able to carve out a decent living. The way to end up with a small fortune from selling hi-fi is to start out with a really big fortune.
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Post by antonio on Jul 29, 2019 17:15:30 GMT
Bespoke audio is music first, same guys, same build, different boxes. For the record the 10x markup is from manufacturer cost, through distros and then retail. A shed man is likely to be cost plus hourly x2. For shits and giggles see if you can break down the parts cost and my hourly for building a Paradise at £1800. Sorry Si, I would not have a clue, I'm no diy'er, but I bet Macca is not far off at £5 ph. I bet you do it for the love and satisfaction of it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 17:18:53 GMT
On cmon, that's a ridiculous reason. However, if that is the case, as Tomasz is going to be living in Poland (last I heard), maybe we can expect a reduction in the cost of NVA gear, you know, seeing as the cost of living is lower there? Of course it's not ridiculous, why have companies been re-locating to China, simple cheaper labour, not because they like Chinese food. Regarding a reduction of cost to NVA gear, read Macca's post again, and as I understand it Tomasz will be coming to the uk for a few days every month to work. It will be interesting to see the new price once Savvypaul has gone into it a bit more. You forget the Doc wanted to keep his turnover low to avoid VAT, and he was happy providing good hifi at more than reasonable prices. I know I would have to spend lots more, at new prices, to even get near the sq I have now. Sorry Antonio, Mr Tiernan, Tomaz and yourself are living in DoDo land, and look what happened to them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 17:19:52 GMT
'Tiernan'? Who he?
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Post by macca on Jul 29, 2019 17:22:04 GMT
Didn't he direct 'Die Hard'?
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Post by antonio on Jul 29, 2019 17:24:19 GMT
Of course it's not ridiculous, why have companies been re-locating to China, simple cheaper labour, not because they like Chinese food. Regarding a reduction of cost to NVA gear, read Macca's post again, and as I understand it Tomasz will be coming to the uk for a few days every month to work. It will be interesting to see the new price once Savvypaul has gone into it a bit more. You forget the Doc wanted to keep his turnover low to avoid VAT, and he was happy providing good hifi at more than reasonable prices. I know I would have to spend lots more, at new prices, to even get near the sq I have now. Sorry Antonio, Tiernan, Tomaz and yourself are living in DoDo land, and look what happened to them. Please explain yourself Vlad, I have nothing to do with NVA except owning bits of gear, and yes , who is Tiernan? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 17:28:39 GMT
Didn't he direct 'Die Hard'? 'With a Vengeance'. The only Tiernan I can think of was a teacher at my secondary school in the late '60s. I don't suppose it's him though. |
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Post by macca on Jul 29, 2019 17:39:22 GMT
Was he a music teacher? If he was it might be him. It's a small world.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 29, 2019 18:17:17 GMT
Look fellas, Rega make stuff on the cheap and their factory cost-markup-to-dealer trade price used to be around 400% but I suspect margins are much lower on the Planar 1 and only achievable due to massive volume made per month - their sales manager kind of confirmed this to me. Dealers make little on Rega compared to some other brands, so on original ELAs for instance back in 1990 or so, Roy G told us the factory cost of them was £73 or so, dealer trade price was £280 approx inc VAT and the retail was around £430 from memory. Linn and Naim's margins were rather more than this and a Lingo at £479rrp inc VAT had a base cost of approx. £45 a rep once told me. NVA's margins varied from absolute give-away peanuts on the baby pre-power+cables package, to reasonable (I suspect) on the top stuff which didn't sell in huge numbers, looking at what I know about 'everyone elses' margins. I don't think NVA got preferential prices on the attenuators either, but Tom would be able to answer that one better I expect, as they were made to order and didn't come 'off the shelf.' For the brand to survive and stay around, things will have to change, even if some of us have been used to the low prices they were sold at. With respect to you all, it does seem as if forum people in the UK want cheapo bargains as against what could be suggested as proper prices for low volume audio products. The fact you can buy such good stuff from China for very little (until it goes wrong) has kind of altered our perceptions of realistic prices of UK made audio gear. Naim put their healthy profits into R&D and these days, a several year lifespan isn't realistic on the digital streaming products which are now the core of their business, as parts are discontinued all too quickly. Those Khozmo attenuators do look the business and maybe they have objective and subjective advantages too, but $200 or so for a pair shipped (very approximate prices for two 'mono' 10k shunt types) would become $1000 added once fitted to a proper production preamp unit and costed in - yes, really!!!!! I don't *think* I'm far out on this. That kit preamp with fancy parts Biggie here has made up couldn't be sold for his basic costs and probably not in his plain but functional finish - it would HAVE to be dressed up so say, £500 in parts - plus half as much again for a posh bespoke case? (probably more?) would become £3000 or so PLUS VAT I suspect (I'm guessing figures here Ollie but hope you understand what I'm wanking on about here) and maybe £5k plus VAT if a dealer sold it on.
I had a shock when I properly costed things out recently and making an item to sell is honestly, a hell of a lot more that 'just' the parts cost. The only person I can see making peanuts and happy with it is Glenn Croft. His gear should be double the price it is currently, even with his basic functional cases. if it were a 'foo' brand, Croft would have fancy front panels ('cos you don't always look so closely behind) and a stock M25 preamp would be £2000 and not £750 still, as presented. I believe at least one of you disregarded it because it was seen to be too cheap to be good (and single stereo pot versions are readily available to order and with a proper front panel too!).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 18:26:32 GMT
Do you know who Mr Tiernan is?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 18:27:03 GMT
Was he a music teacher? If he was it might be him. It's a small world. He was, actually. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 18:33:13 GMT
On cmon, that's a ridiculous reason. However, if that is the case, as Tomasz is going to be living in Poland (last I heard), maybe we can expect a reduction in the cost of NVA gear, you know, seeing as the cost of living is lower there? Of course it's not ridiculous, why have companies been re-locating to China, simple cheaper labour, not because they like Chinese food. Regarding a reduction of cost to NVA gear, read Macca's post again, and as I understand it Tomasz will be coming to the uk for a few days every month to work. It will be interesting to see the new price once Savvypaul has gone into it a bit more. **Edited due to mention of banned person(s)**. I know I would have to spend lots more, at new prices, to even get near the sq I have now. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 18:33:52 GMT
Bespoke audio is music first, same guys, same build, different boxes. For the record the 10x markup is from manufacturer cost, through distros and then retail. A shed man is likely to be cost plus hourly x2. For shits and giggles see if you can break down the parts cost and my hourly for building a Paradise at £1800. No chance. Lol |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 29, 2019 19:34:22 GMT
Look fellas, Rega make stuff on the cheap and their factory cost-markup-to-dealer trade price used to be around 400% but I suspect margins are much lower on the Planar 1 and only achievable due to massive volume made per month - their sales manager kind of confirmed this to me. Dealers make little on Rega compared to some other brands, so on original ELAs for instance back in 1990 or so, Roy G told us the factory cost of them was £73 or so, dealer trade price was £280 approx inc VAT and the retail was around £430 from memory. Linn and Naim's margins were rather more than this and a Lingo at £479rrp inc VAT had a base cost of approx. £45 a rep once told me. NVA's margins varied from absolute give-away peanuts on the baby pre-power+cables package, to reasonable (I suspect) on the top stuff which didn't sell in huge numbers, looking at what I know about 'everyone elses' margins. I don't think NVA got preferential prices on the attenuators either, but Tom would be able to answer that one better I expect, as they were made to order and didn't come 'off the shelf.' For the brand to survive and stay around, things will have to change, even if some of us have been used to the low prices they were sold at. With respect to you all, it does seem as if forum people in the UK want cheapo bargains as against what could be suggested as proper prices for low volume audio products. The fact you can buy such good stuff from China for very little (until it goes wrong) has kind of altered our perceptions of realistic prices of UK made audio gear. Naim put their healthy profits into R&D and these days, a several year lifespan isn't realistic on the digital streaming products which are now the core of their business, as parts are discontinued all too quickly. Those Khozmo attenuators do look the business and maybe they have objective and subjective advantages too, but $200 or so for a pair shipped (very approximate prices for two 'mono' 10k shunt types) would become $1000 added once fitted to a proper production preamp unit and costed in - yes, really!!!!! I don't *think* I'm far out on this. That kit preamp with fancy parts Biggie here has made up couldn't be sold for his basic costs and probably not in his plain but functional finish - it would HAVE to be dressed up so say, £500 in parts - plus half as much again for a posh bespoke case? (probably more?) would become £3000 or so PLUS VAT I suspect (I'm guessing figures here Ollie but hope you understand what I'm wanking on about here) and maybe £5k plus VAT if a dealer sold it on. I had a shock when I properly costed things out recently and making an item to sell is honestly, a hell of a lot more that 'just' the parts cost. The only person I can see making peanuts and happy with it is Glenn Croft. His gear should be double the price it is currently, even with his basic functional cases. if it were a 'foo' brand, Croft would have fancy front panels ('cos you don't always look so closely behind) and a stock M25 preamp would be £2000 and not £750 still, as presented. I believe at least one of you disregarded it because it was seen to be too cheap to be good (and single stereo pot versions are readily available to order and with a proper front panel too!).
I love posts like this. When I worked at a dealers I used to scrutinise our trade prices cos I could have anything at trade. What I never got to know was manufacturing cost. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 19:46:30 GMT
Bespoke audio is music first, same guys, same build, different boxes. For the record the 10x markup is from manufacturer cost, through distros and then retail. A shed man is likely to be cost plus hourly x2. For shits and giggles see if you can break down the parts cost and my hourly for building a Paradise at £1800. No its not. Its people who used to work for Jonathan Billington at Music First but left and started making something similar in much more expensive boxes. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 20:03:28 GMT
Those Khozmo attenuators do look the business and maybe they have objective and subjective advantages too, but $200 or so for a pair shipped (very approximate prices for two 'mono' 10k shunt types) would become $1000 added once fitted to a proper production preamp unit and costed in - yes, really!!!!! I don't *think* I'm far out on this. That kit preamp with fancy parts Biggie here has made up couldn't be sold for his basic costs and probably not in his plain but functional finish - it would HAVE to be dressed up so say, £500 in parts - plus half as much again for a posh bespoke case? (probably more?) would become £3000 or so PLUS VAT I suspect (I'm guessing figures here Ollie but hope you understand what I'm wanking on about here) and maybe £5k plus VAT if a dealer sold it on. You're not far off. Parts were about £500 and yes, a more flamboyant chassis would be extra. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 20:07:02 GMT
Never mind all that, who is Mr Tiernan, and why is he living in DoDo Land (actually it should be Dodo Land)?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 20:19:19 GMT
Of course it's not ridiculous, why have companies been re-locating to China, simple cheaper labour, not because they like Chinese food. Regarding a reduction of cost to NVA gear, read Macca's post again, and as I understand it Tomasz will be coming to the uk for a few days every month to work. It will be interesting to see the new price once Savvypaul has gone into it a bit more. **Edited due to mention of banned person(s)**. I know I would have to spend lots more, at new prices, to even get near the sq I have now. The banned person is dead, FFS! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 20:21:59 GMT
The banned person is dead, FFS! So? The owner of this site has banned talk of a certain individual and thus it will be upheld, until such time as the owner decides otherwise. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 20:25:19 GMT
How very silly. Anyway, who is Mr Tiernan?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 29, 2019 20:38:38 GMT
How very silly. Anyway, who is Mr Tiernan? NVAs new owner, subject to contract |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 20:41:37 GMT
How very silly. Anyway, who is Mr Tiernan? NVAs new owner, subject to contract Thank you. So it's not my old music teacher, who, if he's still alive, must be well into his nineties by now. |
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 29, 2019 20:43:34 GMT
NVAs new owner, subject to contract Thank you. So it's not my old music teacher, who, if he's still alive, must be well into his nineties by now. I was well into the nineties...up for it, mad for it, in fact 😉 |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 20:47:38 GMT
Thank you. So it's not my old music teacher, who, if he's still alive, must be well into his nineties by now. I was well into the nineties...up for it, mad for it, in fact 😉 I was raising two small children in the early nineties. We'd not long moved to Bristol, and some bloke visiting my office asked me which clubs I went to, as he'd heard Bristol had a great club scene. I told him that by the time the children were fed, bathed, and put to bed, all I was capable of doing was sitting still before tottering off to bed ready for the working day to come, and directed him to some younger co-workers. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 29, 2019 20:49:01 GMT
Maybe another way to look at how much we should, be paying for gear is to think of it in proportion to your music collection and the time you spend listening, If you don’t have many records or CDs and you spend an hour listening each weekend, it’s probably a bit weird to spend a fortune on gear. That said, plenty rich folk who fit that description splashing £100k on a Linn system.
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