Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 24, 2019 9:15:00 GMT
I can say hand on heart that any LP12 I sold was done after a good dem (not rigged or 'fixed' as has been hinted by some). Sometimes, a client would bring in an unlikely combination and it 'sounded' great, so I'd encourage him with what he (always a 'he') had and lock the new knowledge and experience gained away to spout off now - cough..... hell, we had the Rock II/Excalibur or RB arm to taste which was half the price as a top fruitbox then and at least as good if you knew what the source tape was like - Max brought some copy masters in for us to hear and I don't think they were doctored in any way  Thing is, a year or two later, he then played the same recordings on a cheap CD player and they sounded very similar indeed, so he knew what he was up against... You can't swim and survive against the tide though and it wasn't until the 90's that things began to get tough as the market shrank away. So much expensive stuff is basically male jewellery I think and if you have the wealth to indulge, who are the likes of me to say otherwise? It's that old conflict between 'sounds good' and 'sounds like the master tape' isn't it? No point selling the deck that sounds closer to the master tape to someone who wants the deck that sounds good. There's definitely two different preferences there and it causes a lot of confusion and arguments it seems. For me either approach is valid depending on the individual's wishes but it seems the sounds good crowd cannot get their head around the people who prefer accuracy and those who prefer accuracy don't understand why people will sacrifice that for what they perceive as a good sound. That's the real reason for the objectivist/subjectivist division IMO. I’m definitely in the “sounds good” camp. I take the view that it’s very hard if not impossible to achieve a sound that recreates real musicians playing in your room, especially when most recordings were laid down track by track in a studio. I tend to see systems like artists impressions of a scene and simply go with the ones I find most pleasing in helping me suspend disbelief. To do this, a system will need to recreate elements of realism but it doesn’t need the entirety. |
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Post by macca on Feb 24, 2019 9:22:20 GMT
I think that is the other misunderstanding - that it should sound like 'real musicians playing' to be accurate. It should just sound like the recording and most recordings do not sound like live performances because they are not. Added to which the very act of recording a live performance degrades it before you even get to playback.
Accuracy - to the recording - can only be determined by measurement, not listening. Again this is another source of confusion.
The problem I have with the sounds good approach is that it can mean colouration and the differences between recordings get lost. Plenty of people don't care about that and that's fine by me, it just isn't what I'm after.
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 24, 2019 9:33:45 GMT
Lemos nailed it, for me, when he said...
"I have a few musician friends they certainly do listen differently than the so called Audiophile, what ever that my imply.
They listen for instance to the timber of the instrument, the playing technique of the artist, the timing (most important), the emotional message the singer or instrumentalist is trying to convey. I have for ever listened to music in this manner, it certainly works for me when the music is more important than most things Audiophiles listen for."
I find the 'accurate' vs 'nice' debate to be a red herring.
The best systems make you want to listen to more of your records, and more often.
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Post by macca on Feb 24, 2019 9:49:01 GMT
'Best' is not the same for everyone though is it? What makes you want to play more records might put me off playing records, and vice-versa.
Personally I don't think there needs to be a conflict between accurate and sounds good. Most recordings sound good if the system is not getting in the way because they were designed to sound good by people who know what they are doing. I think some people chase 'hyper-real' (mostly those who want it to sound 'like a live event') and the result is a system that sounds wonderful with some material and very poor with others. Then the recording quality gets blamed.
I had Croft for a while and after a bit it started bothering me that everything sounded the same. I mean it sounded good and I listened to it a lot but there was no differentiation. Didn't matter if it was a recording from 1972 or 2002 the presentation was exactly the same. In the end I decided that was not what I wanted. Found similar with NVA (although not to the same extent).
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 24, 2019 9:58:10 GMT
'Best' is not the same for everyone though is it? What makes you want to play more records might put me off playing records, and vice-versa. Personally I don't think there needs to be a conflict between accurate and sounds good. Most recordings sound good if the system is not getting in the way because they were designed to sound good by people who know what they are doing. I think some people chase 'hyper-real' (mostly those who want it to sound 'like a live event') and the result is a system that sounds wonderful with some material and very poor with others. Then the recording quality gets blamed. I had Croft for a while and after a bit it started bothering me that everything sounded the same. I mean it sounded good and I listened to it a lot but there was no differentiation. Didn't matter if it was a recording from 1972 or 2002 the presentation was exactly the same. In the end I decided that was not what I wanted. Found similar with NVA (although not to the same extent). Agree, 'best' is subjective. It's a subjective hobby. I found that the flat-earth systems made some records sound brilliant, but many more sound awful. Yep, there's definitely a difference between a system that, for example, captures the natural warmth of voices versus one that applies warmth that isn't there. Every bit of kit has 'some' flavour, if that then gets in the way of the music then it is a problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 11:29:58 GMT
The reason why the nait 1 *may* have sounded 'better' in the bass over a 3020 is because it HASN'T any bass power to speak of, due to response and power output, so it appears 'faster' and 'better defined' due to the impact being diluted - easily measurable and very audible to me anyway. The 3020 was a bit warm toned I admit, but on the vinyl input, there's several db difference in output at 50Hz or so as the Nait engineered in an inverted U shaped MM playback response. A good working 3020 is a bit of a giant killer, but you need ro rise above the harsh CB Naim era and look to rather higher ground to realise just how cheekily good the 3020 could be... Well, Dave, hate to disagree with you. All I can say - and I can say this without fear of contraception - is that, it wasn't a case of the Nait 1 *may* have sounded 'better' than the 3020 in the bass. It was a clearly a case of the Nait sounding PATENTLY BETTER. With the Coda speakers on the end a Thorens 160/Hadcock 228 Super D Type Export/VMS 20E on the front (which he got off me) in a sparsely furnished room with a concrete floor about 5 X 4 in 1981 when my hearing was sharper than it is now, I can assure you, Dave, that the Nait was a revelation. The first two records played were Dire Straits' first two albums. He then put on Phil Collins' first album. I was not a little gobbsmacked. Hearing PC knocking absolute hell out of his kit was just a revelation. Yes, the Nad 3020 is famed for it's warm bass. But you could have neutralised that warmth and you still wouldn't have had the attack and dynamics the Nait was delivering. The A&R A60 that he later replaced the Nait with had a sound signature closer to the Nad. For me, though, I preferred the life and energy the Nait provided. As I say, I'll have to dig mine out. I don't expect it to sound as good simply because of my room, with it's wood flooring, compared to my mate's which was concrete, which gave the room a more live sound. |
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Post by macca on Feb 24, 2019 11:45:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 12:29:05 GMT
lol, those rugs that look like 1970s bath mats? I like Steve's videos but there's very little info in them and what is there is mostly wrong. These days JBL use waveguides, not horns. People are not prejudiced against horn speakers, they just can't deal with the level of colouration you get. The problem with the sound in his movie theatre was not the lack of horns but the lack of a capable speaker system. Big conventional speakers with high power handling would have done the job just as well. Or an array of lots of small speakers, likewise. Conventional speakers are not as clear on vocals as horns? No, not true. Unless you cherry-pick some bad conventional speakers. And if his comparison is with his 2 small speakers 5 foot apart and listened to from 4 feet away it's no wonder he's blown away by big horns heard from far-field in a big room. This is the problem with the 'just use your ears' crowd. How can people be into audio for 40 or 50 years and not be bothered to educate themselves about how it works? Let's just go round listening to stuff and making daft conclusions about what is happening and put them on You-Tube. What's that all about? To my mind, the problem with the movie theatre instance was the flawed thinking of those that thought a hi-fi set-up would be up to the job. Yes, they could have employed banks of speakers and amps to drive them, but they didn't have the resources to do that. Whatever they are, horns are efficient when it comes to coupling drivers to air. 3 horn speakers and 3 10watt amps managed to do the job previously. I suppose one gets out of SGs vids what one wants. I thought the one on John Bicht, designer of the Mission 774 arm and Versa Dynamics turntables was revealing - and disappointing. Disappointing in how he could treat a buyer of his product in such a fashion. |
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Post by macca on Feb 24, 2019 12:43:25 GMT
The reason they used horns in the old days was because there were no transistors so watts were very expensive. You want to fill a cinema with sound then you had no choice but to use horns. They weren't doing it for the sound quality. SG's mates should have just built a big tractrix horn from plywood - or even thick cardboard, and stuck it in front of their conventional speakers. Job done.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 13:23:32 GMT
Would think that horns & low power valve amps very simply the technology of the day. Locally, a guy & his son used to install PA systems in clubs, pubs, cinemas etc and they used Leak TL25+ amps. It was just what was available at that time. Not saying there wasn't other similar stuff, of course. And, yes, I don't think sound quality, as thought of now, was a real consideration.
Yes. True. Building a horn and mating it with a "normal" speaker would have been a more effective solution. Less than a practical solution for those concerned, I would imagine though. Have read of horns being driven by just a preamp.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 24, 2019 14:36:48 GMT
VMS20E - are you SERIOUS?  ? Seriously, that thing is godawfully thick and clogged sounding and the deck and arm don't matter (so's the VMS30 with or without the CAP210 on the back). The Nait 1 used from the phono input is rolling it off (I have the Choice tests here and was reading it again not ten minutes ago). The NAD was having its warmth further emphased as I seem to remember without looking that the phono stage on some versions had a bump-up below 100hz. The above is just my take obviously, but I have a few 'things' here and can speak from recent experience
According to the Choice test on the Nait mk1 (OK it's a Colloms review), the RIAA is nothing like that measured in the mk2 version and relative to 1kHz being '0', it's 1db down at 50Hz, several db down by 20hz and nearly 1db up at 6kHz - a 2db tilt in the usual audio 'vinyl' range will be clearly audible. The 3020 in earlier issues had a dip in the phono response at 500hz (right in the middle of the midrange) and the 3020B was basically flat but took off at 50Hz by 2 or 3db. it doesn't sound much I grant you, but get used to this and no wonder CD sounds so thin toned, or did back then... the 3120 was basically flat in the phono response, but I remember not liking this tauter sounding NAD sonically so much.
I do appreciate that response errors only tell a tiny part of the story, but the Nait was balanced the way it was deliberately, exaggerating the phono response of the larger 'proper' preamps which held errors very tightly in comparison I remember, still with a slight lift in the lower khz region.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 16:01:21 GMT
VMS20E - are you SERIOUS? ? Seriously, that thing is godawfully thick and clogged sounding and the deck and arm don't matter (so's the VMS30 with or without the CAP210 on the back). The Nait 1 used from the phono input is rolling it off (I have the Choice tests here and was reading it again not ten minutes ago). The NAD was having its warmth further emphased as I seem to remember without looking that the phono stage on some versions had a bump-up below 100hz. The above is just my take obviously, but I have a few 'things' here and can speak from recent experience
According to the Choice test on the Nait mk1 (OK it's a Colloms review), the RIAA is nothing like that measured in the mk2 version and relative to 1kHz being '0', it's 1db down at 50Hz, several db down by 20hz and nearly 1db up at 6kHz - a 2db tilt in the usual audio 'vinyl' range will be clearly audible. The 3020 in earlier issues had a dip in the phono response at 500hz (right in the middle of the midrange) and the 3020B was basically flat but took off at 50Hz by 2 or 3db. it doesn't sound much I grant you, but get used to this and no wonder CD sounds so thin toned, or did back then... the 3120 was basically flat in the phono response, but I remember not liking this tauter sounding NAD sonically so much.
I do appreciate that response errors only tell a tiny part of the story, but the Nait was balanced the way it was deliberately, exaggerating the phono response of the larger 'proper' preamps which held errors very tightly in comparison I remember, still with a slight lift in the lower khz region.
Didn't understand your VMS 20E comment. Back then it was a standard recommendation. God knows how many Ortofon must have sold. Actually. Actually. I tell a lie. The friendship with my "mate" was coming to an end at that time. He was the type of individual that had a habit of using people for his own ends, and discarding them when their use came to an end. Anyway, he put the Thorens/Hadcock/VMS 20E in and got a Rega 3 (RB300) and A&R P77. He did that as he didn't have any practical ability when it came to hi-fi and didn't want to have to depend on me. The point came when the only time I saw him was when he wanted help with his system. The last thing I did for him was to fit the cartridge. The body of the one he had had a bit of a channel imbalance, and he didn't want to use the balance control. The dealer gave him a new cartridge which had the metal body. Where does that leave you then, Dave? It's only hi-fi. You're giving your recollections and I'm giving mine. Over on TAS I didn't share your views on the sound of Fleetwood Mac's Rumours LP. Have to say others didn't either. Oh, the Nad 3020 was the original version. I got it when it was the thing to have. One time searching the 'net found someone having both the original 3020 and a Nait 1. He rebuilt the Nad hoping to transform it. He did - to some extent, but found the Nait to still be in a different class. |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 24, 2019 17:12:56 GMT
That was late 70's when a thicker tone didn't matter to cheap decks - and we sold plenty of assorted Ortofons remember as well as other things. The best VMS to me musically (I have one with a recently purchased (cheap) new Ortofon stylus, is the VMS10E II, which at least keeps the bass under control and adds some sparkle. The VMS10E II doesn't sound as scrappy as the 2M red/Om10/510mk2 although Colloms was a bit 'Meh' about it. During the 80's, the 20E II went from best buy to recommended to worth considering, but you may feel that was the 'best since sliced bread' syndrome kicking in, I don't know. The bass thickness to me is maintained, especially today.
The Rega 3/R200 certainly sounded better than a TD160 with anything back in the 70's, but modern setting up, an RB300 and isolation may change this view. I have here an RP3 'Mule deck' (24V motor) with R200 and it's not really very nice in all honesty, the R200 not fully compatible with the later plinth it seems.
Rumours has some great songs, but I still find it 'muted' in sound, but maybe I like over eq'd cymbalwork, I don't know.
The early 3020 went through substantial internal wiring revision, at least in order to improve reliability, but I don't think the sound changed overmuch. I can't currently post pics, but I assure you the sub 100Hz bass in the 3020 phono stage rises. In direct comparison with the Nait mk1, the 50Hz level is over 2db different and this grows as the bass gets even lower to the 'surface noises and rumble' frequencies, which the Nait will suppress.
It honestly doesn't bloody matter anyway. 3020's which survive are cheap as chips and still disposable. Naits in almost all versions are worth serious money and it doesn't matter a feck what they sound like. I had a mk1 at home in my Isobarik days for a while and I was very amused that firstly it drove the 4 ohm midrange load without overheating and secondly how the volume didn't increase above around nine to nine-thirty on the control, it just compressed and squashed. Naim is all about immediacy and vocal-frequency projection and although modern models have widened the spectrum more than a little, they're still very 'immediate' in sonics.
Sadly, I can't sit you guys down and DEMONSTRATE the stuff I come out with, so it's just one set of old experiences against another.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 20:08:08 GMT
As you say the VMS 20E was a "Best Buy" for a period of time. So I presume someone must have been buying it. And no I didn't think it was the best thing since sliced bread. It came with the deck and arm and was "good enough".
Rega 3 v Thorens? You and your mate Dave say the Rega is best. I remember him giving his view in 'Answers. That might be the case, but I've never had any fancy for a Rega. I have had a couple of Thorens with Hadcock arms though; I really like the Hadcock arm. Just don't see it as a £750 arm though, or whatever it is now. I think I have about 30 decks - waiting for attention. The only solid body I have are a couple of Roksan Radius 1s. The most interesting is a Stanton which has a magnetic bearing. Last year I got a Pioneer PL 630 at a bargain price, complete with a top Audio Technica AT 12SA, which was intended for 4 channel playback. I'd like a stylus but they cost about £200. To me, that's still a lot of money for a cartridge spend. Has the same spec as the 590 Jamie And His Magic Torch had. And I've a Technics SP 15 coming from the US. Never had any fancy for the SP 10. And I have bits to make a bastard LP12. One thing about the Rega: fancy the idea of converting one for rim drive - just out of curiosity.
Rumors doesn't sound compressed enough to stifle the desire to listen to it, so that's good enough for me.
Here's something for you. The original Nad 3020. Did you know there was a design error in the PCB that introduced crosstalk that's said to account for some of the "qualities" attributed to it. At least that's what I read on the 'net. So it must be true.
Oh, and I'm not interested in modern gear. The last new item I bought was a Technics 605 cassette deck in the late 80s. The only thing that does interest me is the Line Magnetic 508 amplifier.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 20:49:04 GMT
Then buy it. ⏳
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 21:26:36 GMT
As you say the VMS 20E was a "Best Buy" for a period of time. So I presume someone must have been buying it. And no I didn't think it was the best thing since sliced bread. It came with the deck and arm and was "good enough". Rega 3 v Thorens? You and your mate Dave say the Rega is best. I remember him giving his view in 'Answers. That might be the case, but I've never had any fancy for a Rega. I have had a couple of Thorens with Hadcock arms though; I really like the Hadcock arm. Just don't see it as a £750 arm though, or whatever it is now. I think I have about 30 decks - waiting for attention. The only solid body I have are a couple of Roksan Radius 1s. The most interesting is a Stanton which has a magnetic bearing. Last year I got a Pioneer PL 630 at a bargain price, complete with a top Audio Technica AT 12SA, which was intended for 4 channel playback. I'd like a stylus but they cost about £200. To me, that's still a lot of money for a cartridge spend. Has the same spec as the 590 Jamie And His Magic Torch had. And I've a Technics SP 15 coming from the US. Never had any fancy for the SP 10. And I have bits to make a bastard LP12. One thing about the Rega: fancy the idea of converting one for rim drive - just out of curiosity. Rumors doesn't sound compressed enough to stifle the desire to listen to it, so that's good enough for me. Here's something for you. The original Nad 3020. Did you know there was a design error in the PCB that introduced crosstalk that's said to account for some of the "qualities" attributed to it. At least that's what I read on the 'net. So it must be true. Oh, and I'm not interested in modern gear. The last new item I bought was a Technics 605 cassette deck in the late 80s. The only thing that does interest me is the Line Magnetic 508 amplifier. I'd have a good TD150 Mk.I over any Rega I've heard. |
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Post by macca on Feb 24, 2019 21:38:09 GMT
It's a bit like choosing whether to be stabbed in the heart or shot in the face but I'd also go for the Thorens.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 25, 2019 11:33:23 GMT
20 minutes ago, I had a couple of visitors arrive quite a bit earlier than expected,  What are they like? Well if you let any pair of strangers across your threshold, it usually takes a while to suss them out. Same here but I am getting a good feel for them. I like their presence in the room and that’s about as much as I can say right now, |
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Post by macca on Feb 25, 2019 11:39:53 GMT
What are these then?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2019 11:42:07 GMT
Whatever they are, he's getting a good feel from them, and you can't complain about that. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 25, 2019 11:43:09 GMT
Spica TC60. They were made when Spica were revived in 1994. Not sure how many (any) made it to the UK. I got these from Italy. Never seen another pair for sale outside the USA. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2019 11:49:28 GMT
Put you in a spot Westies.......if you could keep only one, which would it be?
The Spicas or DeCappos.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 25, 2019 11:54:37 GMT
I need to figure out this room because I haven’t been able to get my TC50s working properly yet, The Ref3as I’ve only just begun to suss. TC60s on first impression seem to suit the room.
On clarity and detail though, no box speaker I have heard would touch the De Capos. But then there’s the part of me which lives semi Omnis and omnis. The De Capos are more like a conventional speaker although they do slope a bit, Might try tilting them a bit.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 27, 2019 14:05:10 GMT
I’ve done more listening over the last few days than I have in years. Too many speakers and a new room that behaves erratically and is hard to get consistent results with. I’m forming conclusions but won’t say too much just yet. I want to play lots of recordings to be sure, One thing I can say with confidence thigh, is that the speaker cable I keep singing the praises of is consistently better than anything else with all speakers and amps. This is a rarity for me because past experience has been that my favourite in one location with some kit is usually toppled when the goal posts are moved. Not so with this one. Yet again it’s miles better than the competition. My last comparison was with the CS122 cable I have. It was like having a ball of wax added to each ear. The presence and space were lost and the whole thing just lost the plot. Having heard it again today, I will be moving both sets on. Pointless keeping them after what I heard today. Got 2x2 metre lengths and 2x7 metre lengths if anyone fancies dulling their system down  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 14:15:11 GMT
I've used the CS122 cable. It didn't sound right in my system.
What I use now looks like strimmer cable, but sounds sublime. Transparent Audio 'Musicord'. It's no longer available and was a cheaper option in the Transparent range. Bloody excellent though, got two sets, one 2.5m and a longer 4.0m set.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 27, 2019 14:30:15 GMT
I’ll have to look that one up when I can see better. I’ve got some severe eye probs right now making it painful to use them, doctors are proving useless. Might mean I’m not posting as much or as long, as I cat real,y see if I’m making typos or read oompah posts.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 27, 2019 14:33:55 GMT
Feck. Longer posts not oompah. Too funny to edit
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 14:35:39 GMT
I’ll have to look that one up when I can see better. I’ve got some severe eye probs right now making it painful to use them, doctors are proving useless. Might mean I’m not posting as much or as long, as I cat real,y see if I’m making typos or read oompah posts. Hope your eyes are OK soon. |
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Post by macca on Feb 27, 2019 14:39:41 GMT
Feck. Longer posts not oompah. Too funny to edit No, oompah worked for me |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 27, 2019 22:10:15 GMT
My iPad has a mind of its own.
And it doesn’t help when I can’t see. It often changes is to isn’t and comes up with mad changes like altering and to anencephaly. I’m sure it just does if for a laugh.
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Thing is, a year or two later, he then played the same recordings on a cheap CD player and they sounded very similar indeed, so he knew what he was up against... You can't swim and survive against the tide though and it wasn't until the 90's that things began to get tough as the market shrank away. So much expensive stuff is basically male jewellery I think and if you have the wealth to indulge, who are the likes of me to say otherwise?
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