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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2019 10:18:13 GMT
This has been bugging me for some time. Let me start I read so much twaddle on audio forums, blanket statements about amplification. Almost like gospel. I love to play every piece of kit i can possibly get my hands on (beg borrow) I try out on my various speakers. I have three pairs of speakers which by the majority of consensuses perform way above their price range. Klipsch KG4, think Heresy but with bass, or midget Fortes, 94db, not fussy with placement and generally well regarded, Guys seem to hang on to them, enough said. In our room the Klipsch kg4 sounded very much the way its frequency-response measurements would suggest: smooth and clean with a slight but definite emphasis (warmth, rather than heaviness) in the upper bass. The sound was fully integrated, giving no clue to the number or types of drivers. In fact, it was not until after we pried off the grille that we realized it had a horn tweeter. So much for the so-called "horn sound"! The high sensitivity of this speaker was unmistakable in A/B comparisons with other speakers. Few speakers intended for home use can match the combination of high sensitivity and excellent overall frequency response of the kg4. In itself, this says nothing about the sonic properties of the speaker, but since its high sensitivity, compared with typical box speakers in its price and size class, has the effect of quadrupling the available amplifier power, this factor cannot be ignored. Moreover, the measured bass distortion of the kg4 is exceptionally low, which is hardly to be disregarded, even though whether a modern loudspeaker has a low level or a moderate level of bass distortion is usually not immediately apparent to the ear. No two speakers sound alike, and the Klipsch kg4 did not sound exactly like our regular reference speakers or any others to which we compared them. However, it was plain from the start that the kg4 is a truly excellent speaker that we could live with and enjoy without going through a "sonic familiarization" process. It is also among the more attractive box-type speakers we have seen and therefore offers an unusual combination of desirable aesthetic and electroacoustical qualities at an equally attractive price. Vandersteen 2CE Signatures. Their reputation alone speaks for them them. 87db stable impedance curve, first order cross over, an easy drive. Although Richard Vandersteen has gone on to design far more sophisticated, expensive, and ultimately “better”-sounding loudspeakers, the original Model 2 remains the inspiration and essential research project for all that’s followed over the past four-plus decades.Upon release in 1977 the Model 2 sold for $890 the pair and featured several innovative design elements that are fundamental to every subsequent speaker that Richard Vandersteen designed. First and most obviously was Vandersteen’s discovery that by minimizing the size and curving the edges of the baffle, he was able to virtually eliminate cabinet edge and grille diffraction issues to obtain a far more accurate sound from his drivers than he could when they were mounted in a conventional enclosure (this technology reached its summit with Vandersteen’s trademarked Stealth Enclosure). And as an early audio industry adapter of the Gen-Rad 2512 FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) Computer Analyzer initially developed for the aerospace industry, Vandersteen was able to time-align his drivers accurately, which went hand-in-glove with another Vandersteen hallmark, the use of first-order crossovers to preserve the phase integrity of incoming signals. Though naturally it’s evolved through eight generations, the Model 2 has always employed a quartet of drivers: A 10” active acoustic coupler acts as a subwoofer from 26Hz–35Hz; an 8” woofer handles duties from 35Hz–600Hz; a 4.5” midrange driver covers a very wide range of frequencies from 600Hz–5kHz (meaning there is no crossover point throughout this most critical of regions, which has always made the 2 an unusually coherent loudspeaker); and a 1” dome tweeter spans the 5kHz–30kHz range.
Except for the woofer enclosure, there is essentially no cabinetry to the Model 2, whose “enclosure” consists of rectangular top and bottom endcaps joined by long “poles” at each corner. Because the speaker’s profile is a somewhat bulky, fabric-wrapped rectangle, the Model 2 has never been the handsomest boy in class, but the speaker’s exceptional performance and remarkable value have nevertheless managed to win over plenty of hearts. In fact, the Model 2 is the best-selling audiophile loudspeaker of the modern era, with more than 100,000 pairs sold—all of them made in the U.S. That the Model 2 is still enjoying robust sales more than 40 years after its introduction is a testament to the speaker’s fundamental rightness of design and sound quality. The Model 2 is one of the defining classics of American high-end audio.
Last but not least Cornscala D 100db regarded by all as better than the Cornwall enough said, a speaker which I compared to Sonus Faber Amati Homage in a long term listening test. The Sonus is a terrific speaker and it certainly impresses, and to be quite honest does do things in the audiophile sense that the Cornscala does not but we are comparing apple's to oranges cost wise by far, it bloody well better be good.
Here is the rub the Sonus became rather irritating after an hour or two whereas the Cornscala was hard to pull away from even after 4+ hours. This was not a singular experience even the owner of the Amati's concurred
Right that is over Amplification.
Was and am still looking for that SET magic people rave about. Have tried various SET amps on the Corns and the KG. 4's all with disappointing results guess the right one has not come my way anyway cant afford one. In both cases my push pull EL 34/6CA7 out shone them they were just two slow not my cuppa. Must get my hands on a 518a
Hard to stay on point so will sum up briefly on the origional point.
Vandersteen - simply loves my Line Magenitic in 12w triode they sound magic, and loose out in no way to any other more powerful amps valve or solid state. Here is a speaker that everybody says needs power to wake it up. Not in my experience they need good amplification not power feed them with some mediocre amplification like Rothell or some AVR/multi channel abortion and they are disappointing. Even sounded like crap on a 250wpc 2 channel Anthem, same went for a Proceed AP2. (never took to the Levinson house sound TBH)
KG 4 not fussy seems to get along with most positively sings on a fast valve amp still sounded lazy on SET. Have a well regarded Kenwood KA 7100 vintage amp 60wpc. Had that playing with the KG 4's for a while only realised how inadequate this amp is when I hooked up the Line Magnetic and had one of those rare wow moments.
Right both the KG 4's and the Vandersteens like 12w triode not that they dislike either 32w push pull or the 80w push pull monoblocks. In fact between the two in ultra linear there is nothing to choose, cant tell the difference. Hence my conclusion the Vandersteens do not need power. The pre power combo cost new, not that I paid anywhere near that some, $6,000 where as the Line Magnetic new was $800
Cornscalas. do not take to the SET amps I have so far tried, nyada no way, despite their sensitivity. no balls lazy recessed ugg. Do not like line Magnetic 12w triode to wolly, love the Line magnetic 32w ultra linear. And sound even better on the Monoblocks.
Why there is no gospel, here are three speakers two H/E, and one with a so called love of power, that all give me results that run contrary to popular belief.
Sort of going over to the camp, now this is audiophile heresy, in using some H/E speakers with higher powered amps. Have a few fellow believers in this and there are some rumblings on the forums about this. Not talking silly power, popular belief says 8-10w - no 30-100 w in my book wake them up make the things boogie.
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Post by macca on Jun 9, 2019 10:32:59 GMT
Power in watts is so meaningless I'm surprised anyone still goes on about it. Double the power for 3db more spl? 'Fifty watts is not enough for those speakers you need at least a hundred.' For what? Except the odd speaker with efficiency down in the low 80s it's irrelevant. What's more important - I reckon - is the quality of the amp and its ability to deliver short bursts of current without crapping out. I rarely use even 1 watt of power, even on peaks, with 90db efficient speakers. And most speakers these days are around that level of efficiency. If they are also a very easy load in terms of impedance swings then no amp is going to be bothered by them in that respect. Also good speakers will show up what the amp is doing wrong. Poor speakers will flatter a poor amp. Lots of things an amp can do wrong, none of them are related to its power output in watts. In theory you could improve the sound of a system that has a poor amplifier by downgrading the speakers to something less 'revealing'. Then it would be called 'synergy'. In short most amplifiers are tat but it's okay because most speakers are tat as well
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2019 19:05:39 GMT
Interesting that all three speakers break convention in one way or another. For me the conventional 2 way reflex is usually a dud. 2 way sealed box is rarely any better.
Power is an interesting thing because it’s rarely mattered to me. Even with insensitive speakers. Quality is way more important than quantity.
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Post by macca on Jun 10, 2019 17:35:18 GMT
Also good speakers will show up what the amp is doing wrong. Poor speakers will flatter a poor amp. Lots of things an amp can do wrong, none of them are related to its power output in watts. In theory you could improve the sound of a system that has a poor amplifier by downgrading the speakers to something less 'revealing'. Then it would be called 'synergy'. Here's a classic example, Focal with Naim - o/p wonders why it is unlistenable, 'It's the speakers, mate.' www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/better-amps-to-power-focal-sopra-2.227332/page-2Last poster seems to know his stuff though, tells him dump the Naim and get Accuphase.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2019 18:06:52 GMT
I like pjdownes post.
S.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2019 5:22:09 GMT
That pfm thread is the usual "throw money at the problem" stuff that you read in their audio forum.
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Post by macca on Jun 11, 2019 6:41:40 GMT
Sometimes that is the only solution, depends on how much money and where to throw it though. The good thing about Naim is you can flog easily and for loads of cash. Whereas he'll take a massive hit flogging the speakers because accepted wisdom is that they are 'harsh'.
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Post by antonio on Jun 11, 2019 9:07:37 GMT
Not as harsh as those Kudos thingy's, which also seem popular with Naim users.
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Post by macca on Jun 11, 2019 11:23:39 GMT
Why would any speaker sound harsh?
If a driver is being used into break up mode that could lead to a harsh sound, but that won't happen on any competent design. Otherwise there is nothing I can think of that is intrinsic to a loudspeaker that would cause it to sound 'harsh'
Amplifiers on the other hand have distortion characteristics that can make the sound harsh. But people always seem to think the speaker is to blame. Especially Naim users.
Based on my theory I'd expect Naim to sound at their best with a BBC type speaker - midrange dip, heavy plastic/bextrene cones, complex x-over - and worst with a light cone simple crossover speaker with a midrange hump, like Lowther or similar single driver job as that will show up the problems the most.
I don't know if anyone with experience can confirm or deny?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2019 11:39:32 GMT
Why would any speaker sound harsh? If a driver is being used into break up mode that could lead to a harsh sound, but that won't happen on any competent design. Otherwise there is nothing I can think of that is intrinsic to a loudspeaker that would cause it to sound 'harsh' Amplifiers on the other hand have distortion characteristics that can make the sound harsh. But people always seem to think the speaker is to blame. Especially Naim users. Based on my theory I'd expect Naim to sound at their best with a BBC type speaker - midrange dip, heavy plastic/bextrene cones, complex x-over - and worst with a light cone simple crossover speaker with a midrange hump, like Lowther or similar single driver job as that will show up the problems the most. I don't know if anyone with experience can confirm or deny? I can't remember the name of those £40k speakers but the sound coming out of them was hard on the ear but as you say, it was the amplifier which caused it. I'd love to try them with the Krell.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 11, 2019 11:46:19 GMT
It's not harshness*, just a severely lifted upper hf level - 5db and more right where you don't really want it. At best, it adds a kind of 'sizzle' or 'ting' to the highs, but at worst, it magnifies any distortion that's there, especially if vinyl is a main source. Older Kudos were awful for this and Linn Kabers in active form had this down to a fine art - seriously nasty these could be, even with three Klouts driving them. The HF1300 tweets in my Spendors have a peak at 13kHz, after which they die, and in this case it's a kind of slight 'tinsel' effect. PMC's currently suck out the crossover region and then peak up the top above - most 'domestic' models do this, so it must be designed in I think.
As for Focals, I don't know th eolder floor-standers you have macca, but the stand mounted ones when Naim driven (early noughties era) could take fillings out - sorry. The current two Kanta models which I believe replaced your era, sound totally inoffensive to me and the Kanta 2(?) was really nice when I heard it last November, Naim streamer driven I think.
*To me anyway, harshness is more distortion harmonics 'well under' 10khz and possibly more 2 - 5kHz perhaps, where you can wince if it's overdone -
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Post by alit on Jun 11, 2019 11:52:45 GMT
I think a few manufacturers do it so they sound impressive on a short dem.
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Post by macca on Jun 11, 2019 12:03:55 GMT
I don't buy the idea that it is due to lifted HF. Turn the treble tone control up to max on an otherwise okay system and it won't sound harsher, it will just sound toppy. A small lift above 15Khz won't even be audible. And most of the speakers people accuse of being 'bright' don't have that lift at all anyway, including Focals.
I agree it is in the 2-5Khz range and is due to either harmonic distortion in the amp, or more likely, intermodulation distortion as it isn't so obvious with a simple mix.
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Post by antonio on Jun 11, 2019 12:43:54 GMT
Why would any speaker sound harsh? If a driver is being used into break up mode that could lead to a harsh sound, but that won't happen on any competent design. Otherwise there is nothing I can think of that is intrinsic to a loudspeaker that would cause it to sound 'harsh' Amplifiers on the other hand have distortion characteristics that can make the sound harsh. But people always seem to think the speaker is to blame. Especially Naim users. Based on my theory I'd expect Naim to sound at their best with a BBC type speaker - midrange dip, heavy plastic/bextrene cones, complex x-over - and worst with a light cone simple crossover speaker with a midrange hump, like Lowther or similar single driver job as that will show up the problems the most. I don't know if anyone with experience can confirm or deny? I only used the word harsh, since you had in the previous post.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 11, 2019 13:03:56 GMT
I don't buy the idea that it is due to lifted HF. Turn the treble tone control up to max on an otherwise okay system and it won't sound harsher, it will just sound toppy. A small lift above 15Khz won't even be audible. And most of the speakers people accuse of being 'bright' don't have that lift at all anyway, including Focals. I agree it is in the 2-5Khz range and is due to either harmonic distortion in the amp, or more likely, intermodulation distortion as it isn't so obvious with a simple mix. The Focals I used to hear were toppy in the extreme (could be Electra model?) - and boomy if the port bungs were taken out. Like I said, I never heard the older floor standing models apart from Grand utopia's decades ago (I'm sure they've changed a lot since then) which made the musicians sound like they were playing in the next street for some reason.
I did hear a low-cost range that Focal made in the mid noughties. The cheap small model (£350 or so per pair) was really nice as I remember - was it a baby Chorus model?.
Nobody ever criticised the driver quality - that cone material was quite advanced I remember and I've heard the inverted dome in enough speakers to believe it's a goodie and the slave of the speaker designer...
I suppose the audiophile way of dealing with a rising hf is to not toe them in, so one is listening not quite on axis. Maybe some of these speakers are designed to be used that way. Interestingly, we Isobarik owners were 'told' to fire these straight ahead, yet when I had mine in a near-field situation (Not recommended), they didn't seem to 'beam' at all.. They usually 'looked' best to me toed in slightly...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 11, 2019 13:18:03 GMT
I don't buy the idea that it is due to lifted HF. Turn the treble tone control up to max on an otherwise okay system and it won't sound harsher, it will just sound toppy. A small lift above 15Khz won't even be audible. And most of the speakers people accuse of being 'bright' don't have that lift at all anyway, including Focals. I agree it is in the 2-5Khz range and is due to either harmonic distortion in the amp, or more likely, intermodulation distortion as it isn't so obvious with a simple mix. The Focals I used to hear were toppy in the extreme (could be Electra model?) - and boomy if the port bungs were taken out. Like I said, I never heard the older floor standing models apart from Grand utopia's decades ago (I'm sure they've changed a lot since then) which made the musicians sound like they were playing in the next street for some reason.
I did hear a low-cost range that Focal made in the mid noughties. The cheap small model (£350 or so per pair) was really nice as I remember - was it a baby Chorus model?. Nobody ever criticised the driver quality - that cone material was quite advanced I remember and I've heard the inverted dome in enough speakers to believe it's a goodie and the slave of the speaker designer... I suppose the audiophile way of dealing with a rising hf is to not toe them in, so one is listening not quite on axis. Maybe some of these speakers are designed to be used that way. Interestingly, we Isobarik owners were 'told' to fire these straight ahead, yet when I had mine in a near-field situation (Not recommended), they didn't seem to 'beam' at all.. They usually 'looked' best to me toed in slightly...
I never thought to try my Isobariks toed in. I wish I had now. Not the easiest things to move around though
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Post by macca on Jun 11, 2019 15:49:32 GMT
I don't buy the idea that it is due to lifted HF. Turn the treble tone control up to max on an otherwise okay system and it won't sound harsher, it will just sound toppy. A small lift above 15Khz won't even be audible. And most of the speakers people accuse of being 'bright' don't have that lift at all anyway, including Focals. I agree it is in the 2-5Khz range and is due to either harmonic distortion in the amp, or more likely, intermodulation distortion as it isn't so obvious with a simple mix. The Focals I used to hear were toppy in the extreme (could be Electra model?) - and boomy if the port bungs were taken out. Like I said, I never heard the older floor standing models apart from Grand utopia's decades ago (I'm sure they've changed a lot since then) which made the musicians sound like they were playing in the next street for some reason.
I did hear a low-cost range that Focal made in the mid noughties. The cheap small model (£350 or so per pair) was really nice as I remember - was it a baby Chorus model?.
Nobody ever criticised the driver quality - that cone material was quite advanced I remember and I've heard the inverted dome in enough speakers to believe it's a goodie and the slave of the speaker designer...
I suppose the audiophile way of dealing with a rising hf is to not toe them in, so one is listening not quite on axis. Maybe some of these speakers are designed to be used that way. Interestingly, we Isobarik owners were 'told' to fire these straight ahead, yet when I had mine in a near-field situation (Not recommended), they didn't seem to 'beam' at all.. They usually 'looked' best to me toed in slightly...
Mine are from the Electra range. They are not bright or toppy. Anechoic measurements and in room measurements show no treble peak at all. I checked all the specs and measurements before I bought them. I figured they would be a competent, modern-sounding speaker. To my surprise they turned out to be much better than that.
Once you live with them a while you realise how clear they are in the midrange. Exceptional by the standards of most speakers, and I'm thinking Harbs, Spendors and yes, even Tannoys here.
That's where your brightness/harshness/whatever shows up. Not because the speaker is bright or harsh but because the speaker is too good for the amplification. I don't use hardly any toe in but then I never use it with any speaker as I don't like the effect it has on the imaging.
I don't know where this confusion of harsh with toppy came about? Was it forums or was it before that in the magazines? I just find the idea that a harsh sound can be cured by toeing in the speakers or turning down the treble to be ridiculous but it still gets repeated parrot-fashion all over the place and is rarely challenged.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 11, 2019 16:09:44 GMT
I can think of a few harsh speakers and amps have nothing to do with it macca. It's often around the crossover point where some ill-judged choices were made at the design stage as regards driver matching, dispersion patterns and crossover choices. Some Dyn-Audios are just like that to me and I assure you, no amp will fix it - in my opinion and experience. It's my view that conversely, many UK-esque speakers suck-out at the tweeter crossover, to make them sound 'nicer' for more of the time (Yes Harbeth, I'm looking at you!!! ). I think you'll find modern Spendors post Derek Hughes are quite a bit 'livelier' now but obviously well mannered with it. All speakers are the slave of the other stuff driving them, but some really do seem to go over the top in magnifying this. Even ATC's weren't *that* bad
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Post by macca on Jun 11, 2019 17:19:10 GMT
I did say any competent speaker...I'm aware that there are some out there which are not. I've owned a few! But mostly they are bottom of the barrel budget speakers or designs from some cottage outfit tuned by ear. Nothing Focal have ever made falls into those categories.
Slumming it with this XTZ really confirms my point. It's not a bad amp but it does things wrong occasionally and it jars. I could swap the speakers for something less revealing but that's a lot of hassle and hopefully the Krell will be back soon.
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