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Post by macca on Mar 14, 2019 18:46:51 GMT
You've enough kit there to do a bit of experimentation I'd have thought?
Lat time I went down Ollies' I took him a Sony CD player I had lying about, nothing that fancy. He had no digital source at the time but he did have a few CDs. Anyway he'll tell you himself but he stuck a bit of Creedence on and he was a bit shocked that it sounded good. Of course last time he had digital he did not have the amplification he has now to play it through.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 14, 2019 18:52:04 GMT
You've enough kit there to do a bit of experimentation I'd have thought? Lat time I went down Ollies' I took him a Sony CD player I had lying about, nothing that fancy. He had no digital source at the time but he did have a few CDs. Anyway he'll tell you himself but he stuck a bit of Creedence on and he was a bit shocked that it sounded good. Of course last time he had digital he did not have the amplification he has now to play it through. Just laziness in even attempting to set up vinyl. I seem to feel I need vinyl in my life, but then I can never be arsed to set it up. The extra box and wires that a phono stage brings are also an added hassle I also can’t be bothered with. Maybe I’ve just gotten too lazy or my CD sound is just too good for me to care about vinyl. |
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Post by macca on Mar 14, 2019 19:02:13 GMT
I'd guess your cd sound is good enough.  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 14, 2019 19:18:03 GMT
I really like this player but i haven’t compared it to anything, Tye DAC easily saw off the Digit Refeence but ants about as much compatrinag as I’ve tried. As you say, I guess it must be good enough and the lack of desire to run vinyl should be a clue
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Post by dsjr on Mar 14, 2019 19:23:38 GMT
My take and mine only - IF Vinyl sounds different from a modern digital source and the source material hasn't been messed with by the mastering engineer, then the vinyl to me is automatically worse, whatever the preference may be! The losses involved in the cutting, pressing and playback of the music in the grooves is huge and never to be underestimated ime. When I had a really decent monitor grade system, I was pleasantly surprised how good vinyl can be in its small-scale way. Those vibes continue today, but not with my stuff. There are speakers and yes, I suppose electronics out there, which 'favour' vinyl, but I believe that's bad or inappropriate design. Apologies, I went through all this in the mid 80's both at home and at work and at Jimmy H's gaff, where he was reviewing many decent CD players of the time in a then, very fast moving market - the difference between an early top loading Philips or Marantz player, then a Meridian MCD/Mission DAD7000/B&O CDX to the first player I heard that made the music off CD more intelligible back then - an MCD-Pro, which I bought as my first CD player, was very real to me at least. Two years later, the MCD-Pro had become a Meridian 207 two box (tuneless preamp section but the CD player weren't so bad  ) and Jimmy had the Sony 502ES, 505ES and classic 555ES, as well as the Pioneer PD91 which was a brute in build and fine sounding. Only a very few years, but CD to me, had come a very long way in terms of scale, depth/reverb reproduction and so on. Just my vibes obviously and not sure how many of you were there and into this stuff thirty odd years ago. My 'best' CD player came to me as a demo unit back in 1988-89 (the year the Naim DBL came out, whenever that was) and somehow, it found its way back to me in 1994 and I've had it ever since. |
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Post by macca on Mar 14, 2019 20:15:09 GMT
Cd players - I was up to about 20 at one point. Chasing rainbows mostly. Provided the amplification is good enough they pretty much all sounded pleasant if different. Only a few have had that extra something that is probably not worth paying thousands for but of course we don't have to any more.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 14, 2019 21:20:18 GMT
Cd players - I was up to about 20 at one point. Chasing rainbows mostly. Provided the amplification is good enough they pretty much all sounded pleasant if different. Only a few have had that extra something that is probably not worth paying thousands for but of course we don't have to any more.
The one thing I missed with the early machines was that easy sense of 'reverb tails' to put it crudely. This caution had disappeared by the better late 80's machines and not everyone is 'sensitive' to it. As you say, we really don't need to bother any more as it only seems to be audiophile-intended 'digital' that gets it wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 1:07:45 GMT
And while we're at it... What about recording engineers who couldn't work with digital for any length of time when it came out? Fleetwood Mac's studio went all digital at the time of Tusk, if I remember right and had to be mixed a second time on account of how it sounded originally. I'll have to dig that out. Tusk was an all-analogue recording, digitally mastered. Most amplifiers are not band limited but that's for another reason (I don't recall what, someone else might know) Legato Link was just a marketing gimmick like HDCD, Bitstream, MASH etc the purpose was to get you to buy a new CD player. Quad 4 had the difference channels at 30 Khz not 50 khz, and that's not the same thing as replaying a 30Khz recording. The recordings on QUAD 4 did not have that bandwidth as it was impossible to record 30 KHz signals at the time. There's still no getting away from the fact that if the mics and the tape decks could not record it, it can't be reproduced regardless of the playback technology. As regards low bass improving treble, that's an entirely subjective observation. No doubt having low bass will reproduce ambiance of the recording venue and I'm all for that but it's no argument for recording or reproducing high frequencies we cannot perceive. Tusk. For some reason I've had it in my head that the recordings were done elsewhere and then mixed at the new studio. Obviously that wasn't so reading about. In the feature read in 'Answers years ago, I thought it mentioned that the studio was all digital. Seems that too wasn't the case. As for how it was recorded and mixed, it's hard to come up with a definite answer. Analogue recording and digitally mixed. Analogue recording with drums digitally recorded and digitally mixed. Lindsey B's recordings analogue and the rest digital and digitally mixed. Analogue recording with analogue & digital mixes done in tandem. All digital. Even Lindsey B quotes the recordings as digital. I gave up looking at that point. So, take your pick. Quad. There were two systems, of course: discrete and matrix. JVC came up with CD4 for vinyl (discrete) and CBS behind the QS matrix version. I'd totally, totally forgot about CBS's involvement. CD4 had carrier signals at 30K for the demodulator. When I was looking previously the figure of 50K was what I found. There wasn't any mention of what version that figure referred to. Looking on Wiki, it mentions 76K used as a carrier for the matrix version. There was one or two variants of the matrix system with Sansui's SQ being one. Maybe the 50K figure was used in one of these. At the time I built a surround sound decoder which basically sent the difference signal to the rear with a 90 degree phase shift to one channel. Later I built a genuine SQ decoder with a dedicated i.c. which did give better results. It was interesting hearing something other than stereo for a time, but the point came when it just sounded gimmicky, and didn't really add to the listening experience. In the end I just used a basic Hafler configuration with a pot adjustment to add a bit of sum signal. It gave a bit of ambience and pulled the sound away from the front speakers. Some time later I gave up on it when I discovered an unusual speaker set-up that produced pretty tangible imagery. Wouldn't like to say that most amplifiers are wide bandwidth in design. There's an awful lot of amps out there. The question remains though why some designers adopt that way, and others don't. But then, that's the thing with designers. One designer will have his way of doing things using a particular topology and decrying an alternative one. Another designer will have his (different) preferred method and adopt the topology the other designer dismissed. Both will have equally valid, if different sounding, products. HDCD, Jitter, Bitstream and Mash. Just marketing? Don't know. I'd rather listen to a HDCD than a standard one, all things being equal. Haven't heard the effects of a jitter eater for myself. Bitstream. That was basically a cost-cutting exercise. Before Bitstream you had support chips for the main processor. With Bitstream the one chip did away with them. Originally, Bitstream was for models lower down the range and Multibit was kept for the top of the range. I thought Mash was just Technics way of doing things. Never read up on it to be honest. You forgot dither! Just heard on the news about Dick Dale's death. |
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Post by dsjr on Mar 18, 2019 8:25:50 GMT
HDCD discs I heard just added extra reverb as I remember. Most un-mastertape like.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 20:17:26 GMT
Reverb? Reverb? Not something I've heard. I have a small collection including Scott Walker's 1-4, Mike Oldfield's QE2, Five Miles Out, Crises and Discovery, Dave Brubeck's Time Out, The Bee Gees Hits Double and a couple from The Dixie Chicks. The last I got was Roxy Music's Siren about a month ago; the only one I've been a bit disappointed with as it sounds a tad turgid, which I don't remember the album sounding. Might get Avalon. There's Neil Young's 4 disc set, but I'm not a huge fan. I do keep a lookout for them. And The Bee Gees double sounds quite excellent.
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Post by macca on Mar 18, 2019 21:09:39 GMT
All the dozens of cd players I have and have had and I've never had a single one with HDCD compatibility.
I remember hearing my first SACD and being amazed. Rushed out and bought a player and some more discs. I was younger and dafter then though.
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Post by macca on May 19, 2019 9:32:07 GMT
Cd players - I was up to about 20 at one point. Chasing rainbows mostly. Provided the amplification is good enough they pretty much all sounded pleasant if different. Only a few have had that extra something that is probably not worth paying thousands for but of course we don't have to any more. Archiemago's remote blind test results are up and pretty much demonstrate what I said in my post above. archimago.blogspot.com/2019/05/blind-test-results-part-3-do-digital.htmlIt's a bit tl;dr but the summary is: 2. On the whole, despite the expected disparity in sound quality between a computer motherboard, Apple iPhone 6 headphone output, Oppo UDP-205 (with current "flagship" ES9038Pro DAC) XLR output, and a Sony SACD player with RCA out, the results suggest that audible differences from 16/44.1 playback are not easily heard.
3. Despite small differences reported by many, the data did suggest a significant ability for those who heard a difference to identify the computer motherboard as sounding "worst", this is consistent with the objective measurements.
These days, after many generations of products with refinements in low-level linearity, lower noise floor, filter optimizations, and jitter reduction, the logical expectation is that 16/44.1 DACs have matured to the point where one has to assume that it should not be easy to detect differences between devices. The idea of "transparency to the digital source" should result in a "common" kind of sound among many devices (especially those with "high fidelity" aspirations) once we equalized listening levels.
Considering the multitude of DACs and players out there, of course some devices can sound vastly different. However, it's also quite likely that such a different-sounding device is either of very low quality (like this) or a company purposely "colored" the sound to differentiate their product (perhaps like this). Needless to say, do not assume that an expensive "high end" DAC/player is necessarily also of "high fidelity" because it sounds different or is subjectively preferred by some! |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 19, 2019 9:44:39 GMT
Cd players - I was up to about 20 at one point. Chasing rainbows mostly. Provided the amplification is good enough they pretty much all sounded pleasant if different. Only a few have had that extra something that is probably not worth paying thousands for but of course we don't have to any more. Archiemago's remote blind test results are up and pretty much demonstrate what I said in my post above. archimago.blogspot.com/2019/05/blind-test-results-part-3-do-digital.htmlIt's a bit tl;dr but the summary is: 2. On the whole, despite the expected disparity in sound quality between a computer motherboard, Apple iPhone 6 headphone output, Oppo UDP-205 (with current "flagship" ES9038Pro DAC) XLR output, and a Sony SACD player with RCA out, the results suggest that audible differences from 16/44.1 playback are not easily heard.
3. Despite small differences reported by many, the data did suggest a significant ability for those who heard a difference to identify the computer motherboard as sounding "worst", this is consistent with the objective measurements.
These days, after many generations of products with refinements in low-level linearity, lower noise floor, filter optimizations, and jitter reduction, the logical expectation is that 16/44.1 DACs have matured to the point where one has to assume that it should not be easy to detect differences between devices. The idea of "transparency to the digital source" should result in a "common" kind of sound among many devices (especially those with "high fidelity" aspirations) once we equalized listening levels.
Considering the multitude of DACs and players out there, of course some devices can sound vastly different. However, it's also quite likely that such a different-sounding device is either of very low quality (like this) or a company purposely "colored" the sound to differentiate their product (perhaps like this). Needless to say, do not assume that an expensive "high end" DAC/player is necessarily also of "high fidelity" because it sounds different or is subjectively preferred by some!I have an IPhone 6s and the sound from the headphone out with Apple lossless is laughably bad......unless you’re the one being forced to listen. I cannot therefore take the results seriously. iPads are just as crap btw. |
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Post by macca on May 19, 2019 10:15:03 GMT
I've never heard an iPhone playing a lossless file so can't add anything there, but bear in mind this was a blind test. If you don't know that it is a phone being used as the source would you perceive such a big difference? On paper, no. In a blind test, apparently no. But when you know it is 'just a 'phone' you are listening to psychology comes into play.
On paper the motherboard should be the worst performer because of the power supply noise and guess what? It was.
Not a controlled test ofc but still interesting nonetheless in that it demonstrates that when you don't know what you are listening to it is much harder to determine differences.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 19, 2019 10:31:14 GMT
iPhone headphone output to me, is like putting your ear to the tweeter on your speakers. Almost feel like you’re being lacerated with a razor blade.
I have usually found with CD players that the better the PSU, the better the sound, so I’d agree with the idea of the motherboard being worst,
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Post by macca on May 19, 2019 10:37:42 GMT
The only time I have heard a 'phone used in a proper hifi system was at Scalford when someone wanted to hear some crap they had brought along. System was a 5 way fully active horn set up (Speedy Steve). It was an mp3 file so very lossy but although it did sound 'degraded' compared to whatever full fat source he was using it wasn't unpleasant to listen to. Not harsh or hard or bright. And the speaker set up was very revealing, as you'd expect
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 11:43:34 GMT
iPhone headphone output to me, is like putting your ear to the tweeter on your speakers. Almost feel like you’re being lacerated with a razor blade. I have usually found with CD players that the better the PSU, the better the sound, so I’d agree with the idea of the motherboard being worst, Have a listen to this and if you don't get a decent sound with decent dynamics and frequency response that has the nervous energy rippling, either the phone output IS crap, your earphones are a poor match - or just hear things just so very differently. I have a Chinese Oukitel K3 phone and with the last update the sound quality is really quite amazing. I use a pair of Sony MDR NC22 which are really quite an old model. When I see them eBay I buy them if cheap as they work really well with the phone. I've watched/listened to this video loads of times, and it never fails to have me on the edge, waiting for the next component in the mix to come along and make it's contribution. Brilliant stuff. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 19, 2019 14:02:13 GMT
iPhone headphone output to me, is like putting your ear to the tweeter on your speakers. Almost feel like you’re being lacerated with a razor blade. I have usually found with CD players that the better the PSU, the better the sound, so I’d agree with the idea of the motherboard being worst, Have a listen to this and if you don't get a decent sound with decent dynamics and frequency response that has the nervous energy rippling, either the phone output IS crap, your earphones are a poor match - or just hear things just so very differently. I have a Chinese Oukitel K3 phone and with the last update the sound quality is really quite amazing. I use a pair of Sony MDR NC22 which are really quite an old model. When I see them eBay I buy them if cheap as they work really well with the phone. I've watched/listened to this video loads of times, and it never fails to have me on the edge, waiting for the next component in the mix to come along and make it's contribution. Brilliant stuff. There’s lots of “tssss......tssssss......tsssss”. Still has the same problem of massively elevated and spitty treble to the point of making me wince. It’s clearly done to brighten up Sh#t earbuds. The old (pre-classic) iPods used to be better. I updated my iPod and found that out first-hand. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 15:01:27 GMT
No spitty treble with me Oukitel, just a reasonable attempt at portraying the sound of a cymbal. I've watched/listened to it another 4 times since posting it.
I'll avoid any further updates as I don't want to lose the sound quality I have. In the past updates with phones and Archos multimedia devices have resulted in the sound taking a step back.
Love me Oukitel. Nice square design (rather than rounded), 6,000mA battery, not bad screen, and best of all - it sounds GREAT! (and was a reasonable £135).
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Post by macca on May 19, 2019 15:01:36 GMT
Does sound a bit glassy but then so do my laptop speakers.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 15:04:27 GMT
sounds awesome on my samsung soundbar
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 16:34:50 GMT
Glassy? Glassy? I don't post glassy-sounding Sh#t for people to listen to! I always ferret about for the best sound for anything I link to. Get yourself some better (more *accurate*) speakers for your laptop, as was done with your system, and then seeing the light, as it were.
No glassiness here, either, just some pretty clean percussion. Just listen to that tambourine and cymbals... Think it's better than the original:
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 6:55:43 GMT
I have an IPhone 6s and the sound from the headphone out with Apple lossless is laughably bad......unless you’re the one being forced to listen. I cannot therefore take the results seriously. iPads are just as crap btw. That's probably more the headphone amp than the DAC. If you stream from the phone they're very good. (Of course if you buy the latest iPhone you don't even have a headphone jack....) |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2020 10:35:33 GMT
Graham Holliman was a service engineer at KJ Watford and a friend of mine. He passed away a few years ago now and no idea what happened to his gear including his home-made JBL Paragon cabinet. No doubt that amps that cut off below 20hz can sound a bit 'clipped' perhaps, maybe due to other reasons. 'Digital' sounds fine these days if the speakers don't mess up at higher frequencies or the crossover region. Hopefully most of us use it with no issues now? Next point of issue in the chain is the amplification, which mostly is worse than the digital source fed it (class A or AB or D is irrelevant here I believe). Speakers of course are the pits really and distort terribly, but we do the best with what we have. Very sad to hear your friend passed away! I am very intrigued by his work called" The Graham Holliman Subwoofer" as I am completing my masters' dissertation project about his concept of generating infrasonic frequencies with high efficiency. The available information about him and the project are very limited as it was published more than forty years ago. I would like to collect all possible information about Mr. Holliman's career and the project itself. I plan on making my dissertation public afterwards. Would you mind sharing more information about his professional life? Thank you so much!! |
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Post by sq225917 on May 21, 2020 14:27:33 GMT
Worth checking diyaudio.Com a few guys on there have built them.
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) and Jimmy had the Sony 502ES, 505ES and classic 555ES, as well as the Pioneer PD91 which was a brute in build and fine sounding. Only a very few years, but CD to me, had come a very long way in terms of scale, depth/reverb reproduction and so on.