|
|
Post by pauld on May 16, 2018 17:22:42 GMT
About £1500 from what I’ve seen, Shane.
|
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on May 16, 2018 17:40:33 GMT
Interesting isn’t it. I always felt that the CDS2 was a poor relative of the CDS1 and nowhere near as musical or detailed as the CDS3. Don’t get me started on their streamers. The NDX is crap, the NDS is ok at best, and can and is bettered by streamers a tenth of the price. Paul, did you 'feel' this after lengthy listening, or opinions spouted off by twonks like me on forums? I ask this genuinely.
I was able to briefly compare the CD-I with CDS-2 in my Northampton days and I personally thought they were from the same mould, one expanding hugely from the other. the CDS-2 *for me* was a machine able to deliver a humungous soundstage full of musicians playing music if there in the recording and used with better Naim amps (more basic pre-power amps from this maker don't have a soundstage to speak of) or better still, outside of a Naim system, I felt it shone. Used with small 1999 era Sonus Fabers (I forget the exact ones but they had layers of walnut - Signums?) and one particular Copland power amp (with a single 'call lift' style power switch  ) the sound was holographic with this player. We had a Linn CD12 for a week to try and into a wide open system, it was incredible, but into a more normal stereo, it sounded small and shrunken. I heard another into an ATC preamp and SCM70A's and the sound was ghastly - bland, dead and 'flat!'
I said before the Karik/Numerik changed a lot in the mid nineties and each batch sounded subtly different! Depends which samples you hear sadly...
Thing is (Andrew), a CDS2/XPS will be nearly twenty years old now and getting one serviced if needs be?
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on May 16, 2018 18:29:07 GMT
Great. Now I need to buy a CDS-1 and a CDS 2 and compare the beggars for myself! I don't mind the servicing issues/risks. I love the build of them. Still,a lot of digital stuff I want to try. Being overseas has held me back greatly over the last few years so I still have unfinished business. Don't be surprised though if I buy loads, try it amd end up back with the Sonneteers and Spicas.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 20:49:13 GMT
DSJR,
So, the CDS-2/XPS you heard didn't sound painful then?
I briefly had a CDX in 2015. Oh man, that thing was full blown ear rape!!!!
S.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on May 16, 2018 21:58:19 GMT
DSJR, So, the CDS-2/XPS you heard didn't sound painful then? I briefly had a CDX in 2015. Oh man, that thing was full blown ear rape!!!! S. I loved mine, but it was a really demonstrative player. Not exactly pipe and slippers; more pipe-bomb and Jack-boots! |
|
|
|
Post by pauld on May 16, 2018 23:39:02 GMT
Interesting isn’t it. I always felt that the CDS2 was a poor relative of the CDS1 and nowhere near as musical or detailed as the CDS3. Don’t get me started on their streamers. The NDX is crap, the NDS is ok at best, and can and is bettered by streamers a tenth of the price. Paul, did you 'feel' this after lengthy listening, or opinions spouted off by twonks like me on forums? I ask this genuinely.
I was able to briefly compare the CD-I with CDS-2 in my Northampton days and I personally thought they were from the same mould, one expanding hugely from the other. the CDS-2 *for me* was a machine able to deliver a humungous soundstage full of musicians playing music if there in the recording and used with better Naim amps (more basic pre-power amps from this maker don't have a soundstage to speak of) or better still, outside of a Naim system, I felt it shone. Used with small 1999 era Sonus Fabers (I forget the exact ones but they had layers of walnut - Signums?) and one particular Copland power amp (with a single 'call lift' style power switch ) the sound was holographic with this player. We had a Linn CD12 for a week to try and into a wide open system, it was incredible, but into a more normal stereo, it sounded small and shrunken. I heard another into an ATC preamp and SCM70A's and the sound was ghastly - bland, dead and 'flat!'
I said before the Karik/Numerik changed a lot in the mid nineties and each batch sounded subtly different! Depends which samples you hear sadly...
Thing is (Andrew), a CDS2/XPS will be nearly twenty years old now and getting one serviced if needs be?
Experience, I compared the CDS1 and two first and the compared the CDS2 and CDS3. Order of preference would be: CDS3 CDS1 CDS2 I thought the CDS2 sounded harsh and far too Hifi, whereas the CDS3 had all of the detail and more of the CDS2, but was a lot easier to listen to and more in keeping with the CDS1 analogue flavour of sound. |
|
|
|
Post by pauld on May 16, 2018 23:40:14 GMT
I owned a NDX for a while alongside a CDX2 and it was average at best. In fact no that’s being too kind it was utter crap. A real disappointment.
|
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on May 17, 2018 6:57:52 GMT
The few CDS2's we sold were NEVER harsh or flat in the slightest and these were all installed in client's systems, not sold in sealed boxes. Hell, even Colloms liked it in HFN!!!
Analogue flavour from digital is a colouration to me, but I suspect it's not what you mean.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2018 7:16:14 GMT
The lower players in the naim range are cobbled for sure. A simple tweak in the 3.5 brings a huge increase in sq. Naim do bang on about power supplies and the use of large toroids. The thing is the height of the caswork limits the size they can use and the 500va ones as used in the hicaps had to be hammered to make them flatter.....
Its a shame they did not put the good tda1541 dac chip in the 3.5 (they used it in the 3) as the tda1305 is the weak point of the player. Its psu can be improved a lot though. How many separate psu's is it possible to add to this unsuspecting cdp ? Lots is the answer but how many are worthwhile? I am up to 7 power rails currently. Its not worth adding anymore to the digital side but there is scope for another 4 in the anologue output stage. 6 opamps currently share 2 power rails. Splitting them all off would need another 4 - a true nva style upgrade i would think.
|
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on May 20, 2018 13:42:04 GMT
The 1541 had been discontinued by then and it's not the DAC that gives sonic character but the digital filter I'm reliably told by engineers who knew then what they were on about. I believe these two functions are mostly in one chip now, but I could be wrong.
I just have a thing now about how Naim conceived and released their products, from the need for ever more expensive add-on boxes, to yearly price increases whether justified or not. It carries on to this day, only now, their streaming stuff (all that sells I'm told by a few people) is replaced every year or two as technology moves on. Bloody rip-offs - sorry!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2018 14:11:40 GMT
No need to apologise dave, i agree and would never buy another naim product.
The 3.5 uses a 7 pole bessel filter for the ouput stage. 6 opa604 opamps which i changed for opa627 years back. With simplicity being the key i have often wondered if the output stage could be simplified, just dont know how to go about it yet.
|
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on May 20, 2018 15:48:05 GMT
Jumping in where angels fear to tread, I wonder why so many op-amps are needed! Jut ONE OPA134 a channel is needed really (or the ubiquitous 5534 single channel one). My take from an amateur viewpoint is that the later so-called- high speed op-amps actually go out too far - well into 10MHz+ frequencies, which is the LAST thing you want for a domestic audio product. One 5534, OPA134/OPA604 or whatever *should* be all that's needed, unless there's something else going on I know nothing about (if Naim could have saved a penny or two leaving op-amps out they would have done I suspect). My Denon 1520 has two 5534's a side which are well supplied and with large reservoir caps specifically for this stage close by and I believe the absolute phase is inverted, but can't prove it on my current setups.
The whole KISS philosophy makes perfect sense to me now, as the more you chuck in, the more careful you've got to be that the extra 'stuff' doesn't get in the way, and if keeping it simple does the job properly, then why risk making it worse? This is why nelson Pass has overkill products built for loads of money but for decades' of reliable use as the main range and some funky simpler circuits published for free for DIY builders wanting to have a go themselves. Room for everyone.
My QED Digit did benefit hugely from adding a second supply and just a little bit more with some larger caps fitted here and there. It was designed down to a price as a commercial Philips recommended circuit, but fortunately, Philips got the basics right, AVI's Martin Grindrod did a good job drawing out the two sided board and splitting the supplies (output chip - a 5532 two channel one) clarified everything hugely. It' a mess of wires and boxes though, but it's so darned good now...
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 15, 2018 18:28:50 GMT
Good discussion this. I'm a bit jealous of Andrew owing all those DPA players. Getting some Deltec or DPA gear was always my dream for many years, really a great sound. I suppose there is AVI too but not heard anything from that incarnation. I've had a lot of CD players, still got loads. The best was the Technics SLP1200 I got off eBay for £170.It was the BBC version - there are at least 3 versions and they all differ quite bit internally. Mr Whippy on TAS can give you chapter and verse on that. I've had two others since, the one I have now was rebuilt from scratch by Mr W and he's 'voiced' it a bit as well. It's maybe not quite as good as my original BBC but I'd still rate it as one of the best digital sources I've heard, if not the absolute best. And it looks like a cash register! Also had/have that are very good: Sony ESX505, Bang & Olfuson CD6500. And good for under £100 used: Sony XB790QS (does SACD) and Sony CDP791E So lots of Sony, mainly  Also not keen on Marantz (got a 67SE), too coloured for me. Although not heard any of their high end efforts. Rega - have heard one of their top ones (some Egyptian god) in a very accomplished system at Paul's (RFC). Then he gave me a listen to his massively specced-out Garrard 401. The 401 was a lot less coloured than the Rega! So not for me. For a long time I was using a Pioneer DVD 757. Pretty budget bin-end Richer sounds buy. I had someone come round and he sees it and says 'That's what you are using for digital?' The he had a listen and says 'I can't believe that Pioneer sounds that good'. Also had the opposite happen: someone came round for a listen and afterwards was taking a look at the kit, sees the Pioneer and says 'You are not seriously telling me that is what we have been listening to?' He couldn't get over it. He thought it was some serious high end player he'd been enjoying. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 19:22:24 GMT
That would have been a Rega isis! Did the Rega have good bass, Martin?
S.
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 15, 2018 20:33:48 GMT
It sounded like it was trying to hard to be a turntable. Didn't like it. Not a bad sound at all, perfect at what it does, just too soft and warm for my taste.
Can't really be specific about the bass quality because of that. I like it when you can hear the difference between bass guitars when you swap albums, to the point where if you had an experienced bass guitarist there he could name the guitar being used on each one. You can't do that when you have a fuzz or a glow around everything, no matter how 'lovely' it sounds.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 20:38:28 GMT
Was it the valve version of the isis you heard?
S.
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 15, 2018 20:46:14 GMT
I don't know. I'm not even sure which one it was. There is Isis and Osiris and another one?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 20:51:38 GMT
Two ISIS. One with tubes and other is solid state.
S.
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 15, 2018 20:59:42 GMT
I don't know. IIRC it was the second down from top of the range. Don't think it had valves but I'm not 100%
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 21:15:29 GMT
Saturn-R then perhaps. Their bread & butter CD Player is the Apollo-R.
S.
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 15, 2018 22:17:19 GMT
I'm going to get one of these one day. Never heard one mind but that doesn't matter. Pioneer PD91 from about 1992.  |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 16, 2018 7:43:20 GMT
Martin T had one and says he would have another one if he got the chance, so I expect you wouldn’t be disappointed
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 16, 2018 8:38:32 GMT
They always seem to come up for sale just after I've bought something else and am all spent out |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 17, 2018 21:11:14 GMT
I must admit they do look very tempting. I also like the look of their reference series amps.
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 17, 2018 21:47:20 GMT
It's that 'Lexus' look I like about them I think. I've got a Sony ES505 with the wooden end cheeks but it isn't as tasty looking as the PD91.
The other reason is I recall clearly reading a review of the Pioneer in Hi-Fi Review whilst sitting in the DHSS waiting to claim housing benefit. Had about £20 to my name so buying a flagship Jap CD player was just slightly out of my reach. Couldn't imagine that I would ever be in the position to afford one. So getting one now, albeit second hand and 30 years on would be … satisfying. If you know what I mean?
|
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jun 17, 2018 22:06:19 GMT
The valve Isis is a goodie and doesn't try to be anything but eternally musical... The PD91 I once heard at Jimmy's place. Lovely vintage machine built like an out-house. Just compared the ton-up twin supply Digit to the el-cheapo DAC with half decent supply. No contest really, but the modified Digit does have a TIS slung on the end of it and it's rather better than the stock article after splitting the supplies and changing a few caps inside I think |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 17, 2018 22:17:58 GMT
What about Wadia? Anyone ever had a go on one of those? I've not but I'm hoping that the CD will soon decline so much as a medium that people will be leaving high end Yank players out with the trash. Or at least flogging them off for a couple of hundred. I mean you would, wouldn't you?  |
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jun 17, 2018 22:26:39 GMT
The mechs used to be to die for but I remember the sonics as 'HiFi' rather than 'musical' in the same way DCS could be cerebral (whiter than white and blacker than black with little grey-scale in between) with all the kitchen-sink add-ins the circuits had... Whether a different set of cables and some mains isolation would fix the musical brew I don't know.
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 17, 2018 23:11:55 GMT
According to their blurb at least one of the things Wadia concentrate on is the power supplies. That's why they are on my list. But doesn't surprise me to learn they are a bit 'hi-fi' sounding. I quite like that. Heard an enormous Musical Fidelity player once that did that. Sort of too 'crystalline' sounding to be true.
|
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jun 18, 2018 0:10:39 GMT
The mid 80's Sony's (502 and 505es) were a bit similar - kind of whiter than white and almost bleached out, but not quite - and then I heard some players that generated a proper walk-in soundstage if there in the recording and a proper tuneful bass. The PD-91 was one player, the Micro Seiki I have and it's bigger brother was another. Sony followed suit and that DAC they did in the early nineties was excellent. Cheap construction aside, I think that quality has come way down in price these days.
I used to like mid price Denon's, which had a sensible compromise I felt. the once £320 DCD 1015 is a fine sensible case in point I think and it makes a good all-round transport too.
|
|
) the sound was holographic with this player. We had a Linn CD12 for a week to try and into a wide open system, it was incredible, but into a more normal stereo, it sounded small and shrunken. I heard another into an ATC preamp and SCM70A's and the sound was ghastly - bland, dead and 'flat!' 
