Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
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Post by Bigman80 on May 5, 2018 9:19:02 GMT
Go back 20 years and people were skipping decks that now sell for 4 figures. Today the Japanese DDs have been given the recognition they deserve and Garrards have been restored to their former glory. Even Goldring have seen a resurgence.
For those who want to get a bargain and still enjoy great sound, I figure there must be some top flight decks out the going for less than their worth. B&O? Dual? I don't know, but I hope others do and that they can share their knowledge and experience here.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
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Post by Bigman80 on May 7, 2018 21:07:16 GMT
I always wanted to try a Source turntable. I almost bought two off a guy but he changed his mind at the last minute, anyone heard or even owned one?
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Post by dsjr on May 8, 2018 13:39:57 GMT
It used to be beefy and rich toned I recall, but maybe today???
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Post by dsjr on May 8, 2018 13:59:38 GMT
The best Duals are no longer sleepers, but a 1015 or 1216 can still be got cheap if one is prepared to do some work on it. I'm about to try a re-tyred idler on my 1019 so we'll see if I can get the thing to run as quietly through the speakers as I'd like... The best of the idler models in my opinion, were in a different sonic league to the infamous 505 series, which were built much lighter and sounded scrappy in comparison.
I have a 1972 era Beogram 3000 with excellent SP12 cartridge and it's so user-friendly it takes all the fun out of record playing. Place the record, set size on this model (12" and 10" at 33, 7" at 45) and press 'Play.' the arm is rapidly taken to the index point and lowered. Press 'Play' again and the arm lifts and the deck stops. press again and the arm goes back down to where you've set it. Unlike conventional auto decks, the Beograms used half the cam's rotation to cycle, so motion and behaviour seemed rapid. Normal auto decks from Dual for instance, used one complete revolution of the cam for a complete cycle, so are more genteel in operation.
One that may be climbing now is the Philips GA212. Frail build and steel platter may limit cartridge choice a bit, but properly matched up, it sounded excellent! |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
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Post by Bigman80 on May 8, 2018 17:16:22 GMT
Is there a logic behind the numbers on Duals, Dave? I'm a novice and wouldn't even know which ones are well made and which ones aren't, all I know is that the 505 and 503 were real budget fare and the 5000 was a bit better. 700s, 1000s and 1200s are all a bit of a blur to me.
It's hard to tell much from a pic too, because they all look very old fashioned to me and not like the decks I know.
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Post by dsjr on May 8, 2018 19:28:40 GMT
All the classic ones were based on old 'auto-changer' layouts, with a coil sprung heavy steel? re-enforced top plate. The very cheap ones had a form of sub-chassis mounted on a laminated? chipboard plinth and the better ones of these (CS455) live on in a Thorens auto model which sounds too safe and bland to be a serious vinyl contender. The 500's were generally the basic later models, then the 600's in the late 70's and the 700' at the top. the 701 I have and 721 are the real gems and can sound excellent with cartridges way outside of their original purview (Koetsu's, Dynavector's, Rega Apheta 2 - I kid you not, but someone's done it to advantage in his 721) ...
The real endearing classics are the famous idler models - the better 10** and 12** models, can sound superb too if the drive is working right. My 1229 I had from new for some years was amazingly good and currently, the 1019 I use in the workroom is a great vinyl companion with a real sense of drive' to it. ALL of these will need a damned good clean and overhaul of the mechanism, as they're pretty complex and greases harden up. Loads of support on Vinyl Engine and Dualboard.de, but the better known ones are going silly with money now sadly, as indeed are many Lenco's and Thorens...
You know, a Rega Planar One for £250 is a damned good little deck and better for most purposes and people than a cranky old 70's 'classic.' - Just sayin'.....
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
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Post by Bigman80 on May 8, 2018 20:01:47 GMT
I will start watching the a dual 10 and 12 zeros decks. I'm always after a bargain. That last Orbe with NC PSU was picked up for £650!
Did you ever play with the Revolver decks, Dave? I have always had a bit of a soft spot for their easy musicality. The one I picked up,is a redwood up and has the Super arm on it. I think it was £69 or thereabouts. I'd have bought it whatever though because I always wanted to try one with that arm.
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Post by dsjr on May 8, 2018 20:18:18 GMT
We had them (Basik LVX era I seem to remember), I think to sell Rega off in all honesty. The long belt could be an issue I think. I'm sure they're just fine in isolation.
Back to Duals quickly. be VERY careful and do a goodly bit of reading. I've tinkered with auto turntables since I was a kid, but if you're not used to it, they could be a mill-stone! Don't compare with an Orbe or anything that high up the food chain. Most of them are more Rega 3 level...
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
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Post by Bigman80 on May 9, 2018 21:23:29 GMT
Interesting to read that about the Revolvers being there to sell Regas. My impressions when I compared the two in the 80s was that the Rega arm was probably the deciding factor. I felt the Jelco/Revolver arm was better than the Linn one, but I have always disliked the LVX. I'm really keen to hear the deck with the much better Super arm. You rarely see them because they were much more expensive than an LVX and not really a desirable name back then.
Half of me is tempted to tweak the deck, using what I know of the Xerxes. I'm sure the anti vibration mounts Roksan used would be an upgrade. I'm also tempted to dabble with a better power supply for the motor. Then there's the motor mounting, I have a Roksan inspired motor decoupling tweak in my head too.
The other half of me wants to keep it as "stock". I am usually uncomfortable with modding anything because I feel like it's sacrilege in many cases. Time will tell, but it looks like I will actually get the PS-X9 I've been chasing. I already have a Sonata/Xenon MCS and a PS-6750 to my name. The Revolver may well just remain as a lovely collectible. Shame I was too lazy to even listen to the Orbe. I will come to regret that one day.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
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Post by Bigman80 on May 10, 2018 9:01:40 GMT
Does anyone know much about Luxman turntables? Some look really nice but I know very little about them, other than Tim De Paravicini used to work for them. Also that they went "dowmarket" at one point.
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Post by antonio on May 10, 2018 9:18:55 GMT
Yes, I'd like to know about Luxman tt's, I do know they still make expensive amps.
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Post by dsjr on May 10, 2018 9:22:56 GMT
Tim's 70's designs for Luxman were nothing like his EAR designs - thankfully I believe 
SOME Luxman decks were good, but others are a mugs eyeful when you take the bottom off and look underneath. Careful siting is essential for the effects of feedback. Some of these solid plinth decks you can almost play tunes my tapping the plinth when playing - older Regas too...
Martin Colloms was wetting himself over the PD300? which used a suction device to hold the record on the platter. Pain in the arse despite pretty reasonable sonics. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
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Post by Bigman80 on May 10, 2018 11:34:53 GMT
Thanks, Dave. You have such a broad knowledge of so many bits  It wa the PD600 I spotted and which piqued my interest again. Your point about taking the bottom off and getting a bit of a surprise is Something that had crossed my mind. I've been there with other decks. Luxman are definitely a company where the name on the product doesn't tell you a lot. I remember them making some really poorly built stiff at low prices after a change of ownership. I do like the looks of their latest stuff, but it's thousands and I believe it's made in China which is always a concern for me without knowing more about the details of manufacture. |
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Post by dsjr on May 10, 2018 12:24:45 GMT
The current generation big Luxman amps are wonderful, very heavily and inspiringly well built, look the retro part for us oldies, there's no wasted space inside and they SOUND the business too I think. I try to ignore them as they're forever out of my league cost-wise, but seriously, ignore them at your peril... I'm more a Quad Artera or cheaper, NVA man, for solid state and I have a long standing regard for the 606 derived power amps anyway, as they can drive 230W into four ohms and with a decent preamp not necessarily Quad of old (66 onwards are ok), they need apologise to nobody I feel... I feel bad not feeling I can say much about NVA here, as sonically, they're up there with the very best around and the reason for careful speaker cable choice is one of the good reasons why...
The older amps could be good in a lush kind of way, and I agree about the slimline stuff they did in the late 70's losing the magic. I had a T-88V tuner which was horribly muffled, so much I wonder if the eq (de-emphasis) was set up right. A T-12 was awesome and the 115 was pretty good too I recall.
The Luxman decks to be careful of are the cheaper direct drives from the later 70's with integral tonearms and one or two had suede mats to identify the ones I'm thinking of (PD282?).maybe with better feet and a more solid base board to reinforce the plinth 'frame,' they'd be good, I don't know, but as supplied, they fed back badly. This is where I come unstuck because we know so much more about siting, set-up (taking lids of solid base decks when playing and so on) and modern cartridges have moved on a good bit (I'm a confirmed AT fan and the sub £200 models like the 520 and 530 as well as the F7 MC may be saviours of these decks for all I know, as mid and to clarity comes before (artificial?) bass power and slam...
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,071
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Post by Bigman80 on May 11, 2018 1:13:30 GMT
I get a real good feel about the better Luxmans. I love a bargain and I enjoy the hunt too. I tend to have a few things on my radar and then whether or not they come my way depends on me spotting one cheap. I'm now looking at Luxman decks and amps as part of that.
I'm not sure if I misread you, but you're free to talk as much about NVA as you like here. Or any other make for that matter. I got well fed up with the shilling debate that has plagued other forums and decided the easiest way to get it out of the way was to let anyone talk about anything they like, whether they make it, sell it or just love it.
So few of the topics on other forums are about the gear these days. I'm just happy to see anyone discussing hifi.
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Post by dsjr on May 11, 2018 18:05:42 GMT
The thing with NVA for me anyway, is that RD has done to his amp circuit what radio designers used to do I'm humorously told. Build the thing and take bits out until it stops working, then you have the right design just before that point.. Sure there are other good amps in my opinion, but if you're going to put speaker/output protection circuits onto an amp, you have to do it right if the music isn't to suffer and that can come expensive. Also, some top end preamps I've recently seen the innards of, scare me poop-less with their utterly mad complexity. It's just not needed unless you want cachet-laden madness and sonics invariably suffer. I had this with the Krell KSA50S I had for a while. A full 'current amplifier' and I think balanced from input to output, the input transistors alone were a quad? of hot running transistors next to each other, one set for the + signal and t'other for the - this carried all through the large circuit boards to the output stage behind - I never found out how many output transistors there were as they were hidden. I appreciate the large silent toroidal transformer and huge twin 32,000uF caps per channel in the supply, but for simpler speakers it was total overkill. The chap who bought it switched back to an old NVA A30 and well, you can guess the result, the vibe being the Krell had 'gone off.' Not sure about that, but I felt I'd need to enter a refined clique when owning this amp and a proper active preamp (ARC usually to warm up the cool tones) and fancy cables (Transparent Audio Reference) and of course, the speakers weren't good enough - you get the idea. I couldn't afford this anyway so it had to go, the revenue gained going straight back into household expenses rather that more stereo gear!
With NVA you get what you get, and that's a sublime musical presentation with no bloat or stodge that on terms of perceived 'purity' is very reminiscent of a good valve design - no grain or 'edge' at all. Taking all but the essentials out means careful speaker cable choice of course, but the musical rewards and added enjoyment make it all worthwhile and the things ARE generally extremely reliable if used sensibly. Always a gamble when numpties bodge up a stereo, do something daft to cause damage and then deny any wrong-doing (happens all over to any make) but that's business for you.
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